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Casualty filtering?

 
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Casualty filtering? - 1/17/2013 6:29:54 PM   
RockinHarry


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From: Germany
Status: offline 		From an older patch thread located here:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2933033


# Mods to APerFire and AArmFire including:


* Reduce prob of firing if the hit probability gets below a threshold ( 20% for RPGs and 10% for all other weapons ).
* Reduce impact of covered terrain mod if the engagement range is under 100m and even more if under 50m.
* Reduced adverse impact of weapon accuracy for RPGs.
* Ensure FirerLoc and targetLoc are used for determining grenade range. This should now make the grenade bonus work for APer fire when firer and target are within 25m.
* Ensured targetsPerShot uses burstArea not burstRadius. This increases lethality of heavy cannon fire against personnel targets.
* Adjusted impact of acquisition mod on APerFire.
* Increased suppression effects.
* Ensure that the range used for AArm fire against Mot and Mech Inf when dismounted is set between the mid and long range of the unit formation. Is set between min and long range if mounted. This increases survivability of half tracks in the assault.
* Ensured BFTB casualty figures were within historical values. Baselined the first day of the tutorial scenario and reduced personnel casualty figures to a realistic 5-7% for the attacking force and between 21 and 28% for the defending force.


I´d be particularly interested in the last:

* Ensured BFTB casualty figures were within historical values. Baselined the first day of the tutorial scenario and reduced personnel casualty figures to a realistic 5-7% for the attacking force and between 21 and 28% for the defending force.

Does that mean, all casualty computing in game is sort of capped or limited, to reflect these sort of "historical values"? Or in other words, no matter how you tweak Estab and Terrain data, final casualty results are "filtered"?

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RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/17/2013 9:39:45 PM   
Arjuna


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From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		No there is no capping of casualties.

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RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/17/2013 9:41:28 PM   
wodin


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From: England
Status: offline 		Also Dave is the new suppression code working as you expect? It seems Inf against inf fighting just doesn't seem to be working..even Elite units all that seems to happen is suppression to rise with little casualties and then they retreat or rout again even when they've only taken a few casualties..Even when units footprint overlap where you expect them to be in close combat again very few casualties just lots of suppression. The outcome is Inf vs Inf fighting doesn't seem to work well or appear to play out realistically.

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RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/17/2013 9:45:22 PM   
Arjuna


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Status: offline 		wodin,

Thanks for that observation.

Others,

Has anyone else observed this. It would be good to have a save where this is occuring.

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RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/17/2013 10:43:01 PM   
Arjuna


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Status: offline 		BTW RockinHarry,

How would you like to join our Beta Test Team? You get access to our debug builds and get to contribute to the design and development of our products on our private dev forum. You would have to sign a simple Non Disclosure Agt and provide a bried resume with any experience you may have in game development or the military.

Let me know if you are interested.

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Post #: 5
RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/17/2013 11:13:44 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

wodin,

Thanks for that observation.

Others,

Has anyone else observed this. It would be good to have a save where this is occuring.


Well, I think that I agree with Wodin with respect to Command Ops engine not being the meat grinder other engines out there tend to be (I come to think of PanzerCampaigns or, at the tactical level, CMx2). Direct fire between infantry in the game doesn't really play like the ending scene of The Wild Bunch. Another matter is the effect of artillery: that's a big killer.

So I tend to think that Command Ops gets this quite right. But, of course, I might be wrong.

What scenario were you playing Wodin? With Beta Patch 4? Do you have an screenshot of the AAR screen?

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RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/17/2013 11:27:00 PM   
wodin


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From: England
Status: offline 		It was testing outside of a scenario..it maynot be a meat grinder BUT when footprints are overlapped and lead and grenades are being thrown and still few casualties if any but loads of suppression and retreat something doesn't seem right. When you take arty out the mix and just use Inf vs Inf it seems strange. At the moment small arms suppresses units out of cover and then arty finishes them off in the open.

I agree at the end the AAR's look OK..but when you see it in action it seems strange..elite units dug in being suppressed by small arms until they vacate foxholes and then finished off by Arty..leaving cover with little to no casualties aswell. It seems few are actually standing up and having a fight of it.

All this is through observation during the combat and monitoring losses etc small scale testing.

I can't say too much as it isn't me testing but someone I know, we had a discussion today about it. So thought I'd share the finds.

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Post #: 7
RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/18/2013 2:41:21 AM   
Arjuna


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Status: offline 		I ran my combat test scenario here which pits a German Inf Bn attacking an ntrenched US Inf coy. I can see what you mean about a lod of lead for few cas. I revisited the APerFire code and I have tweaked one of the hit prob variables that deals with accuracy and increased it as the range gets closer. That should favour Inf closing with the enemy. They will still have to run the gauntlet to close with the enemy, but once at close range their APer fire should be more effective. I ahven't been able to test this yet as I have some unfinished code to attend to in relation tot he formations. I need to finish that first. I'll be back.

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Post #: 8
RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/18/2013 3:17:24 AM   
RockinHarry


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From: Germany
Status: offline 		Wodin refered to me, talking about ongoing OP Veritable development issues. Thanks for answering the cap question! The patch notes above were somewhat misleading to me.

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RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/18/2013 4:56:55 AM   
Arjuna


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Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Sorry about that. The trouble is these are written up usually straight after fixing each issue while I am intinately aquainted with what is happening. Alas they could benefit from some review but time is always of the essence.

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RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/18/2013 5:06:07 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Wodin refered to me, talking about ongoing OP Veritable development issues.


Now Wodin answer makes more sense to me

I think I will try to make a test scenario like Dave's, and try to get some hard data.

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Post #: 11
RE: Casualty filtering? - 1/18/2013 5:27:01 AM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
Wodin refered to me, talking about ongoing OP Veritable development issues.


Now Wodin answer makes more sense to me

I think I will try to make a test scenario like Dave's, and try to get some hard data.


Thanks! The more the better!

Note: I stripped my test infantry coys off heavy weapons (HMG, mortars) and made a very simple test map setup. No artillery and tanks involved off course. That gave me a rather undisturbed view on events, revealing more of basic infantry combat and its outcomes.

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Post #: 12
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