Matrix Games Forums

Come and see us during the Spieltagen in Essen!New Screenshots for Pike & ShotDeal of the Week Command: Modern Air/Naval Operations WOTYCommand: Modern Air/Naval Operations WOTY is now available!Frontline : The Longest Day Announced and in Beta!Command gets Wargame of the Year EditionDeal of the Week: Pandora SeriesPandora: Eclipse of Nashira is now availableDistant Worlds Gets another updateHell is Approaching
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: HQ/SU Bug

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Tech Support >> RE: HQ/SU Bug Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 2/5/2013 2:44:51 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 4878
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline
AFAIK Joel has been checking turns regularly and has not been able to reproduce any of the issues MichaelT is seeing.

_____________________________

We don't stop playing games because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing games - Anon.

WitE Alpha/Beta Tester

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 91
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 2/7/2013 7:39:47 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
In the Michael T vs Pelton AAR game there were several bugs that came up during the past 5-6 turns. They were:

1) Some Soviet HQs unexplainably moved 5-10 hexes to the rear. This was the first oddity that happened in the game, and it also happened again on the last turn played when we were closely following each save made, but it could not be repeated.
2) Soviet sapper units attached to combat units en masse moved to be attached to HQs. This happened at least twice, once either with the first HQ move, or a turn later, and once a couple of turns after this.
3) The Soviet Southwestern Front and several air command HQs disbanded. This happened once, sometime after the first Soviet HQ move, IIRC.
4) Many Soviet air groups moved back to the national reserve. IIRC this happened twice, once while we were watching the saves, but it could not be repeated.

All four of these strange bugs could not be explained by any normal code, whether for the human or AI players. Because this was a server game, it was very difficult to collect saves at every step. For the final two turns Michael and Pelton were contacting me at each step so I could download the latest saves. Unfortunately on the two occasions where we thought we might be able to recreate the bug from saves (items 1 and 4), we didn’t have the right saves to pin it down to either a logistics phase or during player movement and the bugs did not recreate when we just ended the turn.

In the last case which was our attempt to repeat item number 1, we had the save at the end of the Soviet turn but did not have a save at the start of the German turn because Pelton had loaded in the game and made a couple of moves before saving. Had we had a save right at the beginning of the turn we could have said for sure if it was happening without German player input. Unfortunately, the process of downloading, saving, and contacting us before going on is very tedious. It’s a lot to expect that it will go off flawlessly. The interesting item was that in the few moves Pelton made during his last turn, he had attacked a partisan unit, and the combat report listed the 1st Rifle Division as the attacker. This unit existed on the Soviet side. Normally due to a display glitch you don’t get an attacker listed when attacking partisan units. The fact that it listed the 1st Rifle Division as the attacker (when by the moves it was clearly an attack by a security division) is indicative of some other kind of corruption. Compounding the difficulty of repeating this particular bug, Pelton had build some Fortified units on top of and next to where the partisan unit had been before it was attacked. He couldn’t say exactly what he did during this move, and I tried many combinations but could not get the problem to reappear (the problem of the Soviet HQ’s moving to the rear).

So in two cases we had pre-saves but were not able to recreate any of the bad bugs. Given the kinds of problems, without a way to recreate the bug, there’s no way to fix it. Since these bugs have not been reported in any other game, it’s very possible this is due to some kind of data corruption that has happened, which we cannot explain. In theory it could be game or server related, although Matrix has said that it’s unlikely to be caused by the server. The problems did start happening during the few weeks when Matrix was having server issues in January, but it’s hard to see how this could have led to the bugs we saw in the game.

If you see one of these bugs in one of your games, please stop immediately and notify us. If your game is not on the server, if you have saves going back several turns then we can look at these saves to try to find a cause. If it is on the server we can only go back one player-turn so best not to save your game, just contact us and stop your move.

I don’t really expect these things to show up again, but there’s no way to know. I appreciate Michael T and Pelton’s help at trying to get to the bottom of these problems, and I’m sorry we weren’t able to resolve the issue and save their game. I had been looking forward to seeing how it came out.


_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 92
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 2/8/2013 10:18:24 PM   
Marquo


Posts: 1346
Joined: 9/26/2000
Status: offline
Perhaps problems could arrive if players are using different versions/updates? Would it be possible to program the game so that files executed under different versions, even partially so, will not process?

Marquo

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 93
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 2/12/2013 9:18:49 AM   
Karri

 

Posts: 802
Joined: 5/24/2006
Status: offline
Wasn't there are issue of AI moving player units at some earlier patch? Could this not be the cause?

(in reply to Marquo)
Post #: 94
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 2/12/2013 4:53:14 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
Anything's possible, but Gary couldn't find any code that would do some of these things for the AI player (moving HQs back but not units, disbanding certain HQs). If the AI doesn't do it for itself, it's not likely to do them for a human player. The difficulty is that usually we find and fix these kinds of bugs when we have a pre-save that allows us to see the behavior in action. We were never able to duplicate any of these bugs from a pre-save (and getting the pre-saves was a royal pain since they were on the server and only a fwe are kept around at any time).

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Karri)
Post #: 95
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/6/2013 6:56:27 PM   
821Bobo


Posts: 415
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: online
It seems I am suffering from this bug too.
Didnt check SU units, however my Army HQs were displaced in the same matter as Michaels.
Its server game Peltonx - 821Bobo

I have one "possible" explanation. For past couple of turns, I was short of vehicles(mud and snow turns). It was something like 180k needed and I had only 150k. This turn after HQs were displaced it is 130k needed and 150k on hand. It is possible that game engine force moved HQs closer to rails?

< Message edited by 821Bobo -- 3/6/2013 7:09:14 PM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 96
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/6/2013 9:00:46 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2384
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Well, well, this is very interesting. @ Bobo I also have a feeling it is truck related because I saw the same thing. Perhaps in bad weather the AI is trying to do something to alleviate the truck shortage problem. Also in my game (against Pelton) in the last turn I had I saw that I had 10,000 trucks damaged/destroyed in one turn. I have no idea how that could have happened.

If this bug can be found and fixed I will be very happy and my mission to steamroll Pelton can resume.

Strange it is another Pelton game.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 97
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/6/2013 9:47:19 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1916
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
This is actually a good thing. This means that the bug can be traced and squashed...

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 98
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/7/2013 1:29:32 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
I'm very sorry to hear about that actually. Given it's a server game, I'm not sure what we can do about this. In order to trap a bug we need to pin down exactly when it happened and have pre-saves that allow us to recreate it. With the Pelton vs MichaelT game, we were never able to pin it down and make it repeat. We tried stepping through a turn with us grabbing every save made, but because Pelton had loaded in the turn and made a few moves before we were told to grab the save, we couldn't say for sure that the bug didn't happen because of some action during the German turn that we could not duplicate. I will ask Matrix if there's anyway to have every save stored off instead of always having the latest save overwrite the last one made by the same player. If we could get that capability then at least we might be able to pin down when this problem is happening.

I see that this game is on turn 76. The problems started in the other game around turn 88, IIRC. The vehicles shouldn't have any impact on this, and as I said before Gary is at a loss because there is no code that is designed to move a HQ backwards. What we really need is a PBEM game or AI game that has similar problems where we can get a string of saves.

Since we had trouble getting all the saves the last time, I'm reluctant to try to do the same thing again in this case. Althought it's not good for Pelton, I'm hoping it's something with his setup since he's been the German player in both cases. I realize that's wishful thinking on my part. As I said, I'll ask Matrix if there's something that can be done to save off all the saves automatically and will let you know what I find out.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 99
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/7/2013 1:42:26 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2384
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Joel is there no way you can convert a server game to a regular PBEM or Hotseat? Simply to provide a test vehicle.

Also I am happy to try again with this as long as Pelton can stick to the protocols needed to track it down. Maybe Matrix could just keep all saves from these two games affected?



_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 100
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/7/2013 2:31:28 PM   
rrbill

 

Posts: 588
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline
Hmmm... now seeing "relocated" HQ pieces following AI turn (playing Russia vs AI, GC '44.) Began to notice this last week and only now found this thread again. Sorry, can't correlate this to which version in use, but I usually get latest beta ASAP. Not all HQs, not all times... Spooky.

If it makes sense, I could send my EndofTurn file and at the outcome of the AI process and if I see the spooky relocation send the files. (Would need help on how to send the files.) Or, is it as simple as attaching files to an email?

Point is I see the relocations in an AI game. Maybe this is happening because I recently read this thread. Hmmm, some kind of quantumphysicaluncertainty.

< Message edited by rrbill -- 3/7/2013 2:43:55 PM >

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 101
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/7/2013 3:11:57 PM   
821Bobo


Posts: 415
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: online
Thats actually great and I hope Matrix will be finally able to fix this.

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 102
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/7/2013 4:14:16 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
rrbill, that's great. Please email the files to 2by3@2by3games.com. Ideally what we need is a save at the end of your turn, the auto save at the start of the next German turn, and the autosave at the start of the turn where you noticed the HQ's had moved back. If you could go back to the end of your turn and load it again, end the turn, and then see if the bug repeats and let us know, that would really help (be sure to turn saves off so you don't overwrite the original saves (or back them up so you can put them back if needed).

You are the first person that I know of to report this outside of these two server games, and if it duplicates it would go a long way to helping us identify the problem.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 103
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/7/2013 6:02:24 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
Are you saying you have saves going back in time where you could find this HQ movement, or that you don't but will keep an eye out for it in the future? Also, you say you're using latest public beta, so when did these things happen to you? The last public beta has been out since January 30, so if it happened to you in February it's a good bet it was with the latest 1.06.27 version.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 104
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 12:48:15 AM   
rrbill

 

Posts: 588
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline
1. I'm using 1.06.27 latest and greatest, but observation of spooky HQ locations may have been with just prior version. In any case, am always using latest version available +/- a few days.
2. Don't keep saves beyond one turn and then only my last and after AI process. So, can't send you the saves as observed.
3. Am playing the SU vs. AI gc44 now and will send what I have WHEN I SEE IT AGAIN.
4. Very sure its happened a few times; noted that some units had gone RED when an HQ was clicked and wondered why; had to be unexpected relocation.
5. Understand how to email the files. Thank you.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 105
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 1:11:25 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2384
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Sounds like what happened to me at first. Then it just got worse. I am putting some time in to trying to replicate it now with a hotseat game I have going me v me.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 106
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 3:31:02 AM   
rrbill

 

Posts: 588
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline
Ooops... ran three turns after very careful assignment of units to HQs and nothing untoward was observed. Discovered how difficult it is to get the set up perfect. Suspect I misunderstood the observation of a fault. Most likely it didn't happen. Sorry.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 107
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 3:56:06 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2384
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Looks like its just you and I again Bobo

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to rrbill)
Post #: 108
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 8:06:04 AM   
821Bobo


Posts: 415
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: online
Too bad, it seems I have to live it or quit.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 109
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 5:41:03 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
Two bad it didn't happen in the AI game. Matrix techies are discussing whether there is a way they can set up a special mechanism for one server game where all the saves are stored in a way I can access them. If Matrix can do this, are Bobo and Pelton willing to continue your game?

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 110
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 5:53:00 PM   
821Bobo


Posts: 415
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: online
I believe we both want to continue in this game.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 111
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 9:59:02 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2384
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
It would be great if we can get this fixed. I am certainly willing to resume my game with Pelton if this gets sorted.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 112
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 11:16:07 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5938
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
I think Bobo vs Pelton game is "save able' as nothing appears to be screwed up yet.

Mt vs Pelton is really screwed up as both SHC and GHC is having issues. GHC HQ's are moving around now also, missing SHC stuff and allot of AP's lost for MT. Thats what we know of so far.

Might be a good idea to wait until after next patch with Bobo vs Pelton and hope the ship is righted.

Thats my 2 cents.



_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 113
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/8/2013 11:28:52 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
There's no reason to believe the patch is going to fix any of these problems, unfortunately. If Matrix figures out how to save off the files, I'll let Bobo and Pelton to continue with the game and we can see if we can get the problems to duplicate and then repeat from saves.

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 3/8/2013 11:30:24 PM >


_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 114
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/9/2013 12:30:02 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 2384
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Pelton I am quite happy to play on even without all the AP I have lost. My HQ's getting moved around is only a temporary problem if the bug gets squashed, no big deal. The game is over 200 turns long, a half dozen turns of disruption, mainly on my side is not going to deter me from playing on. If you don't want to play on then thats your call, I will accept your resignation. But I am up for it, assuming the bug gets squashed.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 115
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/13/2013 4:11:37 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 21423
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline
Ok, we're set up now for 821Bobo and Pelton to resume your game. Thanks to the Matrix/Slitherine techies, we have your game rigged so it will store every save you guys make. Please let me know ASAP as soon as you see a problem. You'll need to stop the game and let me know (ideally PM and email me). Let me know what went wrong exactly, giving me unit names. If you notice the problem after downloading and before making any moves, then just exit the game. If you made some moves first, please save the game before exiting. Hopefully we can catch something and use the saves to figure out when it happened.

I will be laving town Friday afternoon March 15 and returning to the office on March 20 (my son's spring break so we're going to visit my daughters in Southern California). I probably won't be on the internet during that time.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 116
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/13/2013 4:29:29 PM   
821Bobo


Posts: 415
Joined: 2/8/2011
From: Slovakia
Status: online
Thanks Joel. I hope you will be able the catch it and fix it.

PS Enjoy the holidays.

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 117
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/13/2013 10:02:35 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2384
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
This is good news. Hopefully this time the bug can get trapped. Then it will on to Berlin herr Pelton.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to 821Bobo)
Post #: 118
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/14/2013 10:45:53 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5938
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Pelton I am quite happy to play on even without all the AP I have lost. My HQ's getting moved around is only a temporary problem if the bug gets squashed, no big deal. The game is over 200 turns long, a half dozen turns of disruption, mainly on my side is not going to deter me from playing on. If you don't want to play on then thats your call, I will accept your resignation. But I am up for it, assuming the bug gets squashed.


I know you only care about yourself, but the issue is effecting GHC also. GHC unlike SHC can't get by with missing Army HQ's, planes and 1/2 of all units out of supply/ HQ range.

GHC is not the Horde from Mordor.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 119
RE: HQ/SU Bug - 3/14/2013 1:09:52 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 2384
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
Where is the evidence that it is affecting you Pelton?

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 120
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> Tech Support >> RE: HQ/SU Bug Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4] 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.112