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RE: Night Bombing of Airfields

 
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RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 2/4/2013 5:06:52 PM   
AW1Steve


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PM's have been sent. My search was inconclusive so far. I'll report back what I'm told and I find.

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(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 31
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 2/4/2013 7:43:24 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 18493
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy
I know Nikademus and Joe Wilkerson for example who have spoken about having house rules on night bombing. I don't have to tell you they didn't say: "night bombing is screwed up and here's the house rule to fix it" ? And still they had a house rule. Both Nik and Joe have been part of the dev team and they are probably not the only ones using a hr. Noone forces you to use a hr nor is there anyone forcing you out of your oppinion of pin point attacks at night but if you just want to go with your above statement, there was more than one dev using a hr, so...

one of the official patches had a change in regards to night bombing which made it far better (means less effective) but ppl are still using hr, to each his own I'd say

suggest either the search function or pm the guys


Hi Castor Troy,

This jibes with my recollection from reading Nik's contributions on the matter. Don't recall hearing about JWilkerson's POV on this.

_____________________________


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Post #: 32
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 2/4/2013 9:24:17 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4616
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From: Vienna, Austria
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Just my 2c´s:

Night bombings are still a bit overpowered, but it is now highly dependent on the situation.

The most effective positive modifiers for night bombings still are:
- DL of the base under attack
- Weather
- Altitude

I still think the effect of night bombings is a bit too high with maxed out DL, below it is absolutely reasonable for mid-late war.
The problem is, it is much too easy for a player to max out DL. In addition to accuracy, the op loss figures for night attacks are not high enough, more
so for low exp crews.



For this, in our PBEM, we use the following houserules:

quote:


*) Night bombings must have squadrons set to 50% rest
*) Night bombings may not be performed below 10000ft
(the baloons mentioned are only effective at or below 6k, and only at bases with a combined port&airfield of at least 6, so their existence is no point against an alt restriction,
as the bands from 7-9k are still overpowering night bombing)

Targets may only be chosen depending on moon:

*) Below 20%: no missions possible
*) From 20-50%: only coastal cities may be attacked (no specified industry)
*) Above 50%: non coastal attacks are possible (no specified industry)
*) Above 70%: everything goes, including specified industry, ports, airfields,...



Up to now we have not identified any issues using these HRs, additional advantage is, it restricts tactical targets to 30% of the month.


My personal wish for the next PBEM would be to additionally flavor those HRs depending on the year.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 2/4/2013 9:25:33 PM >


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Post #: 33
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 2/5/2013 12:30:46 PM   
jolly_pillager

 

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LoBaron

Those sound reasonable, but we are trying to avoid complex house rules and have agreed to proceed without a night bombing rule at this time, and will revisit the issue if it becomes obvious that there is a problem.

To that end I am tracking bombing data. So far my impression is that bombers attacking at low altitude against well reconned bases are capable of inflicting very heavy losses without much cost even if those bases are not overstacked. It may be that insufficient AA is a factor, and steps are being taken to rectify the issue, though security and anti-submarine measures are going to delay delivery considerably...

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 34
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 9:31:02 AM   
Yaab


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From: Poznan, Poland
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Right now any bomber group can perform night bombing missions provided it has 6 ready planes and 50 morale. Why not add an experience threshold to the code so we would have i.e. 6 planes, 50 morale, 65 experience?

(in reply to jolly_pillager)
Post #: 35
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 2:03:14 PM   
Gaspote


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From: France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Just my 2c´s:

Night bombings are still a bit overpowered, but it is now highly dependent on the situation.

The most effective positive modifiers for night bombings still are:
- DL of the base under attack
- Weather
- Altitude

I still think the effect of night bombings is a bit too high with maxed out DL, below it is absolutely reasonable for mid-late war.
The problem is, it is much too easy for a player to max out DL. In addition to accuracy, the op loss figures for night attacks are not high enough, more
so for low exp crews.


In my PBEM, I started night bombing with 40 bombers at 15000 feet and didn't got crazy result even with high moonlight, high DL and good weather on hex with more than 100 planes. Something like 1 planes destroyed max and usually 2-3 hits on airfield.
My opponent replicated with 8 B17 at 8000 feet at night and without DL, in thunderstorm but moonlight, he destroyed 2 planes on ground and damage a lot others and got 2-5 airfield hit.

Although AA was present in my hex, with searchlight and figher set on night CAP (I saw it's useless) when nothing in his case except bofors (but not shooting over 10000 feet).

I then start using my bombers at 8000 feet too and without getting loss from flak I got approximatly the same result using 24 G3M.

In my opinion, only altitude matter but it's wrong because flying so low, bomber got no chance against flak even at night because of searchlight, even if the flak don't hit the blast at this alt reduce accuracy.


< Message edited by Gaspote -- 3/16/2014 3:05:41 PM >

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 36
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 4:47:01 PM   
JocMeister

 

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An easy Night bombing HR that works reasonably well is to only allow it against strategic targets.

(in reply to Gaspote)
Post #: 37
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 6:00:03 PM   
Gaspote


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

An easy Night bombing HR that works reasonably well is to only allow it against strategic targets.



Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 38
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 6:23:37 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.


On the contrary that HR is actually a boon to the Japanese player. Japanese night bombings is never going to be more then a nuisance in the game. Neither over land nor water. 500 B24s on night bombing on the other hand...

(in reply to Gaspote)
Post #: 39
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 6:36:47 PM   
Gaspote


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From: France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.


On the contrary that HR is actually a boon to the Japanese player. Japanese night bombings is never going to be more then a nuisance in the game. Neither over land nor water. 500 B24s on night bombing on the other hand...


IRL, a raid of 500 4E at night would result in heavy loss from collision.
I don't really understand why 4E perform so well at night because it wasn't the case historically. I didn't fix a HR in my PBEM, I don't know if my opponent will do this though, because he seems to not use night bombing that much and me too.


< Message edited by Gaspote -- 3/16/2014 7:37:26 PM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 40
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 7:37:44 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

IRL, a raid of 500 4E at night would result in heavy loss from collision.
I don't really understand why 4E perform so well at night because it wasn't the case historically. I didn't fix a HR in my PBEM, I don't know if my opponent will do this though, because he seems to not use night bombing that much and me too.



Well, this is a game so things work a bit differently from the real war. Hopefully you and your opponent can work out any potential problems along the way if they show up.


(in reply to Gaspote)
Post #: 41
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 7:52:33 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 1986
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Our hr on night bombing is just don't do it  Seemed to work well even into '45.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 42
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 10:25:00 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
Status: offline
OK, here's my two cents (I know who asked you). I've been reading many posts and I see this topic come up all over the place. I'm in the tech industry, mostly hardware but I have a rudimentary knowledge of software. Also I work closely with programmers, and anyone who is in this field knows the old arguement. Its SW, no its HD. Also you can code things one way and get unexpected results elsewhere. OK, that being said, I think it just may be a matter of the code being set to allow the USAAF's to torch Japan's cities nightly late war ('44 and onward) and it creeps into the tactical end also. I may be wrong I can't tell if tactical night bombing is that bad yet. I see lots on both sides of the coin. I have seen where dev's have chimed in and said it could be better (sorry I don't recall where). I've started to print out dev's responses on such items since then.

So, all that being said I like Puhis' response in post 3 and Poltryboy's response in post 9. Hopefully when I get to PBEM I'll be able to find a like minded player and we can meld the two. BTW I plan on playing both sides eventually, so what goes for one goes for the other. So that's my stance, unless something else changes that is.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 43
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 10:37:42 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.


On the contrary that HR is actually a boon to the Japanese player. Japanese night bombings is never going to be more then a nuisance in the game. Neither over land nor water. 500 B24s on night bombing on the other hand...


IRL, a raid of 500 4E at night would result in heavy loss from collision.
I don't really understand why 4E perform so well at night because it wasn't the case historically. I didn't fix a HR in my PBEM, I don't know if my opponent will do this though, because he seems to not use night bombing that much and me too.



I have to disagree here, by early '45 at least the USAAF was sending 500-600 plane raids every other night form the Marianas to Japan and I don't think collisions were a 'game' changer. Before that time frame I don't think I'd ever try and use such a large raid.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Gaspote)
Post #: 44
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 10:47:30 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 594
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
OK, posts are coming hot and heavy here. I like LoBaron's post 33 also. So some sort of combo if/when I get there.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 45
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/16/2014 11:21:25 PM   
obvert


Posts: 7516
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.


On the contrary that HR is actually a boon to the Japanese player. Japanese night bombings is never going to be more then a nuisance in the game. Neither over land nor water. 500 B24s on night bombing on the other hand...


IRL, a raid of 500 4E at night would result in heavy loss from collision.
I don't really understand why 4E perform so well at night because it wasn't the case historically. I didn't fix a HR in my PBEM, I don't know if my opponent will do this though, because he seems to not use night bombing that much and me too.



After playing with it in several PBEM games I can attest to the affects. Japanese bombers can hit more than they should and so can the Allies, but the Allies have much better stuff which magnifies the problem, especially when it's a port or airfield strike. Against 'city' targets, manpower strikes, it works best, and against individual industries individual targets will be destroyed in a night even before the B-29.

This kind of stuff use wan't possible in the war, even by the most trained crews in the RAF who specialized in night bombing.



_____________________________


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Post #: 46
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 12:54:33 AM   
Gaspote


Posts: 303
Joined: 6/30/2013
From: France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.


On the contrary that HR is actually a boon to the Japanese player. Japanese night bombings is never going to be more then a nuisance in the game. Neither over land nor water. 500 B24s on night bombing on the other hand...


IRL, a raid of 500 4E at night would result in heavy loss from collision.
I don't really understand why 4E perform so well at night because it wasn't the case historically. I didn't fix a HR in my PBEM, I don't know if my opponent will do this though, because he seems to not use night bombing that much and me too.



I have to disagree here, by early '45 at least the USAAF was sending 500-600 plane raids every other night form the Marianas to Japan and I don't think collisions were a 'game' changer. Before that time frame I don't think I'd ever try and use such a large raid.



Do you really think B29B is like B24 ?

B29B was the only one with an improved radar making night mission possible, the fact most japanese fighter have been shot down help too.
B29B was design to fly at night at 8000 feet and it was the only one. Although the fact they start to use night bombing in 45 show it wasn't possible before.

In real life, I don't think a single 4E before B29 could have find his target and especially aim it with their speed and their bomb sight absolutely not design for night bombing.

Compare to this, japanese were know for their optical at night. The fact 20-40 bombers flew night bombing on Guadalcanal without much trouble prove this point. Flying at real life altitude (20 000 feet) you will get the same result.
The night raid of the Marianas show they improve their skill with time too.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 47
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 1:49:18 AM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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I'm not comparing the b29 to the b24 here, and I'm not talking about hitting small targets like I think you may be referring to here. All I'm pointing out is that while collisions did happen they were not getting heavy losses from collisions. Heck they happened over Europe in daylight.

quote:

B29B was design to fly at night at 8000 feet and it was the only one. Although the fact they start to use night bombing in 45 show it wasn't possible before



BTW the B-29 was not designed to bomb at 8k feet. It was designed to bomb at extreme altitudes. This didn't work well though because of the jet-stream of which we knew little. So LeMay brought the bombers down and operated them at night to get the desired results. The B-29 program was the most costly system the US developed during the war (yes more than the A-bomb) and the 'bomber mafia' in the USAAF could ill afford not to have their baby work. The fact that it didn't start heavily until '45 was due to available airfields and the number of planes.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 3/17/2014 10:43:53 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Gaspote)
Post #: 48
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 11:09:57 AM   
obvert


Posts: 7516
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Pretty unfair for the jap when you know most of japanese bomber operate at night. Sending them on daylight make them easy target too.


On the contrary that HR is actually a boon to the Japanese player. Japanese night bombings is never going to be more then a nuisance in the game. Neither over land nor water. 500 B24s on night bombing on the other hand...


IRL, a raid of 500 4E at night would result in heavy loss from collision.
I don't really understand why 4E perform so well at night because it wasn't the case historically. I didn't fix a HR in my PBEM, I don't know if my opponent will do this though, because he seems to not use night bombing that much and me too.



I have to disagree here, by early '45 at least the USAAF was sending 500-600 plane raids every other night form the Marianas to Japan and I don't think collisions were a 'game' changer. Before that time frame I don't think I'd ever try and use such a large raid.



Do you really think B29B is like B24 ?

B29B was the only one with an improved radar making night mission possible, the fact most japanese fighter have been shot down help too.
B29B was design to fly at night at 8000 feet and it was the only one. Although the fact they start to use night bombing in 45 show it wasn't possible before.

In real life, I don't think a single 4E before B29 could have find his target and especially aim it with their speed and their bomb sight absolutely not design for night bombing.

Compare to this, japanese were know for their optical at night. The fact 20-40 bombers flew night bombing on Guadalcanal without much trouble prove this point. Flying at real life altitude (20 000 feet) you will get the same result.
The night raid of the Marianas show they improve their skill with time too.


Night bombing in game becomes an issue when huge forces are involved in port or airfield strikes. Nemo made tests years ago showing he could wipe out 100s of 4E on a big Allied base by going in low at 1k with 200+ Japanese 2E bombers. They also took very heavy losses, but hitting the 4Es was worth it. (The Marianas raids you mention also had a high loss rate for the Japanese. The raids happened over three months, involving around 80 Japanese bombers total, destroying 11 B-29 and damaging another 40 or so, for the loss of ~37 Japanese planes. Unfortunately flak in game at night doesn't work this well, although NF, which downed there of the bombers, do).

In reality large scale night raids of 200+ bombers against airfields and ports were not done, and that makes me question whether it was possible to have a 200-400 planes strike at night against an airfield or a port and achieve any kind of accuracy. As noted before, in the European theatre the British moved away from any but rare specialized strikes against pinpoint targets, and went to area bombing. They could get 400-500 planes onto target, but the targets were huge, the bombs were incendiary and the radar and other targeting systems in place were extensive.

Here is an interesting article on combating Japanese night bombing from the USAAF perspective, but it also has a lot of interesting information on the USAAF night bombing tactics. In the Pacific most raids at night were small, 25 planes or less, for both sides. This included some new info for me, such as US night fighter groups being used to strafe and disrupt IJA arty and bombing shipping, as well as working i tandem with PT Boats to locate Japanese positions at night based on defensive gun flare. If anyone has more like this, please link.

http://www.usaaf.net/ww2/night/nightpg9.htm

At this scale in game night-bombing works alright, as do night bombing defenses, but when it's scaled way up that it becomes a problem.

In the endgame the B-29 should be able to cause extensive damage at night against strategic targets, and it does. The system works best when it again mirrors real war situations, i.e. when B-29s are hitting manpower at 8-10k and causing huge fires that destroy infrastructure.

_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Gaspote)
Post #: 49
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 5:08:32 PM   
Symon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Apparently I did miss it. Please show me Castor. I which threads did delelopers say "night bombing is screwed up and here's the house rule to fix it". I must have missed that for sure. Where and when please?

Do the developers have personal HRs? Of course they do. It's not that an algorithm is screwed up, but rather the algorithm's flexibility requires a bit of thought to get it right. The algorithms are all very flexible, and can be gamed unmercifully. The game was meant to be played in the sweet spot, where it works extremely well.

Does Elf have HRs? Of course he does. He developed the algorithm and understands that it is all encompasing and needs a bit of intelligence to work right. I have HRs too and understand the algorithm is sweeping and needs a bit of intelligence to work right. Every developer of every aspect of the game understands that the algorithms are very wide, 3 sigma, spaces and need a bit of intelligence to work properly.

Liddle kiddle wargamers have no clue, and no desire, to understand how these things are devised to work. They push to the 3 sigma wall and whine when they get spanked in their gaming experience.

Wish you all would get it. But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. Ciao. JWE

_____________________________

Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 50
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 5:18:14 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12999
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-DC-GM-WA-NE-IL ?
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Apparently I did miss it. Please show me Castor. I which threads did delelopers say "night bombing is screwed up and here's the house rule to fix it". I must have missed that for sure. Where and when please?

Do the developers have personal HRs? Of course they do. It's not that an algorithm is screwed up, but rather the algorithm's flexibility requires a bit of thought to get it right. The algorithms are all very flexible, and can be gamed unmercifully. The game was meant to be played in the sweet spot, where it works extremely well.

Does Elf have HRs? Of course he does. He developed the algorithm and understands that it is all encompasing and needs a bit of intelligence to work right. I have HRs too and understand the algorithm is sweeping and needs a bit of intelligence to work right. Every developer of every aspect of the game understands that the algorithms are very wide, 3 sigma, spaces and need a bit of intelligence to work properly.

Liddle kiddle wargamers have no clue, and no desire, to understand how these things are devised to work. They push to the 3 sigma wall and whine when they get spanked in their gaming experience.

Wish you all would get it. But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. Ciao. JWE



OK , once again we bow to you , all hail the developers! You are all knowing and superior to us lesser mortals! Now how about sharing a little of that knowledge? If maybe not having one of you lot come down the mountain with the 11 Commandments, then how about the occasional snippit? The only reason we prattle on forever on these hundreds of thread speculating on what we don't know is that we don't KNOW IT! Share the wealth Dude! Or do we have to belong to some obscure order, go through initiations and get the secret handshake?

Do we need to sacrifice a main frame , or send a bribe? Give us the address , we'll send a check!

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 3/17/2014 6:19:56 PM >


_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

"Quit whining and play the game. Or go home". My 7th grade baseball coach. It applies well to WITP AE players.

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 51
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 5:30:57 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12284
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Symon


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Apparently I did miss it. Please show me Castor. I which threads did delelopers say "night bombing is screwed up and here's the house rule to fix it". I must have missed that for sure. Where and when please?

Do the developers have personal HRs? Of course they do. It's not that an algorithm is screwed up, but rather the algorithm's flexibility requires a bit of thought to get it right. The algorithms are all very flexible, and can be gamed unmercifully. The game was meant to be played in the sweet spot, where it works extremely well.

Does Elf have HRs? Of course he does. He developed the algorithm and understands that it is all encompasing and needs a bit of intelligence to work right. I have HRs too and understand the algorithm is sweeping and needs a bit of intelligence to work right. Every developer of every aspect of the game understands that the algorithms are very wide, 3 sigma, spaces and need a bit of intelligence to work properly.

Liddle kiddle wargamers have no clue, and no desire, to understand how these things are devised to work. They push to the 3 sigma wall and whine when they get spanked in their gaming experience.

Wish you all would get it. But if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. Ciao. JWE



OK , once again we bow to you , all hail the developers! You are all knowing and superior to us lesser mortals! Now how about sharing a little of that knowledge? If maybe not having one of you lot come down the mountain with the 11 Commandments, then how about the occasional snippit? The only reason we prattle on forever on these hundreds of thread speculating on what we don't know is that we don't KNOW IT! Share the wealth Dude! Or do we have to belong to some obscure order, go through initiations and get the secret handshake?

Do we need to sacrifice a main frame , or send a bribe? Give us the address , we'll send a check!



you notice in the year old post of mine you quote that I didn't say what you quote... I specially said they of course DIDN'T say it is screwed (you will never hear this) but the guys still used a house rule on night
bombing. There were enough discussions about night bombing (tactical night bombing) in the past and you have been involved too. I repeatadly said tactical night bombing is too effective when numbers are involved,
you repeatadly said it isn't. I said why on Earth would the responsible commanders be so dumb then not to use it like in the game and why was even strategic night bombing so inaccurate that only really high numbers
achieved what they wanted to achieve as they more or less just had to hit the city to destroy the target as there were so many bombers. Attacking a lvl 3 airfield at night and hoping to hit it is just off the limits
and it always was. IIRC correctly the discussion involved in some direction that you said the commanders just didn't want to do it better (which I highly questioned) and at the point when it was like "it could
be done some time in mid 45" I said that this is enough that I just don't care then as I find it ridicoulos to achieve something in early 42 that could have been achieved (and still wasn't done) in mid 45.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/17/2014 6:32:36 PM >


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(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 52
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 5:52:11 PM   
MBF

 

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Y'all realize this is a thread necro right ? :-)

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 53
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 6:04:44 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 1003
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
Status: offline
It is the latest thread concerning night bombing (night air war was tackled in some other thread from August 2013, if my memory serves me right). I resurrected this thread because I thought a simple experience check, added to 6 planes/50 morale check, would reduce night bombing's intensity for both sides.

The new check could be:
6 planes/50 morale/60 or 65 experience

What would be the downsides of this additional check?

< Message edited by Yaab -- 3/17/2014 7:06:49 PM >

(in reply to MBF)
Post #: 54
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 6:33:48 PM   
MBF

 

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Joined: 3/25/2008
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Wasn't aimed at you Yaab ;-) More at some of the less tempered repeating their mantras ... (on BOTH sides)

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 55
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 8:49:11 PM   
obvert


Posts: 7516
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

It is the latest thread concerning night bombing (night air war was tackled in some other thread from August 2013, if my memory serves me right). I resurrected this thread because I thought a simple experience check, added to 6 planes/50 morale check, would reduce night bombing's intensity for both sides.

The new check could be:
6 planes/50 morale/60 or 65 experience

What would be the downsides of this additional check?


Firstly, it's hard to tell what your numbers even mean.

Secondly, HRs are easiest to play when they're not complicated. Probably best to have only a very few, and make those something that doesn't take a lot of consideration to work out every turn. Even the moonlight HRs are tough to keep track of every turn.

< Message edited by obvert -- 3/17/2014 9:49:39 PM >


_____________________________


"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 56
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 8:52:20 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1581
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Do we need to sacrifice a main frame , or send a bribe? Give us the address , we'll send a check!

Couple nubile Swedish girls would work But it's a lot simpler than that. The game has no rules. There ain't no rules. The game can go into never-never land and Wendy can lift her skirt to anything that comes along. That's how the flexibility of the game system works.

Some people play it like how Elf, and Tom and Don, and K and J wanted, and that's cool. Others just want to push the limits to get their computer win, and that's cool too. Who's right? Who cares?

Do you want a list of developer approved house rules? And who'se to say that they are worth a crap except to the individuals concerned. You obviously play your way, and you are not likely to listen to anybody else, yeah? And neither is anyone gonna listen to anyone else. So what ya gonna do? You really think some wargame weenie with a hard on is gonna listen to what a developer says? Dude ... !!

We are assassable, just not here. If you really, really, want to know the real HRs shoot a pm. Ciao. J

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Yippy Ki Yay

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 57
RE: Night Bombing of Airfields - 3/17/2014 9:16:43 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 1003
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

It is the latest thread concerning night bombing (night air war was tackled in some other thread from August 2013, if my memory serves me right). I resurrected this thread because I thought a simple experience check, added to 6 planes/50 morale check, would reduce night bombing's intensity for both sides.

The new check could be:
6 planes/50 morale/60 or 65 experience

What would be the downsides of this additional check?


Firstly, it's hard to tell what your numbers even mean.

Secondly, HRs are easiest to play when they're not complicated. Probably best to have only a very few, and make those something that doesn't take a lot of consideration to work out every turn. Even the moonlight HRs are tough to keep track of every turn.


Manual p. 159

"In order to launch an Offensive Mission at Night, an air unit must have at least 6 ready aircraft and morale of at least 50."

So I was of thinking of adding an experience requirement, so the check could be:

6 ready aircraft/ 50 morale/ average pilot exp 60-65

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 58
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