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The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd Kharkov

 
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The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd Kharkov - 1/20/2013 6:09:48 AM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Hello! I will be playing the AI on these settings.



I will be Germany. I am making this AAR so the fine and amazing players can help me with what the hell i'm doing wrong.
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RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/20/2013 6:17:01 AM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Turn 1 Soviets

As you can see they have decimated my line



My plan is to close that pocket of advance in the middle and push them back for this turn. Screenshot of my turn coming soon

(also if anyone knows how to make these screenshots smaller let me know, I know breaking tables annoys people a lot :(


(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 2
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/20/2013 6:55:48 AM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Ok so my first goal is to close that gap



So I will use a combination attack of arty, air power to weaken the 253 stack and then attack with the 62nd and 108.

I'm not sure which are the bombers. I think they are the fat planes so I will pick those.




Ok here we go



I lost the screen shot of the results unfortunately and don't know how to get them back, but this is me moving into position to attack that stack now that they have been artyed and aired



This is what i'm attacking with...



Here we go



Somehow I win. I am happy

I cut them off, but I am a little mad at myself because of the empty hexes I leave the AI with. Also you can see that I made a few strategic transfers.



Now onto my second problem



The 337th is advancing and I need to stop that.

I decide to close that gap by attacking the 337th hex with 2 units

Arty and Air attack again, no need to show that. Except I realize I have no Arty. The air units do okay and its time to attack



I attack with this and cross my fingers



I win and cut them off.

This is just part 1 of my first turn. I have to walk my dog (half husky half lab mix) but I will be back shortly.

In the mean time. I have more options to address this turn which are:

What the hell do I do with the bottom



And the top


Part 2 of my first turn will come soon. Thanks for reading so far. Please rip me to shreds and give advice and suggestions. Thanks :D

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 3
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/20/2013 9:17:14 AM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Alright I am back with part 2 of turn 1. I will deal with the south first

I see that the 51st is the weakest link. Plus it has a road and a railroad, so I am thinking if I cut them off there I can disrupt something at least. I will attack them.



From the forums and AARs i've read, as always, Arty and Air first before attack.

I should point out that I don't know what those little numbers mean by the way, if someone could tell me i'd greatly appreciate it



The bombing is done and I remember players using cards, so I will have Mackensen take charge of a unit for a spirited attack. Vic by the way if you ever read this, can you put in a button that lets you review the battles that have taken place on your turn just to see them? Like a history button? Thanks <3



Ok the card is played and we will attack



Only one group can attack and I don't know why but here we go



Luckily I win.

Here is where I screw up a lot in this game, movement. As you see I messed up and now the 51st can do whatever



As you see from my previous screenshot, i moved the up the 14th and now I attack again, I am trying to encircle them or at least cut their line in half. I dunno. I'm the worst general ever.




I win and split the 14th up to encircle or at least screw up their southern line. I think this is a tactic!



I also eye their 106th



And just tell myself, you know what. They are weak there. why not. I think i'm being to aggressive. But I want to slow them down somehow.

I miss the screenshot but I end up out of AP and retreat.

I think i'll leave the south alone. Time to do something up north.

As we go north, I see the Soviets have the advantage.



So I will just move the 44th down and wait for their 124th to abuse me on their turn.



I think about it some more and make some movements and strategic movements to prep my defense. I move the 113th, 521st and 670th up (or down as would be the case)

Now onto the top for real



I am boned here and I know it. So I will prepare my defenses as best as I can



I move up the various units and use my HQ cards to entrench. I hope this works

This is the map before I pass the turn:





I pass the turn and here is what the Soviets do





I sigh because I am an idiot and they wreck me. I will post turn 2 tomorrow. I must go to bed now. It's 4am!

Again, any hints, tips, strategies, anything. Please post and help me!

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 4
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/20/2013 4:38:30 PM   
parusski


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heyhellowhatsnew whined:

quote:

I must go to bed now. It's 4am!


Bed? Since it was 4am what was the point of wasting time going to bed?? You may as well have kept at it...you were so close to victory, but you let something like sleep get in your way.



_____________________________

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(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 5
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/20/2013 4:53:13 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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edit:x

< Message edited by heyhellowhatsnew -- 1/22/2013 10:39:23 AM >

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 6
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/20/2013 5:21:48 PM   
**budd**


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Sorry about your dog, hope its nothing serious.

I also struggle with large wargames. Here's some links, with some info that might help you.

http://www.wargamer.com/forums/posts.asp?t=486341&h=secrets+to+operational&pg=1#486341

second link he distills the info that helped him and uses the first DC game to illustrate.

http://sugarfreegamer.com/?p=943

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*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 7
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/20/2013 5:36:43 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Thank you for the links. I appreciate them. Is there anything that I have shown so far that I could have done differently or better?

(in reply to **budd**)
Post #: 8
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/21/2013 8:06:42 AM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Ok, posting my turn 2 right now:

Where we last left our Nazi heroes:





They were threatened by the giant Soviet doom stack consisting of the 21st and 270th in the middle making its way seemingly towards Krasnograd.



In fact, the whole middle looks like it may explode with Red forces any minute. I need to think of something and quick.



So I decide on bombing and attacking the 270th to cut off the 21st tank division



I barely win.. phew



I move the 23rd and 3rd down to the middle for support.



I also move down the security forces from OKH to protect the HQ at Krasnograd

Onto the south:



As you can see, the 100th, 60th, 97th, and 384th are about to put a boot in that ass (I hope, i'm getting cocky and that is probably bad)

I start with the 100th

Arty bombed and attacked



Yup, too cocky

Part 2 of Turn 2 Germany coming up soon

< Message edited by heyhellowhatsnew -- 1/21/2013 8:07:17 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/21/2013 9:01:07 AM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Part 2 of Turn 2 for Germany:

After the failed attack, I decide that i'll use the 100th to attack the 333rd and the 97th to attack the 335th



Here is the result:



The 100th lost, but the 60th pushed back the 51. I make some movements up north because I plan on taking the town next. I hope.

Onto the next front:



The 226th, you hex, give it to me.

The attack is successful and we end up with this after moving some units around



I play some entrench cards as well. This is the map before I pass the turn:




And this is it after I pass the turn.




****. Please help. Please help me :(

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 10
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 10:32:43 AM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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So its 4:30am, no replying posts with help, no sleep and I have to go to work in 2 and a half hours...

What better time to do turn 3!

Turn 3 for Germany:

When we last left our incompetent heroes:




The Soviets broke through our line because I left a gap open. Don't do that. Don't be an idiot like me please.




Now Walther Heitz,the HQ of the 6th army and Krasnograd are in big trouble. We must resolve this first.

There are 25 soviet tanks and 1400 cavalry units surrounding the HQ so far.



I move the security forces back onto the HQ hex and move the 105th to the 2nd's flank.

Now I need to decide which is the greater threat. It's the tanks imho. So lets bomb them.

There are no artillery units nearby, so we can only use planes. Great.

I also split up the 3rd to make a new line so the soviets can't break through north



The idea is to destroy the tank division and cut off their 2nd and use the 213th security forces to stop their advance..

Ok here we go.. Attack tank time.



Phew, they are broken



The end result is a new line that is created to block any advance. Heitz uses an entrench card to make it harder for them to break through hopefully when the soviets play their turn.

Now onto the parts of my plan that I think are actually working



The Soviets really didn't do much on the bottom, so now it's time for me to take Barenkowo.

Arty and Air do its job and now its time to attack



Wootles! We win

Now time to re position are troops



I think long and hard on this. I want the Donetz, but I don't want to leave Slawj exposed. I'm thinking of whether or not to be patient :/

But before I decide on that for this turn, there was another Soviet break through the line



Same thing, Arty and Air. Now the attack



Another win! They are defeated. Now to reinforce that line.



There's not much I can do than this. Walther von-gibbergabber (there are a lot of german officers named Walther apparently?) plays a defense card to help out.

Up north you can see I am moving the 389th closer and closer. I would like to make a counter offensive and take Woltzchanks



Ok, back to decide whether or not to be aggressive down south or pass the turn



I can't help myself and decide to be aggressive. Cross your fingers



I win!! and I do some unit adjustment. I'm hoping that my attacks in the South cause the Soviets to back off their offensive, then rock them in the north and counter attack in the middle.

I play my cards and this is the map before I pass my turn:




And this is what it looks like when the Soviets have moved




It's not as bad this time, they do a lot of re-positioning and only make a few attacks. It seems like they are trying to get to Chugulev now.

As always, please post tips, strategies, angry posts, something, anything. Please help

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 11
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 11:39:18 AM   
Bonners


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Not a lot going wrong there really. Early Kharkov always looks scary but the Soviets soon run out of steam and you have now weathered the storm. Obviously you have been having to use anything available to make attacks in the early game, but from now on I'd be more picky. Only make attacks in clear terrain with German units with high levels of readiness and APs. I notice you've also been using your HQ units and engineers to attack; that is fine when you're desperate, but now you are starting to get reinforcements I think you're better off saving them for their main functions.

There is no need to attack across the line any more so start using your artillery and aircraft to support most initial attack you make each turn.

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 12
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 11:41:39 AM   
Bonners


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As the 44th infantry has managed to keep a bridgehead across the river I'd also be looking to reinforce that area over the river with panzers. It is good clear attacking terrain to try and cut the attacking Soviet forces off. It is a long time since I've played it, so this strategy depends on you having time to move your panzers into position.

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Post #: 13
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 11:51:19 AM   
Bonners


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Use your fighter units (JG and ZG) to wipe the Soviet air force from the sky before you make any attacks with your KG bombers. Use the KG bombers against Soviet infantry and use your Stukas to pick off the tank units.

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Post #: 14
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 11:53:46 AM   
Bonners


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Sorry for repeat posting but I keep noticing stuff. Your individual artillery units are way behind the frontlines, you need to get them moving up, remember, for full efficiency your artillery needs to be stationary before firing. Also once they've fired, providing they dont move you need four turns for them to re-stock for another full barrage.

(in reply to Bonners)
Post #: 15
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 12:48:57 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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No need to apologize for repeat posting. Please post as much as possible. I had NO idea about the artillery stuff. In fact I had no idea about anything you just posted. You are helping a lot. If you notice something please please please post it. You are amazing I owe you 50 beers

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Post #: 16
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 12:54:06 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Should I finish off the units that I've cut off (the 21st, the 2nd, 337th) or leave them there?

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RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 1:23:14 PM   
Bonners


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heyhellowhatsnew

Should I finish off the units that I've cut off (the 21st, the 2nd, 337th) or leave them there?

Individual choice really. If they're blocking off a rail line or road then probably best to finish off. In a campaign I'd finish them all off anyway, but in the Kharkov scenario time is limited IIRC so if they're not in the way I would leave them be. If you've got enough recon points check to see how much readiness they have. If it is below 20 then the chances are that their APs will also be very low and they wont be able to move, so you could leave them be - they wont recover their readiness or APs as they are out of supply.

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
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RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 2:11:02 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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Ahh ok... do you know what this means? The -50% things? Also should I rest my plane groups or is it okay to have them attack every turn?

(in reply to Bonners)
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RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 2:35:28 PM   
Bonners


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The SchG is a dive-bombing group, basically all the non Stuka divebombers. The JG is the fighter unit. It has 100 readiness so would normally be okay to fly. However it is a rain turn so its attack, defence and movement values are all reduced by 50%. Every player has their own strategy for attacking with planes. As a general rule of thumb I like to keep a stack fairly high. That JG units only has 35 planes so I would normally combine it with another unit to launch an attack. Each player has different tactics as I said, another tactic, especially if you think the Soviet airforce is weak is to just do your fighter attacks with one units at a time, more risky, but means you get greater coverage.

Also my own preference is not to attack at all in rain turns as it rapidly reduces the readiness of your units, again, other players will have different tactics. I use rain turns to rest my units up ready for the next attack.

On a clear weather turn the first air movement I do will be to pick a clear hex away from Soviet units just behind their frontlines and ttack it with fighter. Keep on repeating with all your fighter units. This should hten use up most of the Soviet fighters in interception duties, leaving your bombers and divebombers to concentrate on the ground forces.

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RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 2:46:19 PM   
jonny211

 

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Hi HHWN,

In a mud turn air units suffer the attacking (red) and defensive (blue) penalties. I think their range is cut as well.

Try and catch the Russian fighters at their airfields (town hexes), Izium may be a good place to start. Attack with fighter units for maximum carnage.

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 21
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 3:13:50 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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jonny211 and Bonners you have no idea how much i'm slapping my forehead right now because i'm like "Oh God i'm such an idiot, these posts are so brilliant." I have no idea why I never thought of attacking russian fighters at their airfields (facepalm) or that SchG and JG were different classes for different things. I read the historical descriptions and I was like oh okay, i guess they're all kinda bombers and used them to attack any hex that I was planning on attacking regardless of what the enemy had.

Since this turn is heavy snow, I should just focus on repostioning my units to prepare for the next attacks for next turn?

Also you'll notice that I never used recon, because I forgot how. I keep telling myself before I start a turn to look it up in the manual but I keep forgetting.

One more thing:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bonners

As the 44th infantry has managed to keep a bridgehead across the river I'd also be looking to reinforce that area over the river with panzers. It is good clear attacking terrain to try and cut the attacking Soviet forces off. It is a long time since I've played it, so this strategy depends on you having time to move your panzers into position.


So I attack enemy hexes with infantry and then use my tanks to advance through the enemy hex i just broke through?

(in reply to jonny211)
Post #: 22
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 3:26:05 PM   
Bonners


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heyhellowhatsnew

jonny211 and Bonners you have no idea how much i'm slapping my forehead right now because i'm like "Oh God i'm such an idiot, these posts are so brilliant." I have no idea why I never thought of attacking russian fighters at their airfields (facepalm) or that SchG and JG were different classes for different things. I read the historical descriptions and I was like oh okay, i guess they're all kinda bombers and used them to attack any hex that I was planning on attacking regardless of what the enemy had.

Since this turn is heavy snow, I should just focus on repostioning my units to prepare for the next attacks for next turn?

Also you'll notice that I never used recon, because I forgot how. I keep telling myself before I start a turn to look it up in the manual but I keep forgetting.

One more thing:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bonners

As the 44th infantry has managed to keep a bridgehead across the river I'd also be looking to reinforce that area over the river with panzers. It is good clear attacking terrain to try and cut the attacking Soviet forces off. It is a long time since I've played it, so this strategy depends on you having time to move your panzers into position.


So I attack enemy hexes with infantry and then use my tanks to advance through the enemy hex i just broke through?


If there are any weak units around, then yes attack on the rain turn. I dont fly recon that much TBH, I have better uses for my aircraft. There is recon available to a limited degree anyway. Depending on the strength of your units you will be able to see some details of the opposing Russian units, put simply, the more units you have nearby the more details you'll be able to see on the Russian units.

As for attacking, it depends really. If it a clear hex then I will use panzers as they will generally crush Russian infantry and breakthrough the line quicker, that is why I was suggesting moving panzers to that point, there are some clear hexes you can fight through and hopefully break the Russian line. General rule of thumb for me is cites and fortifications attack with infantry supported by Stugs, across rivers attack with infantry, occasionally supported by tanks if I'm desperate and for clear hexes that is where your tanks come into their own. Break up the enemy entrenchment first with air and artillery and then blast on through with the tanks. Where possibly I like to attack with a whole panzer division intact, so I have the two motorized infantry regiments and the tank regiment attacking together.

I know the symbols are confusing as they are slightly different to the normal symbols, but you should also note that each German division (whether panzer or infantry) has a fourth unit which is an artillery unit. Obviously this units doesnt go into the attack, but blasts with artillery first. Again, you need to check its supply level to make sure it can do the full barrage effect.

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 23
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 3:37:11 PM   
Reconvet

 

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As I'm not familiar with this scenario just a few general tipps:

I see you used a panzer regiment to attack an urban hex. Not ideal, as tanks get their attack value halved doing this. Use them - and risk them taking casualties - on open terrain only if the situation allows it, as they are your best overrun tool (they have the necessary speed for pursuing and breaking weakened retreated enemy units). If you play longer scenarios like Case Blue or Trappenjagd in a pbem, the Axis player should be very careful not to burn them out too soon, as the replacement rate for German tanks is very low. So I'd strongly suggest to tackle urban/hill/forrest hexes with infantry only whenever possible.

In general you have got the hang of how and where to attack, but down south you got a very bloody nose attacking a hill hex. There you probably attacked without reducing the entrenchment level enough. The enemy defends longer due to more slowly taking casualties when nicely entrenched, so you can do your attacking forces a huge favour if you soften up urban/hill/forrest hexes more thoroughly, as your chance to win will be significantly higher and your own losses lower (the sooner the enemy retreats or breaks in a battle, the better for you). Softening up a hex with levelbombers and artillery does both lower entrenchment AND has a chance to disrupt defenders (white figures in the column where losses - red - show up), and disrupted defenders don't fire back.

So if you want to get a nice kill and win ratio with your attacks, don't attack when you don't have a good feeling after inspecting both attacking and defending forces
a) for their relative readiness levels (don't attack well rested defenders when your troops have been driven too hard - my regiments hardly ever attack with readiness lower than 85),
b) supply (whenever possible don't attack with supply lower than 1, like this enemies seem to take higher casualties) and
c) remaining action points (the lower the action point level of your regiments is, the sooner they'll stop firing at their enemies, and I personally really hate not to take a hex because my attackers ran out of action points...).

Sorry for this wall of text, I'll hand you back your AAR now.


Edit: Bonners beat me with panzer infos, I really should resort to shorter posts or type faster...

< Message edited by Reconvet -- 1/22/2013 3:40:23 PM >


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Post #: 24
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 3:46:54 PM   
Reconvet

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heyhellowhatsnew
...
Since this turn is heavy snow, I should just focus on repostioning my units to prepare for the next attacks for next turn?
...


Just another sidenote: Moving and attacking in mud (heavy rain/snow) costs your units more AP and readiness, so be careful with how far you move them. Make some tests for yourself and compare the effects of moving different unit types in mud/nonmud turns. During mud turns I hardly ever move my units more than 1 hex (possible exception motorized/mechanized units along rails and roads).

< Message edited by Reconvet -- 1/22/2013 3:52:14 PM >


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Post #: 25
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 5:45:47 PM   
wodin


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Your brave..I'm reasonably experienced wargamer but never really get on with large scenarios..I found the linked campaign to be the best in this game for my preferences.

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Post #: 26
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 6:44:56 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

quote:

ORIGINAL: heyhellowhatsnew
...
Since this turn is heavy snow, I should just focus on repostioning my units to prepare for the next attacks for next turn?
...


Just another sidenote: Moving and attacking in mud (heavy rain/snow) costs your units more AP and readiness, so be careful with how far you move them. Make some tests for yourself and compare the effects of moving different unit types in mud/nonmud turns. During mud turns I hardly ever move my units more than 1 hex (possible exception motorized/mechanized units along rails and roads).


No, the purpose of this AAR really is to ask the community (beg the community really) to help me figure out what i've done wrong and how I can improve. This is a knowledgeable and great community and I thought instead of asking general questions, if I made it into an AAR, you would all be able to point out my mistakes so I can learn!

Please everyone keep posting and pointing out my errors! I am in all of your debts and owe you all so many beers.

One (really stupid) question

you see in this pic



What do those numbers mean? for example, the most right unit is part of the 106th, but below it it says 24. What does the 24 mean?

(in reply to Reconvet)
Post #: 27
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 6:50:25 PM   
heyhellowhatsnew


Posts: 281
Joined: 4/19/2012
From: New York
Status: offline
Also, as I advance, should I be moving my HQ up too?

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 28
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 8:09:21 PM   
Bonners


Posts: 470
Joined: 8/24/2012
From: Stockport, UK
Status: offline
Your units need to be in range of their parent HQ, there are two ways to check this. One, if you click on the unit and go into the details tab you will see one bit of information which states 'HQ power', you want this to ideally be at 100% which shows the unit is in range of its HQ. The other way to check is to click on the HQ unit and all its subordinate units will then be highlighted. You will also see a green overlay on the map, this is the range of the HQ. At the edges of its range you will see other colours, which show that the units are on the edge of the HQ's range. Why is this important? Well go back to the details tab and look at the figures under the HQ power stat; depending on the strength of the HQ unit there will be a combat modifier - this can be quite high especially for some of the German HQ units.

The big number on each unit is to give an idea of the raw numbers left in the unit. It is combination of its infantry, tanks, guns, transport etc... I think the actual breakdown is somewhere in the manual, but although this number is important I'm always looking at things like readiness, experience, morale and integrity as mroe important factors in judging a units strength.

(in reply to heyhellowhatsnew)
Post #: 29
RE: The "What am I doing wrong AAR" for 2nd K... - 1/22/2013 9:23:23 PM   
Reconvet

 

Posts: 353
Joined: 1/17/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Your brave..I'm reasonably experienced wargamer but never really get on with large scenarios..I found the linked campaign to be the best in this game for my preferences.


Where and how to find pleasure is a very individual thing. Large scenarios do eat away larger amounts of time, that's for sure. I have a great time learning from my mistakes, and seeing my plans - or plan changes which were forced upon me by my opponent or by a competent AI - fall into place is extremely rewarding. More so in larger scenarios, where I find myself pondering over where and how to commit scarce resources to achieve what you intend to. I really encourage everybody to give these larger scenarios a try, because a pbem with somebody who is at a comparable spot on the learning curve can really multiply the fun you have.

_____________________________

The biggest threat for mankind is ignorance.


(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 30
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