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Leader Deaths

 
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Leader Deaths - 1/20/2013 7:30:34 AM   
Deserted Fox

 

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Howdy,

Enjoying the game and the improvements that have been ongoing since its release.

However I would request though for WITE 2 that there be an option of turning leader deaths on/off at game start.

In my humble opinion it happens far too much and the Soviets loosing key leaders really hurts them.
In my current game Vautin will go down in history as having great potential but sadly died in Sept 41.

The Russians have a big enough load to push uphill without loosing leaders like Vautin in 41.

I have no idea of the German leaders stats but I suspect they could loose 5 Vautin equivalents and not even notice they were missing.
Post #: 1
RE: Leader Deaths - 1/20/2013 9:32:48 AM   
821Bobo


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Well in my last 3 Axis games, I have lost between turns 3-10 in one Manstein, in another Guderian and in current Kleist. Non of them saw intense fighting or HQ displacement.

(in reply to Deserted Fox)
Post #: 2
RE: Leader Deaths - 1/20/2013 9:54:19 AM   
Deserted Fox

 

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Thanks Bobo for illustrating my point.

I understand the design concept behind this....but its a bit over the top.

I read Hitler dismissed 35 generals during the winter of 41. How many German generals on average get dismissed in wite in 1941?

I have no idea, but I hazard a guess its a lot less than 35. Plus dismissal is fairly lenient..you can always pay APs to put them back in command.

An option Guderian would have relished in real life.

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 3
RE: Leader Deaths - 1/20/2013 11:28:22 AM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1997
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You do realise leaders where not immune to death? It happened due to combat but also heart failure as a lot of leaders were middle aged men...

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Deserted Fox)
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RE: Leader Deaths - 1/20/2013 12:08:31 PM   
Deserted Fox

 

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I appreciate this as fact. I don't see anywhere in my post stating Generals were immortal.....thus your comments are a tad puzzling to me.

But none of the commanders named above died in ww2 for any reason.

My experience is that it happens tooooo frequently in games compared to what actually happened. Thus I would like the option to turn it off.
If such an option were available...then you would be free to play with generals dying and I would be free to do the opposite.

I don't believe my request is too hard. We already have options for FOW etc. I also feel confident I am not a lone voice in this regard.

On the other hand, German generals being dismissed was an all to frequent occurrence, but I suspect this is underplayed by the exact same rules.

Would someone who has played quite a number of games as the Germans up till Feb 1942 like to tell us how many generals have been dismissed in this time frame.

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
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RE: Leader Deaths - 1/20/2013 2:09:09 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1997
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
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With regard to dismissal, it used to be a lot worse (game out of the box) and they have reduced it quite a bit as people really disliked losing commanders (and having them executed), much the same as you dislike commanders dying.

Perhaps they'll consider making it optional for WitW.

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Deserted Fox)
Post #: 6
RE: Leader Deaths - 2/23/2013 10:59:03 AM   
Deserted Fox

 

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New turn and received a message.

General Gustav Ionson has been arrested and executed.

I assumed it was from military incompetence.

He had zero wins and one, yes a single loss against his name. So I guess that rules out military incompetence.

Any other thoughts as to why he was executed?

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 7
RE: Leader Deaths - 2/23/2013 11:06:52 AM   
Cannonfodder


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He had his hands in the cookie jar?

Edit - low political rating and an unlucky roll probably. In real life he seemed to have been executed in 1942..

For your info stanger things happen.. In my soviet game Pavlov is still alive and in command of the western front in winter 1942..

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 2/23/2013 11:09:03 AM >


_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Deserted Fox)
Post #: 8
RE: Leader Deaths - 2/23/2013 11:33:56 AM   
Deserted Fox

 

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Hi Cannon,

Not having a dig at you mate, and I appreciate your comments.

But shouldn't this event be somewhere in the realms of being realistic?

What Russian/German General was executed for losing one battle?

This is totally unrealistic...not even in the realms of possibility...
thus I continue my crusade for an option at start...to turn this off.

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 9
RE: Leader Deaths - 2/24/2013 8:39:10 AM   
randallw

 

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Some of the Soviet guys have a political rating of 1; in real life they were doomed by their political activity ( or just the suspicion of it ). Battlefield losses simply were the straw that broke the camel's back.

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RE: Leader Deaths - 3/29/2013 12:11:30 PM   
cpt flam


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some more news
Pavlov been arrested and executed on turn 78 (december 42)
he was commanding SW front

(in reply to randallw)
Post #: 11
RE: Leader Deaths - 3/29/2013 2:52:16 PM   
Mehring

 

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I think it's a great feature, and I wouldn't want to lose it. Either players need to be informed of the distance they should generally be keeping their commanders from the front line or it just needs tweaking down a bit. I lost two of my best leaders in three weeks. Neither was on the front line, neither subject to air/ground attack, though a German recce plane did observe one of their hexes.

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to cpt flam)
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RE: Leader Deaths - 3/29/2013 10:19:42 PM   
Denniss

 

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So keep your recce planes circling around enemy HQ and the enemy commander gets a heart attack because neither AAA nor fighters are able to bring them down?

(in reply to Mehring)
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RE: Leader Deaths - 3/29/2013 10:32:31 PM   
Mehring

 

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The pilot was exceptionally ugly and he flew too close to HQ?

_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Denniss)
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RE: Leader Deaths - 3/30/2013 9:07:29 AM   
randallw

 

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The recon pilot let the general know that he scratched up a favorite car of the general when he was young.

(in reply to Mehring)
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RE: Leader Deaths - 3/30/2013 2:54:11 PM   
Denniss

 

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Or he dropped some Easter-eggs while flying above the HQ and hit the general.

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RE: Leader Deaths - 3/31/2013 3:24:35 PM   
Mehring

 

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Well, all plausible explanations, but explain this one-

"Southern Ural Military District commander Alexandr Chernikov has been KILLED in action."

The nearest enemy unit to the HQ has got to be 70 hexes away. Yes, the HQ has an airborne corps, as well as some other ground and air units attached that are closer. Was he visiting them? They weren't anywhere near the action either.



_____________________________

“The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.”
¯ Thomas Jefferson

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 17
RE: Leader Deaths - 3/31/2013 3:35:07 PM   
SigUp

 

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Well, just assume he died in a plane crash or so. Hube and Dietl both died in a plane crash.

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RE: Leader Deaths - 3/31/2013 4:38:47 PM   
rmonical

 

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One reason we do not know of all of the historical leader deaths is the ones who dies had less impact on history. Do keep in mind health and transportation (particularly air transport) as causes of death.

One issue I have is the notion of dismissal by Hitler/Stalin. In general, the players assume those roles. So GHC cannot dismiss a leader for violating the no retreat edict because there was none to violate. Similarly, SHQ would not dismiss leaders for insufficient aggressiveness in 1941 because SHQ is generally not particularly aggressive in 1941.

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 19
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