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Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario

 
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Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/13/2013 8:59:29 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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Anyone else agree?
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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/14/2013 1:35:05 AM   
gwgardner

 

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Playing against the AI I've had mixed results as the Axis. If the Allies play badly, then yes. Sometimes the Allied AI would be too aggressive in Italy and get itself in deep trouble. I did find that the Germans seemed rather strong in the southern part of the East front.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 1/14/2013 1:37:13 AM >

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/14/2013 2:59:55 AM   
Mark Clark

 

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So, playing as the allies/SU, I find that in the first two turns, the Germans absolutley kick my ass no matter what I do. They destroy whole armored corps at will and break my lines everywhere. By the fifth turn or so, their overwhelming superiority in the South crashes through my lines and there is nothing I can do.

This is ahistorical to say the least.

What am I doing wrong?

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/14/2013 4:40:10 PM   
JLPOWELL


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Germans way overpowered in ALL scenarios. Later scenarios are worse Clash of Titans likely the very worst. The game is designed for average to poor player (usually expected to play Germany) vrs an AI. Translate this to PvP taking away the huge cheats the AI gets and you end up with overpowered Axis balance. Add things like huge numbers of frozen USSR units in CoT and it gets ridiculous. Fortunately this can be addressed via modding the initial setups.

I think there is a pro Germany bias built into all WW2 games as I think it helps sell the games. Typical casual customer plays plays few games and usually picks Axis I expect.

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/14/2013 4:59:24 PM   
gwgardner

 

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One option is a simple mod to increase the Soviet War Level and/or lower the German. or same with technology levels.

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/14/2013 5:07:46 PM   
JLPOWELL


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That would help another option is to freeze all German units for one turn (easily modded) so the allies move first. The Allies and USSR should have the initiative at this point and moving first is a very significant advantage.

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/15/2013 2:12:08 AM   
Mark Clark

 

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This is pretty ridiculous. I have full strength armored corps, surrenduring to the Germans, in 1944?????

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/15/2013 3:40:16 AM   
gwgardner

 

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modify the countries.csv in your save game folder, and if it's not there, in the scenario folder. It's clearly labeled in the file which entry has to be changed. It's the 16th entry in the country data. Germany land warfare doctrine is set to 5, while Russia's is set to 4. Probably to reflect the degredation of the German army by '44, that level for Germany should be reduced to 3 or even more.

Another option would be to go into the land_units.csv and reduce the strength for all the German units by some percentage to reflect that by that time they were shells of their former selves.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 1/15/2013 3:43:10 AM >

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/15/2013 3:54:49 AM   
battlevonwar

 

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I'm unsure so far in Patch3...

The strategic possibilities I have seen in the earlier scenarios gives the Allies a chance to get upgraded very early and threatening. So long as the USSR can actually survive. I have never seen the USSR survive, which she did a fairly good job.....in fact in every war she has ever fought! I haven't seen a 1.3 USSR played from 1939, just about half a dozen or so where she is really not a playable major in earlier patches. Not without exploits.

I remember playing Strategic Command 1/2 a lot. We would learn every little script, little nuance and that would make us better at winning every time.. Much like any Strategy Game. The person that exploits the game has a great advantage.

Here whatever way you can get the USSR from folding, put a house rule on Sea Lion and pray you can get the cash and units to match the Germans before 1944(given someone survives that long) gives you a chance at victory. I have only ever seen the Axis lose once, against anyone!

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 1/15/2013 3:57:21 AM >

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/25/2013 11:30:29 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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This is really frustrating and not a little ridiculous.

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/26/2013 3:00:27 AM   
Mark Clark

 

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Actually, it's completely, absurdly ridiculous. In this game, the Germans are stronger in 1944--by a factor of about 10--than the real Germans were in 1941. What is this, a Wermacht fanboy wet dream or a historical simulation?

It's not a little bit off, it's a joke.

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/27/2013 1:26:19 AM   
JLPOWELL


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There is a tenancy to bias play balance toward Germany in WW2 games. I have seen this from nearly all publishers to some extent. It is I suspect to some extent market driven as I expect most single player games are played as Axis. The ToF game design appears optimized for GE vrs AI. Once you move away from that the game balance tends to skew a bit (More later in the war)

This game is a pretty good starting point. I really much prefer to play than mod, but I like the game enough that I plan to do some significant play balance mods at a stable build perhaps 1.04. I have been doing some work on balancing Barbarossa and Clash of Titans in 1.03, but not ready to call it 'done' (Much thanks to BattlevonWar and GWGARDNER for input and assistance.)

I am looking for some idea of the consensus regarding what is needed. I am targeting historical over than 'equal chance' play balance.

See below for a unorganized list of general and specific observations:


My focus is ONLY PvP not PvAI and am sure what I am looking at breaks AI balance such as it is

Some things I am trying or have tried are:

Changing start so ALL axis units are frozen one turn (basically this gives Allies first turn) in later scenarios CoT and Got

House rule NO ships or subs in Bay of Biscay until UK or USA place units there - Axis can then respond and and deploy in the Bay freely. The Bay of Biscay totally breaks the game balance re convoys as they USUALLY route through there. I hope this will get fixed but totally broken at present so a House Rule is only solution as it is not modifiable.

Consider removing most or all ALL German navy events (no cash no ships Player doesn't get to pick in PBEM anyway)

Trim away LOTs of junk events (events are used to prop up weak AI and are way off for PvP)

Set USSR Strategic movement points to 9 (up from 6)

Adjust USSR effectiveness and starting forces (unfreeze) mostly this affects CoT

Adjust Vichy event to give 'control' but not 'ownership' of N Africa hexes to Germany if triggered

Push back End of Vichy Event trigger to September It was done in response to a threat (an actual invasion) not in anticipation of one. If Germany had just done this unilaterally it is VERY likely N Africa Vichy would have just Joined allies. It currently triggers before Allies can get any invasion forces in place.

Look into adding some beaches on west coast of N Africa only on is silly, inaccurate and makes Torch impossible (am OK with difficult but impossible is unreasonable.)

Change fleet engagement percents (thinking of double)Naval rules pretty weak

Increase US Navy tech relative Axis (currently often behind Italy LOL)

increase USA R&D at start of scenarios (gives a boost where realistic but not too much $$$)

My general opinion re balance by country follows

Italy (should be stronger on land)
Germany Too strong on land usually WAY to strong at sea
USSR too weak in all areas and surprise events way out of wack
UK Too weak at sea land build limits too low
USA WAY too weak in all areas particularly in later scenarios and economy in all scenarios force limits WAY to low
France too weak on land too weak economy Vichy rules total mess

All that said IMO ToF is the best WW2 game currently available at theater level. (one continues to wait for World in Flames, but life is short so we play what we have...)

Comments and suggestions are welcome.



< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 1/27/2013 1:32:11 AM >


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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/27/2013 2:15:57 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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The last game I played with any regularity was Commander: Europe at War.  The modders did a heroic job building in new features--I mean that, the Grand Strategy mod is truly great.  BUT--for me, their monomaniacal fixation on historical accuracy makes the game boring.  Basically, the game has to play out exactly like the real war--almost down to the exact dates--or else they think their mods are failures.  That is TOO narrow for me.  I want a game where different outcomes are possible, and, yes, where it's possible for the Axis to win.

But this one seems too unbalanced the other way.  I will caveat that I've only played Case Yellow, Overlord, and now Gotterdamerung.  I had no problem with the first two but GD is crushing me.  The Germans have such overwhelming strength, especially in armor, that all I can do is set and maintain a line. Taking the offensive is basically impossible.  As soon as I try, the lead forces are surrounded and crushed.  Especially in the south, the German concentrations are massive.

Also, I can deal with Southern Italy fine but the Germans regroup around Florence and to the north with the same result--all I am able to do as the Allies is set and hold a line.  Offensive operations past Florence have for me thus far been impossible.

Maybe I just suck at the game--a distinct possibilty--but so far I have not been able to win this scenario against the AI.

I thought the purpose of a 1944 scenario was to give the Allies an easy win or a super-hard game for the Axis.  Does not seem to be working that way.

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/27/2013 2:21:09 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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BTW, I say this from a position of admiration.  I like the game a lot.  I think it is superior to CEAW-GS.  It's more fun for me at any rate.  I like the scale and the mechanics.  There are some things I would like to see--HQ units and a better naval game above all--but I do think this is a terrific game.  I just think this scenario is skewed.

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/27/2013 2:57:25 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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Another thing: divisions are absolutely useless, at least for the Russians.  They are just sitting ducks.  They can't accomplish anything and they are destroyed by a stiff breeze.

Should I just take at as a given that all divisions must be upgraded to corps?

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/27/2013 8:02:42 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Divisons for SU are worthless lol. So if you are to have any chance at all, you have to have Corps.

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/27/2013 8:31:28 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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Also, the Luftwaffe is staggering.  Anyone who knows anything about the war knows that by spring 1944 the Germans had hardly any air presense in the west.  Not in this game!  I can destroy 2-3 squadrons PER TURN and next turn he always has more, sometimes way more than I destroyed the last turn.

And this is with strat bombing his cities down to zero or close every turn.  WTF???

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/27/2013 10:19:08 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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I take it a level 3 fighter squadron will lose against a level 4 100% of the time?

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/27/2013 10:53:13 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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So, there are several hexes where you're covered on three sides by a river.  Hard to attack, easy to defend, right?

When it's my forces against the Germans, three full strength corps are given 1:1, or at most 1:2, against his one.  When the Germans gang up on me, my Russian full strength corps simply surrenders.

WTF?????

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/27/2013 10:58:32 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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OK, again, WTF??? The German airforce in the West is HUGE and grows by several squadrons every turn IN 1944!!!!  Moreover, they are all level 4.  The Americans, stuck at level 3, cannot even dent them.  Not once, not ever.  Suicide mission every time. Every sortie, you lose a step (or two), they lose nothing. Every. Single. Time.

So only the Brits can play.  And only if the player spends a fortune (and several turns) upgrading every squadron to 4. Well, when a German squadron is at 10 steps, you basically have to spend five steps to knock it down to 9 or 8, at which time you might have a chance--but only with a full strength squadron.  So, you grind one of yours down to five to give another one at 10 three chances to knock a German unit down to (maybe) 7. Basically, the Germans completely dominate the air--IN 1944!!!!!!!!!

And where are they getting the money for this airforce?  I have their cities consistently at or close to zero through strat bombing.

The mechanics of this game have a lot going for it but the balance is atrocious.  It is, fundamentally, broken and a joke.

< Message edited by Mark Clark -- 1/27/2013 11:03:58 PM >

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/28/2013 12:08:39 AM   
Mark Clark

 

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I am going to play a game on Very Easy with my enemies on Very Hard and see what happens.  Maybe I can fight to a draw.

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It's Magic AI Research - 1/28/2013 3:35:43 PM   
Omnius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Clark

OK, again, WTF??? The German airforce in the West is HUGE and grows by several squadrons every turn IN 1944!!!!  Moreover, they are all level 4.  The Americans, stuck at level 3, cannot even dent them.  Not once, not ever.  Suicide mission every time. Every sortie, you lose a step (or two), they lose nothing. Every. Single. Time.

So only the Brits can play.  And only if the player spends a fortune (and several turns) upgrading every squadron to 4. Well, when a German squadron is at 10 steps, you basically have to spend five steps to knock it down to 9 or 8, at which time you might have a chance--but only with a full strength squadron.  So, you grind one of yours down to five to give another one at 10 three chances to knock a German unit down to (maybe) 7. Basically, the Germans completely dominate the air--IN 1944!!!!!!!!!

And where are they getting the money for this airforce?  I have their cities consistently at or close to zero through strat bombing.

The mechanics of this game have a lot going for it but the balance is atrocious.  It is, fundamentally, broken and a joke.


Mark Clark,
The AI research looks like magic because it is magically programmed that AI controlled countries get the next level of tech on a set time basis. There is a whole section of the event programming that gives the AI-controlled countries their new tech levels on a set time basis. The AI's don't have to spend any PP's on research.

The AI is given many cheats. I see that the AI countries aren't hampered by the 10% reinforcement limitation we have when in enemy territory, they can add massive reinforcements into units in enemy territory as if they were in their home country. The AI countries have magic strategic movement, they don't even need to be near rail lines to use it. I do see AI's wasting too many PP's on STP's and AIP's.

The Artificial Ignorance does many things wrong but these cheats help level the playing field against us humans. I play around with the AI for a faster game but for a better game I play all countries myself. I don't get as much suspense but do get a better game playting solitaire.

You do realize that you can go into the saved game files and edit things like tech levels don't you? They're basically OpenOffice spreadsheets and you can edit them to change or fix things. So cheat the cheating AI, it's only fair.
Omnius

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RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/29/2013 1:50:21 AM   
JLPOWELL


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This post [link= http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3259668[/link] has a modification which I think fixes the technology in this scenario

< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 1/29/2013 1:51:37 AM >


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AAR RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung scenario - 1/31/2013 7:32:23 AM   
JLPOWELL


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Not enough detail here for an actual AAR, but when I looked at this from a PvP perspective the GE do appear a bit heavy particularly in air. I played the standard scenario (v1.03 as provided not my MoD) to see how hard it actually is. The results were a bit surprising.

The USSR has to go on the Defensive for several months which indicates they are under-powered. In the west things are very different the AI just can't handle the dynamic of invasions and airdrops, and the UK/USA crushed the AI. Italy was taken in late May, and Hamburg Berlin Copenhagen and Paris were all taken by September 1944 (USSR really never got any traction, but was on the offensive by mid summer.

Settings were FOW set to 3 everything else at the scenario default. US/UK/USSR/Iraq/Persia/Free French/ Human all others AI.

Suggestions to strengthen AI (AI only scenarios this would mess up a PBEM game IMO)
German AI needs strong frozen units on all objective hexes particularly Milan

Generally the scenario has German air way overrated vrs Allied air particularly USA
USSR very weak on ground (again in 1944 ouch...) Recommend increase USSR tech on tanks and inf to 4 and a war effectiveness boost. Adding some (quite a few) frozen units on rails behind the lines with 'freeze expiration' set at intervals would be an easy mod.

Really didn't like Axis bombing units in England early in game and attacking ftrs based there (successfully) and USSR getting pushed back in spring of 44

I think the Germany is overpowered vrs the USSR, and has sufficient strength to hold the allies, but insufficient 'I'

General impression is US is under powered compared to UK with serious lag in tech (Really in 1944 seriously)and the USSR should be able to go on the offensive (again this is 1944) but the scenario is not as out balance as a quick look indicated.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark Clark

Anyone else agree?


< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 1/31/2013 7:36:26 AM >


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RE: AAR RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung s... - 2/3/2013 9:34:57 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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I'm at the point where I think it's just time to give up. I cannot figure out how to mount an offensive to save my life.

The SU is a total patsy.  I have to have dead straight line everywhere or I lose corps.  Full strenght corps, mech, WITH a general, behind a river on three sides, gets attacked and surrenders every time.

ANY corps that can be attacked on three sides, even if every single one of those attacks is over water, surrenders every time.

Whenever I face a German corps in the same situation, I get at best 4:1 odds. I can't ever kill it or make it surrender. Even when they have LOWER values than the ones I am losing.

So my lines can have no "knees."

There is no way to mount an offensive.

Is the game supposed to be this way or am I just doing something wrong?

< Message edited by Mark Clark -- 2/3/2013 9:45:00 PM >

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RE: AAR RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung s... - 2/3/2013 10:41:12 PM   
JLPOWELL


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quote:

Is the game supposed to be this way or am I just doing something wrong?


USSR is under-powered in this (and most scenarios) Still the AI is so dull it wasn't hard to win the scenario.

Here are a few hints.

1. Unrealistic as it seems USSR needs to go on defensive and even fall back,try to keep cities however (I lost Odessa LOL like that was ever going to happen in 44) until you can build up an air force and a lot of full strength corps units. The only way to push the uber strong German units is to bomb the poop out of them. The AI will overextend as well (it is dumb as a rock) so you as you fall back you can cut in behind and isolate the overpowered units (you can kill any uber unit if bombed, out of supply and hit from 4 5 or 6 sides)

2. US and UK can beat the Germans in the west (Only vrs AI not much hope vrs human I expect) Send USD$$ to UK as they can build level 4 units. Use UK units to push and swarm and hold with lots of US units. Fly recon and do invasions where Germans are not defending.

You can't say the Germans are unbeatable. The AI is REALLY dumb but has REALLY strong units. I was never able to get much offensive traction with the USSR except in Finland. The US UK however took Italy in about 6 turns, Then Berlin and Hamburg (both the German MSS sources) by October of 44. Germany doesn't surrender however and the AI put an enormous number of units in Norway which I expect would have take a long time to root out. I stopped & called it a win with Paris Copenhagen, Benelux, the Ruhr, Hamburg and Berlin in US/UK control in Oct 1944.

The absolute key to killing the big German units is LOTS of air power. I am not saying this is historically accurate or realistic, but you play the game you are in not the one you want to be in (for me that's World in Flames which I hope to play sometime before 2020) Another key to fighting Germany in this game (vrs Human or AI) is to stop powerful units from gaining experience particularly armor corps. Pretty much raining Tac and STR on them to keep them weak (they reinforce but loose experience)

Good Luck, once you get good at beating up the AI you are ready to try PBEM....


< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 2/3/2013 10:42:23 PM >


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RE: AAR RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung s... - 2/3/2013 10:47:09 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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Yeah, I was concluding that setting defensive lines was the way to go.  Clearly I have also been underutilizing my air force as well.

Thanks.

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RE: AAR RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung s... - 2/3/2013 11:24:34 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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OK, a 100% corps just surrendered to a two-pronged attack, one across a river.

Does every unit have to be a freaking armored corps to survive?

< Message edited by Mark Clark -- 2/3/2013 11:26:37 PM >

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RE: AAR RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung s... - 2/4/2013 2:18:12 AM   
JLPOWELL


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USSR is tough to play at these settings, a level 4 full German Armor Corps can be over 50 attack a level 2 USSR inf corps could get killed by one let alone 2. Try to leave a retreat route and put good leaders where you think you will get attacked. I am not defending the scenario, it is totally bogus the USSR is pushed back so easily at this point in the war. But as USSR (in this scenario as designed )you need to back up and build up before you can do much of anything.

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RE: AAR RE: Germans way overpowered in Gotterdamerung s... - 2/8/2013 8:05:44 PM   
Mark Clark

 

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Just flew 15 consecutive sorties against a single german fighter squadron.  Mine all at level 4 and so was his.  Did not make a dent, not ONE step.  He chewed half of mine down to level six, however.

Can someone explain that?  Bad luck?  Or do you need aircraft at level 99 before you can take on the invincible AI?

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