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Question on P47's

 
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Question on P47's - 1/18/2013 8:42:33 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 657
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Mine are getting eaten alive byAM6m5's & 8's. This is in late 43, my fighters are running at 22k altitude, exp high 70's mid 80's, sweeping against a CAP 6 hexes away running at 13-16k. Not just 1 time either, several sweeps in DEI & Maylay have returned 7-9 lost frames for no enemy airframes downed. Do I need to quit using Razorbacks & wait on the D's, or is there something else I can do? I was sorta shocked at how fast my losses piled up.

<edit>
This is playing the RA mod, btw.

< Message edited by Lecivius -- 1/18/2013 8:44:12 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Question on P47's - 1/18/2013 9:03:47 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8183
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		It is late '43 and you don't have the P47D2 model yet? I don't think that I like the RA scenario in that case...

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fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 2
RE: Question on P47's - 1/18/2013 9:08:25 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1326
Joined: 10/22/2008
Status: offline 		Can you post a combat report, perhaps we can help you then..

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(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 3
RE: Question on P47's - 1/18/2013 9:27:58 PM   
aphrochine


Posts: 187
Joined: 3/24/2008
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Is the cap layered?? Are you severely outnumbered??

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Post #: 4
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 12:44:22 AM   
Lecivius


Posts: 657
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		I guess they are D's, the pic looks like Razor's. But I'm having art issues. Hmm, that makes me even more nervous.

Anyways...

Morning Air attack on Bangkok , at 56,62

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 11 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 14
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 16
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 12

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 9 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 18000 feet

CAP engaged:
11th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 22000.
Raid is overhead
21st Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 18000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
24th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters to 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
50th Sentai with A6M3 Zero (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
14 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters between 17000 and 23000.
Raid is overhead



The Bolts have an avg Hig 60's Exp Air high 70's, and have MAJBerg M. Leadership 66 Ins. 73 Naval 43 Land 18 Air 25 Admin 55 Aggression 62

Gen Exp 72, Morale 98, Fatigue 9, Kills 309

I can post more, but this is pretty generic of what I see when I sweep with P47's. The 38's do a lot better, in all models.

(in reply to aphrochine)
Post #: 5
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 12:46:33 AM   
JuanG


Posts: 730
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline
quote:


The Bolts have an avg Hig 60's Exp Air high 70's, and have MAJBerg M. Leadership 66 Ins. 73 Naval 43 Land 18 Air 25 Admin 55 Aggression 62


That might be the problem.

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AltWNT Mk2 Concept Thread

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 6
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 12:51:53 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 6065
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Agree with JuanG, the Air Skill in leader is the biggest factor in A2A combat. I sort by Leadership and then look for high Air skill.

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Post #: 7
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 1:03:35 AM   
Lecivius


Posts: 657
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Cool, I'll look into it right after dinner. Thanks!

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 8
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 3:20:19 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 4431
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online 		Yeah air skill is pretty important ... gotta check your leader before committing them to battle ...

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Pax

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 9
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 3:39:25 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 6065
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		It hurts to spend some of the Allies precious PPs early in the war on leaders, but my permanent air units get them when they come in as reinforcements (especially fighter and 4e bomber groups). Those that get withdrawn in '42 fight with who they have in most cases.

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Post #: 10
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 4:08:33 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 6203
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		And, sweep higher. The P47 is a high altitude fighter. Why not make him fight up high? Try this, put 2 units of p47s on long range CAP over the target at 29,000 feet. Then sweep with a third at 29,000 feet. See if you don't shoot down a ton of zeros, and let us know.

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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 11
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 4:20:25 AM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3114
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline 		Just a Rider to what the other Guys have already stated; this is a small table that I use, and was done by Alfred - quote:

Training Mission as Principle Role
This includes all air groups. Assign leader using these priorities:
• Inspiration –Influences air group morale recovery.
• Leadership – Influences the air group’s experience gain.
• Of small import, Air Skill influences results in air-to-air combat.
• No other skills or qualities have any influence.

I would never consider using a fighter or fighter-bomber group commander with air-skill as low as 25, it would mean just too many bad dice roles.

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 12
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 8:05:22 AM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 990
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline 		new-arrival US airgroups are notorious in my game, they love to assign a chump leader & then i gotta spend some points.

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 13
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 11:03:18 AM   
Banzan

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/13/2010
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline 		Many airgroups have commanders who are also pilots. If they get shot down (KIA, MIA or wounded), some other pilot of the group gets the leadership. Very strange leaders (skills in 20s) you get sometimes that way without noticing.

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 14
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 7:18:29 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 6203
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

new-arrival US airgroups are notorious in my game, they love to assign a chump leader & then i gotta spend some points.


Well DDs too until 1944. They tend to get a lot of leaders suited to command merchant ships

_____________________________

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." Godwin's Law

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 15
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 7:54:45 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3114
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

new-arrival US airgroups are notorious in my game, they love to assign a chump leader & then i gotta spend some points.


This one I have always wondered about in game, as it is my understanding that historically from 1943 USAAF air-group commanders were rotated veteran pilots. I thought that the system was for veteran pilots that showed the potential, received some command training. They were then assigned to command an air-group when it was forming, and in it's final advanced training.

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 16
RE: Question on P47's - 1/19/2013 11:20:55 PM   
JeffK


Posts: 4675
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline 		You are right Divepac, but those pilots have to be removed from combat which many are loath to do.

This would be a good arguement for a Reserve/TRACOM pool where incoming air groups get either a historical commander or draw the most experienced out of the pools.

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(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 17
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 1:09:51 AM   
Lecivius


Posts: 657
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Ah, better. I always went with Aggression 1st. Same group, new commander. My mistake. Thanks again!



Morning Air attack on Bangkok , at 56,62

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 23 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 7
Ki-27b Nate x 8
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 9
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 5
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 3

Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 3 destroyed
Ki-27b Nate: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x P-47D2 Thunderbolt sweeping at 21000 feet

CAP engaged:
21st Sentai with Ki-45 KAIc Nick (1 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters to 26000.
Raid is overhead
24th Sentai with Ki-43-IIb Oscar (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters to 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes
25th Sentai with Ki-43-IIa Oscar (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters to 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
50th Sentai with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 19000 and 21000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes
64th Sentai with Ki-43-IIa Oscar (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters to 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
77th Sentai with Ki-27b Nate (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters between 14000 and 25000.
Raid is overhead

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 18
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 7:04:22 AM   
Puhis


Posts: 1627
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 7
Ki-27b Nate x 8
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 9
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 5
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 3



Eh, what the h...? Nates flying with 1943 fighters???

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 19
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 7:19:12 AM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3114
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 7
Ki-27b Nate x 8
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 9
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 5
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 3



Eh, what the h...? Nates flying with 1943 fighters???


When I used the play as the Japs, I would use them as fighter-bombers, as they make excellent ground attack airframes (cheap).

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 20
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 8:37:10 AM   
Puhis


Posts: 1627
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I don't call a plane with 2 x 50 kg bombs "excellent ground attack airframe"... I call it crap. Nate is just a trainer, nothing more.

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 21
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 3:16:35 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

Posts: 14067
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I don't call a plane with 2 x 50 kg bombs "excellent ground attack airframe"... I call it crap. Nate is just a trainer, nothing more.



Well, if it's 50 kg of U235

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 22
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 8:04:25 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3114
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I don't call a plane with 2 x 50 kg bombs "excellent ground attack airframe"... I call it crap. Nate is just a trainer, nothing more.



Well, if it's 50 kg of U235


This is the problem with my true genius, my thinking is just so far ahead of everyone else. Never to mind the rest of you guys, will probably catchup with my thinking in about 3 years.

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 23
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 8:09:44 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14913
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I don't call a plane with 2 x 50 kg bombs "excellent ground attack airframe"... I call it crap. Nate is just a trainer, nothing more.



Well, if it's 50 kg of U235


This is the problem with my true genius, my thinking is just so far ahead of everyone else. Never to mind the rest of you guys, will probably catchup with my thinking in about 3 years.


Is that how long it will take for you to do the next turn in our game?

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Post #: 24
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 8:15:31 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3114
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

I don't call a plane with 2 x 50 kg bombs "excellent ground attack airframe"... I call it crap. Nate is just a trainer, nothing more.



Well, if it's 50 kg of U235


This is the problem with my true genius, my thinking is just so far ahead of everyone else. Never to mind the rest of you guys, will probably catchup with my thinking in about 3 years.


Is that how long it will take for you to do the next turn in our game?


Don't get your feathers all ruffled-up there Poultry boy, about 2 hours maybe.

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 25
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 8:16:20 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14913
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: offline 		No worries. I was just wondering if someone of your genius took longer than mere mortals.

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Post #: 26
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 8:47:18 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3114
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

No worries. I was just wondering if someone of your genius took longer than mere mortals.


[While patting the said chicken on the head] - Now there's a good little chicken.

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 27
RE: Question on P47's - 1/20/2013 10:00:55 PM   
bigred


Posts: 2611
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

And, sweep higher. The P47 is a high altitude fighter. Why not make him fight up high? Try this, put 2 units of p47s on long range CAP over the target at 29,000 feet. Then sweep with a third at 29,000 feet. See if you don't shoot down a ton of zeros, and let us know.

Night bomb the enemy Airfield for 2/3 turns before and set the LBA to 50%rest. mess w/ the rest factor on the enemy sqns.

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 28
RE: Question on P47's - 1/21/2013 5:58:35 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 657
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

And, sweep higher. The P47 is a high altitude fighter. Why not make him fight up high? Try this, put 2 units of p47s on long range CAP over the target at 29,000 feet. Then sweep with a third at 29,000 feet. See if you don't shoot down a ton of zeros, and let us know.


I did this, the LRCAP did not show in the combat, just the sweeping fighters. This is against the AI, so not a biggie, but I was getting my clock cleaned.

Sorta embarrasing to get gutted like this by the AI, but that explains how I managed to be the only one who lost a PBEM as the Allies Hopefully I'll have a better knowledge next time.

< Message edited by Lecivius -- 1/21/2013 6:12:50 PM >

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 29
RE: Question on P47's - 1/21/2013 6:09:31 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 1825
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		LRCAP is very fickle. Better to just sweep with many groups!

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 30
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