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How much Research is Enough Research

 
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How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 12:31:03 AM   
thiosk2


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My question is regarding the apparently altered research system since DW. I never liked the old system much.
Now, we build research bases and you can get location specific bonuses. I was pleased to find that automated constructors would put appropriate bases in appropriate places- a random gas giant offered a 30% high tech bonus, and it got a high tech base. Neat. I put several research bases in orbit of a neutron star, and several more near a black hole.

Question 1: what are practical limits to spamming research centers? Can I build them continuously; is anything stopping me from doing so?
Question 2: How many research centers do you folks use? I don't have a good feel for the new research tree; is there any ratio you tend to do to stay current? Like one of each research center per colony?

Question 3: do you spam the crap out of research bases at places like black holes, just making a hoard of them?

I have similar questions about resort bases. I'm having trouble finding scenery values for various planets-- like the ringed systems or the planets with various ruins. In my previous game, I built two bases but didn't get any passengers despite being in the same system as my home colony.

< Message edited by thiosk2 -- 1/18/2013 12:32:44 AM >
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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 12:48:08 AM   
StarLab


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Perhaps this thread will help

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2988238&mpage=1&key=?

I'm terrible at explaining such things... ;)

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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 1:39:14 AM   
Modest

 

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Ok... I am not 100% sure that everything I say is correct, but I am totally sure most of it will be. So I will try to answer Your questions.

1. You can build them as long as You want, prowiding You will have credict to pay and maintandence. Also every single one of them will have impact on Your research - BUT not in a way You may think it will. Your empire has it's research potential. Let's think about it as about scientists which are ready to do research for You. For this example let's agree that Your research potential is 100 (usually it is over 700, but it is only example). That means You have 100 scientists to allocate. First of all - it is not 100 for weapons, 100 for Tech, and 100 for Energy. It is 100 total. So the sum of research points allocated in each branch of science must be lower or equal to Your's empire research potential. So if I will build 1000 energy research stations, and each will give me 120 energy research points, that means I will have 12000 energy research points. But because my empire have only 100 research potential it means that 11900 will be unused, and I will use only 100.
Now... If I have 100 research potential, and I made energy, tech and weapons labolatories in equal numbers than my total research potential will be equally divided betwen all branches [so it will be 33 to weapons, 33 to tech and 34 (this 1 is neglectible, right?) to energy]. It is just like creating places to work for scientist. I may provide them enormus facilities but what good comes from it to me, if I do not have eoungh of them to run it? It is cheaper to build a bit to big facility for them - they are working equally fast and I pay lower maintandence :)
But how building addidional (more than needed) research labs influence researching than? Answer is simple - they are changing proportion. Example - I have total research potential 100. I build weapon lab which gives me 100 weapons research potential and two energy lab which give me 200 energy research potential (let's ignore tech in this example). In this case 100 (our total research potential) will be divided betwen weapon and energy. But energy has to times bigger potential than weapons (200>100). So 100 of total research potential will be with those proportion - 34 for weapons and 66 for energy (I know - 34*2=68, and 68 is more than 66, but this 1 point is neglectible). If You would build now one weapons lab which would provided You with additional 100 points to weapons research potential You would recived an equal proportion (200=200) and Your total research potential would be divaded 50/50. In this way You may influence which branch You want to make more important.
How is total research potential changed during a game? By colonising new planets and growing stronger economy and bigger population. I do not know for sure, but as Your empire grows, total research potential also grows (but much slower).

So to answer Your question 1 - it is very inpractical to spam research centers. Better make sure just that summ of Your weapons, energy and tech potential is not much bigger than total research potential.

I would like to point out that I skipped locations bonuses, gov. bonuses, characters bonuses and racial bonuses. Those are applied afther all mentioned by me earlier calculations are made. So in short they will allowe You to get higher amount of research points than Your total research potential would normally allowed. But one important thing - location bonuses do not stack!

2. I usually have around 5 of each kind (with each giving me 120 to it's research branch). And that is eoungh for very long time of gameplay. More important is that I try to have them more or less equal in proportions.

3. Bonus to research from locations such as black holes do not stack and don't influence research centers. It influence all research branch. And You alweys get the biggest bonus that You managet to secure. Example: I have two weapons research centers over interesting planets - first +13% to weapons, second +27%. I am also about to build another weapon research station over +38% black hole. One would suspect that I have right now +40% to weapons research (13+27=40), and afther I will build third research station I will have total 78% bonus (40+38=78). WRONG!!! Currently I have only +27% because they do not add, but just the biggest one is given. Afther I will build the fird research cender it will be +38% because this will become the biggest bonus.

But all branches are autonomus in this matter.

There is absolutly no point in building more than one research center per interesting location (apart from the fact that if during war enemy will destroy one, You will have still second).

I hope that it was helpfull :)

As for tourism I can not help.


(Oh... Great... Just wonderfull - I was sitting for around 1 hour making this long message only to find out that somebody had a smart idea of giving link to appropriate theard... I am already feeling like a donkey ;))

< Message edited by Modest -- 1/18/2013 1:43:03 AM >

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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 1:59:42 AM   
thiosk2


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Worry not-- I read your response first! I kinda get it I think.


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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 4:54:06 AM   
unclean

 

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Modest has it right.

I made an image that sums up that linked thread, since I've always found it really confusing:

edit: Should mention that research can't exceed your research capacity, so don't get too crazy with labs.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by unclean -- 3/2/2013 12:38:22 AM >

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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 7:15:53 AM   
feelotraveller


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Good explanations people. 

Just a minor correction - the ultra-genius scientist increases the research potential directly.  So his effect is already included in T and is not a factor in U. 

(He will have the same overall effect on X but needs a few extra labs to get this.)  You can confirm this by dismissing him and checking the figures once the page has updated... it takes a while usually. 

Edit: remember that goverment and races bonuses are also factors in/of U.

< Message edited by feelotraveller -- 1/18/2013 7:21:07 AM >

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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 8:47:16 AM   
Gareth_Bryne


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Excellent screenshot! But a algebraic clarification:

Yes, the genius increases T internally, so no need to multiply by it; as for the rest...

If also government impact = G (here G = 1.6)

and race impact = R (here R = 1.4)

and area research impact = U (without the genius, here U = 1.25),

the end formula is (A*T*R*G*U) /(A+B+C) = X

here (900*1167*1.6*1.4*1.25)/ (900+1200+750) = 1031.9

So, laaaadies and gentlmeeeeen, our final conclusion is: dump all the friggin' labs from the smaller spaceports to focus Research and improve Maintenance!

P.S. And build research facilities by necessity.

< Message edited by Gareth_Bryne -- 1/18/2013 10:33:00 AM >


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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 9:38:22 AM   
Bingeling

 

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Uh, how does reducing number of research labs improve research? I agree with removing maintenance.

If you want asymmetrical research outputs, it is rather impractical to have lots of spaceports with research labs, though. In a 100 colony empire with 100 spaceports (we are not AI, are we?), it would require quite a few energy labs to get twice as many energy research labs as the rest.

Me? I usually run AI designs, and enjoy symmetrical research. I have yet to be short of cash in any significant way once the early days are over. And during the early days, it is usually not a huge surplus of labs even if they are on every spaceports.

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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 10:01:16 AM   
Shuttle Door Gunner

 

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My 2 cents is that I had not considered spamming research centers and I still wouldn't because I know the AI doesn't and it would imbalance a game. Personally, I'd rather not go down that road. Imho exploits in this game takeout the challenge. And with out challenge I get bored. But I know not everyone thinks the same way as I, but be warned that you'll probably loose interest in the game if you break the rules. If the game allows multiple stations in one spot, I think that should be nerfed out in a patch "Or" the A.I. should spam as well just to keep it fair. I think the latter is a sucky idea though.

just my 2 pennys

< Message edited by Shuttle Door Gunner -- 1/18/2013 10:02:42 AM >

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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 10:31:43 AM   
Gareth_Bryne


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Oops, you're right. It focuses research, but doesn't improve it.

Spamming helps only so far. Remember that only the highest percentage bonus counts, while labs become more inefficient.

< Message edited by Gareth_Bryne -- 1/18/2013 10:34:51 AM >


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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 11:15:51 AM   
Bingeling

 

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I have never paid too much attention to research (be sure to have enough labs, and grab whatever bonuses is available). But in my last game (the AAR) I noticed my AI refusing to build labs. The AI seems to think one is enough in general, and I had a +100% colony (of one research type). The AI did not build any station for that type, and as far as I could see, it was "correct". The 100% colony seemed to compete with other location bonuses, and it won easily.

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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 11:46:32 AM   
Bingeling

 

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How does scientists work?

From the screenshot above, it seems that normal scientists work the same as location bonuses, they are added. So it is all about best scientist with the best research location to create the highest empire bonus?

So if the energy scientist in the screenshot (assuming it is only 1) moves to the Sivarkus 2 Spaceport, research bonus for energy would fall to 37%? Sivarkus spaceport at 0 + 37 = 37 and Bilcadan research station at 26 + 0 = 26, making the Sivarkus spaceport the best energy location?

The screenshot also got a more fancy empire wide scientist bonus, which should be irrelevant in this (but quite powerful).


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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 7:50:57 PM   
feelotraveller


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

How does scientists work?

From the screenshot above, it seems that normal scientists work the same as location bonuses, they are added. So it is all about best scientist with the best research location to create the highest empire bonus?

So if the energy scientist in the screenshot (assuming it is only 1) moves to the Sivarkus 2 Spaceport, research bonus for energy would fall to 37%? Sivarkus spaceport at 0 + 37 = 37 and Bilcadan research station at 26 + 0 = 26, making the Sivarkus spaceport the best energy location?

The screenshot also got a more fancy empire wide scientist bonus, which should be irrelevant in this (but quite powerful).





Yep. Assuming that there are no bonuses which aren't currently showing on that screen.

The bonus for each area of research takes the best location bonus after the effects of scientists at that location are factored in. Worth moving your scientists around for maximum effect. It starts to get interesting once you have several scientists with bonuses in more than one area... Multiple scientist bonuses in the same field at the same location have a diminishing effect, it's half for the second, for example.

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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/18/2013 8:44:07 PM   
Bingeling

 

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I think characters are a chore and a mess, so I leave them automated in hope that the AI will mess up. It did a decent job doing that with my admirals in the AAR at least.

One could hope that in shadows, perfecting play could be preferred opposed to gimping your play a much as possible.

Characters in this game annoys me, though. The less I see of them the happier I am :) It never hurts to try remember how stuff works, though.

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RE: How much Research is Enough Research - 1/20/2013 9:17:05 PM   
unclean

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gareth_Bryne
Excellent screenshot! But a algebraic clarification:

You're right, fixed :)

(in reply to Shuttle Door Gunner)
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