Matrix Games Forums

Space Program Manager Launch Contest Announced!Battle Academy 2 is out now on iPad!A closer look at rockets in Space Program ManagerDeal of the Week - Pride of NationsA new update for Piercing Fortress EuropaNew screenshots for War in the West!Pike & Shot is now available!Server Maintenance Battle Academy 2 gets updated!Deal of the Week: Advanced Tactics Gold
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/22/2013 6:53:52 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1277
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: online
i'd purchased Clay Blair's "Hitler's U-boat War (vol. 1, The Hunters, 1939-1942)" awhile back, but after 80 pages or so it somehow got stuck into a cabinet & i've only this week got it out again.

i was astonished to learn that the U-boat force suffered torpedo-performance problems analagous to those suffered by USN subs in the Pacific:
- unreliable contact detonators
- unreliable magnetic detonators
- unreliable depth-control, the torps would run below their set depth.

while the actual technical faults weren't identical, the practical results were the same - skilled sub commanders would return from patrol in a highly-steamed condition, asking their commanders "why send us to sea w/ ineffective weapons?"
Post #: 1
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/22/2013 9:23:05 AM   
margeorg

 

Posts: 146
Joined: 1/3/2012
Status: offline
Yeah,


the german subs hat tons of chances to sink capital ships during the first year of the war, and had almost no success due to the highly unreliable torpedos with magnetic detonators. As an example during the Narvik sea campaign on April 13th, on 2 separate occasions Warspite did run into a perfect shooting position, but the torps fired were all duds. Similar stuff happened with other BBs, the CV Ark Royal, and several cruisers.

_____________________________

Cheers
Martin

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 2
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/22/2013 10:43:15 AM   
tk208

 

Posts: 92
Joined: 11/6/2006
From: Australia
Status: offline
Yeah excellent books the hunters 39-42 and the hunted 42-45

(in reply to margeorg)
Post #: 3
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/22/2013 11:38:56 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 3932
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: vermont
Status: offline
I seem to remember something about the high latitudes of Northern Norway (and either the relative proximity to the magnetic pole or the strength of earth's magnetic field) having an aggravating negative effect on the German's magnetic exploder.

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 4
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/22/2013 3:30:39 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2520
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
I have seen speculation (sorry, don't remember the references) that either the Germans stole the American design or vice-versa since the two exploder designs were VERY similar as were the faults. The Germans did have even worse problems than the Americans because of the magnetic field vectors in the high latitudes and the American fleet boats rarely hunted that high; most of the subs in the Aleutians were S-boats which used a different torpedo with a totally different (and reliable) exploder design.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 5
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/22/2013 4:55:58 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
Volume 1 of Blair is good. Volume 2 is the most boring pile of dross you can imagine. It's like reading a spreadsheet about bellybutton fluff.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to pompack)
Post #: 6
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/23/2013 6:37:32 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 7240
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
Gunther Prien told Donitz that he “could hardly be expected to fight with a dummy rifle” in reference to the torpedo failures.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 7
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/23/2013 7:59:09 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
And the magnetic exploder failed far earlier than the KM sent its boats into the Arctic. In fact, the U-Boats went into the Norwegian campaign having been assured by the torpedo directorate that the problems had been "fixed".

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 8
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/23/2013 9:15:42 PM   
JeffK


Posts: 5197
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: online
I almost agree with T here.

Silent Victory was a labour of love for Clay Blair, its a fantastic book that weaves the story and the facts. Very Highly Recommended.

Both of the volumes on the Atlantic War just seemed to be a labour. There isnt a story being told, its a series of statistics, short stories about convoys. Maybe this was a very different war from that in the Pacific. Maybe it was a bit rushed so as to be finished before his sad death.

Still, its a must for the shelves even if only for the stats he has assembled.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 9
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/24/2013 12:03:41 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1277
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: online
well, T has a point - much of 'Silent Victory' was kinda formulaic reporting of routine patrols that didn't accomplish much other than downgrading the sub's captain in his commander's eye for 'insufficient aggressiveness'. so i'll assume that his diss of 'U-boat War vol. 2' is a response to more of that.

still, i'm interested in the USN actions of CVE hunter-killer groups against the milch-cows, so i will buy it if i can find it at a reasonable price, & just gloss over the bellybutton lint stuff.

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 10
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/24/2013 12:17:31 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5197
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: online
Misunderstanding here

there are 3 books.

Silent Victory (PTO)

Hitlers UBoat War vol I- The Hunters
Hitlers UBoat War vol II - The Hunted.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 11
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/24/2013 1:03:57 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8626
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I almost agree with T here.

Silent Victory was a labour of love for Clay Blair, its a fantastic book that weaves the story and the facts. Very Highly Recommended.

Both of the volumes on the Atlantic War just seemed to be a labour. There isnt a story being told, its a series of statistics, short stories about convoys. Maybe this was a very different war from that in the Pacific. Maybe it was a bit rushed so as to be finished before his sad death.

Still, its a must for the shelves even if only for the stats he has assembled.


I think it was less a "story" book for him than a careful, statistic-by-statistic building of a case which demolishes the almost universal notion that the U-boats almost beat the British Empire in WWII. That the Battle of the Atlantic was ever in doubt or that Britain was ever against the wall. It's been over ten years since I read them, but I recall very strenuous arguments over this theory while he was still alive. Some of the reviews were scathing. I read it more for the facts of the sub operaitons themselves than to get too deep into the geopolitics of the campaign, but from what I remember his stats looked pretty tight. He built up from the ships and cargoes, not down from a POV of disproving a conclusion.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 12
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/24/2013 2:18:23 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1277
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: online
Blair notes that Churchill was a bit overwrought by the U-boat war, but records that imports to Britain declined steadily during the 39-42 time-frame. near-draconian civil rationing & a major success in repairing damaged transports in UK ports during '41 made a big difference. still, when Churchill wrote that the Battle of the Atlantic was his greatest fear, i'm inclined to take him at his word - the guy had ample opportunity to get seriously frightened by events, but remained steady in guiding the convoy life-lines.


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 13
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/24/2013 4:00:43 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8626
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

Blair notes that Churchill was a bit overwrought by the U-boat war, but records that imports to Britain declined steadily during the 39-42 time-frame. near-draconian civil rationing & a major success in repairing damaged transports in UK ports during '41 made a big difference. still, when Churchill wrote that the Battle of the Atlantic was his greatest fear, i'm inclined to take him at his word - the guy had ample opportunity to get seriously frightened by events, but remained steady in guiding the convoy life-lines.




Yes, but did he have the stats?

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 14
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/24/2013 5:14:37 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1277
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: online
another thing, that really boggles me, is the global scale of the Atlantic war. mebbe not as big in distance as the Pacific war, but it extended from Freetown to Pola to Archangelsk to Argentia, then Trinidad & Sao Paolo got added in. & every item (bootlaces, toothpaste, underpants, bullets, bombs, or 105 arty shells) had to be created from stock, moved to the ports, then loaded on to ships, convoyed to Britain, unloaded, distributed, then reloaded for the D-day assault.

Terminus can moan about how reading some of this history is boring. 's true, 97% of history ain't very interesting, & won't make a good read. but say you spent your war making tires for B-26 bombers, or mebbe you spent your war allocating shipping-space for tires, that's a dull read, too - Terminus can yawn. 'cept that those tires were made, shipped, & fitted to bomber sqns on the front-edge, that needed continuous supply of bombs and underpants, as well as personal mail, tools & toothpaste.

in AE, if you establish a forward base, you've got to push supplies in, and bring the nav support ships.

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 15
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/24/2013 5:15:26 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5197
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: online
Of course, 70 years later we think we know exactly what the situation was.

Clay Blair had the position to sit back with his lists and computers and debunk what the people at the time truly believed.

What he does do is prove taht, except for a blip, that the UBoats were beaten a few months earlier than usually beieved, but of course he has both sides of the ledger to compare.

Something in his books that annoyed me mildly was despite his concern for the UBoat crews was his almost lack of concern for the Merchant Ship crews who suffered and died through the campaign.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 16
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/24/2013 6:25:13 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41377
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

I almost agree with T here.

Silent Victory was a labour of love for Clay Blair, its a fantastic book that weaves the story and the facts. Very Highly Recommended.

Both of the volumes on the Atlantic War just seemed to be a labour. There isnt a story being told, its a series of statistics, short stories about convoys. Maybe this was a very different war from that in the Pacific. Maybe it was a bit rushed so as to be finished before his sad death.

Still, its a must for the shelves even if only for the stats he has assembled.


For that alone, they're worth having. Vol 1 is still more interesting for the story it tells about individual campaigns. Vol 2 is just a long line of "U-xxx sailed out and nothing was ever heard from it again".

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 17
RE: OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic - 1/24/2013 7:10:25 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

Posts: 821
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
I seem to remember something about the high latitudes of Northern Norway (and either the relative proximity to the magnetic pole or the strength of earth's magnetic field) having an aggravating negative effect on the German's magnetic exploder.

That's correct. Besides the latitude, the iron deposits along the bottom of the Norwegian Sea/Coast also had an effect on the magnetic exploders.

It just so happened that Admiral Donitz had a lot more clout with regards to weapons development and was able to push fixes to be made.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 18
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> OT - U-boat war in the North Atlantic Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.103