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The Sub War - 1/12/2013 9:22:01 AM   
Orm


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Now I have attacked French or British convoys three times in a row with my German class II sub without doing any damage at all. When I am Allied I always do 1 or 2 in damage on the German convoy with the British class II sub. Is this intentional? I feel that I am wasting time and resources hunting for the Allied convoys with my sub.


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RE: The Sub War - 1/13/2013 7:42:35 PM   
Orm


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Anyone has an answer to this?

I've seen plenty of attacks by the Brittish submarine and they always damage the German convoy. Even when the Brittish sub has reduced strength. So far I have not seen a German sub of same class damage an Allied convoy.

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RE: The Sub War - 1/13/2013 7:50:51 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

Anyone has an answer to this?

I've seen plenty of attacks by the Brittish submarine and they always damage the German convoy. Even when the Brittish sub has reduced strength. So far I have not seen a German sub of same class damage an Allied convoy.
warspite1

I have noticed this too. When the Germans use wolf packs the losses increase with each sub, but always seem to start with nil.

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RE: The Sub War - 9/16/2013 5:46:30 PM   
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Suprass

From my Entente point of view; You display a desire for more potent sub victories (not good for me), however, the balance should be a versatile Entente cruiser fleet. Especially, in the Naval research techs. Currently a hidden sub cannot be spotted unless by chance the whole match, untill your opponents' ship happens to land in that hex (a very low probability % of that happening). With the improved naval techs, I would like to have an increased area (1 hex all directions) of sub detection, around lets say a cruiser. A trade off for certain and how it would affect the gaming model, could be beta tested, if even the idea got that far. Just thinking out loud for consideration in the upcoming patch.

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RE: The Sub War - 9/16/2013 8:30:17 PM   
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I didn't saw this before your topic- I was blind... You are right- something is wrong...

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RE: The Sub War - 10/6/2013 7:11:12 AM   
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I have doubled the submarines search radius, from 2 to 4, in an effort to help them seek out CONVOYS ! Since a Submarine unit, is supposed to represents several submarines, I have increased there search area.




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< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/6/2013 7:13:20 AM >


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RE: The Sub War - 10/6/2013 3:44:00 PM   
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How many miles across does a sea hex represent?

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RE: The Sub War - 10/6/2013 4:35:41 PM   
kirk23


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I don't think there is a hard and fast scale, but I would think a hex represents anything from 10 - 30 miles across, so if 1 submarine unit represents approx. 10 submarines, then there search area could even be bigger than what I have shown above, this is the problem with abstract games its all guess work, you just think off a number and say that sound feasible.

From Edinburgh to London as the crow flies is approx 350 miles, and there is 12 hexes from Edinburgh to London on the map, so that scale would indicate a hex = 25 miles approx!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/6/2013 4:50:32 PM >


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RE: The Sub War - 10/6/2013 7:22:28 PM   
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quote:

I like German subs when playing as CP, convoys are predicable and totally out of owner's control, like little fat ducklings, in the view of a periscope. Here's a point I differ from the game; Tactically, wolfpacks were spread out to screen for targets, then pull together, to attack, usually a convoy, I don't get that feeling in this game, at least not a strong one. Perhaps notes by the designers, as to the how and why they came up with the different schemes in the game might help, but that is like pulling teeth, to get answers to.


Here is part of a post I did in the Slitherine forum/Russian Revolution? a few weeks ago.

As a trade off; cruisers should be able to have (at some point) a greater sub locating ability.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 10:19:34 AM   
kirk23


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I think the cruiser having the ability to locate at submerged submarine, at more than one hex is a none starter, if a hex equals approx 25 miles, 2 hex range off nearly 50 miles is a no no ! that feat can't really be accomplished with present day technology, never mind WORLD WAR 1. Also if as hoped the Destroyer, gets added to the unit mix, then it will be the Destroyer who benefits from any new anti - Submarine technology, and not Battleships or Cruisers.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 5:40:11 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

I don't think there is a hard and fast scale, but I would think a hex represents anything from 10 - 30 miles across, so if 1 submarine unit represents approx. 10 submarines, then there search area could even be bigger than what I have shown above, this is the problem with abstract games its all guess work, you just think off a number and say that sound feasible.

From Edinburgh to London as the crow flies is approx 350 miles, and there is 12 hexes from Edinburgh to London on the map, so that scale would indicate a hex = 25 miles approx!


Your assumption is that subs are "submerged" all the time (in game), when in reality; they were on the surface most of the time.

This is part of the reason why cruisers, with increased techs, should have increased ability to detect subs. Or for that matter; Aireal (sp?) detection. Cruisers of the day, had seaplanes...

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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 6:47:27 PM   
kirk23


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quote:

ORIGINAL: operating


quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

I don't think there is a hard and fast scale, but I would think a hex represents anything from 10 - 30 miles across, so if 1 submarine unit represents approx. 10 submarines, then there search area could even be bigger than what I have shown above, this is the problem with abstract games its all guess work, you just think off a number and say that sound feasible.

From Edinburgh to London as the crow flies is approx 350 miles, and there is 12 hexes from Edinburgh to London on the map, so that scale would indicate a hex = 25 miles approx!


Your assumption is that subs are "submerged" all the time (in game), when in reality; they were on the surface most of the time.

This is part of the reason why cruisers, with increased techs, should have increased ability to detect subs. Or for that matter; Aireal (sp?) detection. Cruisers of the day, had seaplanes...


I will agree with you, submarines did indeed spend most of the time on the surface, but its far easier to spot a ship the size of a cruiser, than a surfaced submarine, there is a far greater chance of the submarine submerging long before a cruiser could close the range gap before any attack could take place.

There was 104 Allied warships sunk by German U Boats World War 1.

http://uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/warships.html

As for cruisers that carried seaplanes, they were very rare, and virtually none before 1917. I will investigate the true number off Cruisers that carried any Seaplanes during any period WW1.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/7/2013 7:08:53 PM >


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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 7:39:02 PM   
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Checked English naval tech (CTGW) for BBs, shows picture of takeoff platform mounted on top of guns, another tech shows a crane for lifting on/off a BB for seaplanes. Actually this should be for both BBs and cruisers. Also, if I am not mistaken; The first aircraft carrier was invented late in the war, by the English.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 7:49:26 PM   
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What this game shows as tech, and what actually happened, are two different things, most of what takes place in this game is pure fiction! Also no cruiser was ever fitted with depth charges world war 1, only Destroyers were manouverable and fast enough for anti-submarine roll.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 7:49:28 PM   
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The Beginnings of Seaplanes and Naval Aviation



Overview

A floatplane is essentially a development of land-based aircraft, with floats mounted under the fuselage instead of a wheeled landing gear. Floatplanes are traditionally more popular than flying boats for small aircraft designs, since it permits a single piston engine to be installed at the nose of the fuselage. This could be done on flying boats only by mounting the engine high above the fuselage. The fuselages of floatplanes are typically more aerodynamic than flying boats; while the large floats underneath the fuselages add extra drag and weight to floatplanes, rendering them less manoeuvrable during flight than their land-based counterparts. The installation of the floats resulted in a loss of speed, slower rate of climb and increased empty weight.


Table of Contents


Float Planes
World War One Floatplanes
American Float Planes: 1914-1918
British Float Planes: 1914-1918
French Float Planes: 1914-1918
Russian Float Planes: 1914-1918
German Float Planes: 1914-1918

Flying Boats
World War One Flying Boats
British Flying Boats: 1914-1918
Italian Flying Boats: 1914-1918
Russian Flying Boats: 1914-1918
Austrian Flying Boats: 1914-1918
German Flying Boats: 1914-1918

Aerial Warfare Goes to Sea



The word "seaplane" is used to describe two types of air/water amphibious flying vehicles: the floatplane and the flying boat. Both floatplanes and flying boats may be referred to as seaplanes, but it is merely a generic term.

Seaplane Tenders

Between 1910 and 1914 the navies of all the major powers became interested in using aircraft for reconnaissance purposes. The RNAS experimented with ships carrying small platforms from which aircraft could take off. There were two problems with the concept. Takeoff weights were limited and no practical solution to landing was immediately discovered.

The RNAS found the implementaton of "seaplane tenders" more practical. These ships carried a small number of seaplanes that could be lowered by crane over the side. At the end of their flight they would land next to the ship and be raised back on deck.

The first seaplane tender was the H.M.S. Hermes, which was torpedoed and sunk in November of 1914. However at the outbreak of the war the Navy requisitioned three cross-channel packet boats and converted them as seaplane tenders. These were the Engadine, Riviera and Empress.

Other navies also used seaplane tenders. The Russians Black Sea fleet used them quite aggressively in their campaign to blockade the Bosphorus and prevent shipments of coal to Istanbul. Their most successful raid was on the 6th of February 1916, when a flight of eleven M-9 seaplanes from the ships Emperor Aleksandr I and Emperor Nikolai I attacked the port of Zonguldak. Among other damage they sank the Turkish collier Jamingard.


Seaplane Tenders

The first seaplane carrier, the French Foudre in 1912.

HMS Hermes at Simon's Bay, Coronation Day, 1911.

HMS Empress was a First World War Royal Navy seaplane carrier.

Naval Aircraft



Floatplanes

Sopwith Baby - 1915

Sopwith Baby

A floatplane is essentially a development of land-based aircraft, with floats mounted under the fuselage instead of a wheeled landing gear. Floatplanes are traditionally more popular than flying boats for small aircraft designs, since it permits a single piston engine to be installed at the nose of the fuselage. This could be done on flying boats only by mounting the engine high above the fuselage. The fuselages of floatplanes are typically more aerodynamic than flying boats; while the large floats underneath the fuselages add extra drag and weight to floatplanes, rendering them less manoeuvrable during flight than their land-based counterparts. The installation of the floats resulted in a loss of speed, slower rate of climb and increased empty weight.

A floatplane has slender pontoons mounted under the fuselage. Two floats are common, but other configurations are possible. Only the "floats" of a floatplane normally come into contact with water. The fuselage remains above water.


Flying Boats

Hansa-Brandenburg W.18 - 1917

In a flying boat, the main source of buoyancy is the fuselage, which acts like a ship's hull in the water. Most flying boats have small floats mounted on their wings to keep them stable. Not all small seaplanes have been floatplanes, but all large seaplanes have been flying boats, their great weight supported on their hull.

Flying boats were some of the largest aircraft of the first half of the 20th century, dwarfed in size only by bombers developed during World War II. Their advantage lay in using water for take-offs and landings instead of expensive land-based runways. Several examples of flying boats could be transported and launched by the usage of specially designed seperate wheeled carriages.

Their flexibility of operation made them the basis for international airlines in the mid-war period. They were also commonly used for maritime reconnaissance patrols, cargo transportation and air-sea rescue.

Carrier Based Seaplanes



Beardmore W.B.III

Beardmore W.B.III-1917

Beardmore W.B.III

The Beardmore WB.III, nicknamed the folding Pup was a British carrier-based fighter biplane of World War I. It was a development of the Sopwith Pup that William Beardmore and Company was then building under licence, but was specially adapted for shipboard use.

The Beardmore W.B. III was built to be used on aircraft carriers as naval scouts. It featured a redesigned wing cellule with no stagger, facilitating folding for stowage, a stretched fuselage that carried emergency floatation gear, and main undercarriage that could be folded for stowage (though not in flight). Later models had fixed landing gear that could be jettisoned off in case of an emergency landing at sea. A lewis machine gun was mounted on the upper wing that fired over the propeller. By the end of 1918, one hundred of these aircraft were deployed by the Royal Naval Air Service on the carriers HMS Furious, Nairana and Pegasus.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 7:55:48 PM   
kirk23


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Hold on a moment, Seaplane carriers or tenders, were converted merchant ships, not cruisers, light cruisers world war one were not large enough to operate Seaplanes, Dreadnoughts and Battlecruisers could. Aircraftcarriers are not in the game.

World War I and the first carrier strikes.

The first strike from a carrier against a land target as well as a sea target took place in September 1914 when the Imperial Japanese Navy seaplane carrier Wakamiya conducted the world's first ship-launched air raids, from Kiaochow Bay during the Battle of Tsingtao in China. The four Maurice Farman seaplanes bombarded German-held land targets (communication centers and command centers) and damaged a German minelayer in the Tsingtao peninsula from September until November 6, 1914, when the Germans surrendered.

On the Western front the first naval air raid occurred on December 25, 1914 when twelve seaplanes from HMS Engadine, Riviera and Empress (cross-channel steamers converted into seaplane carriers ) attacked the Zeppelin base at Cuxhaven. Fog, low cloud and anti-aircraft fire prevented the raid from being a complete success, but the raid demonstrated the feasibility of attack by ship-borne aircraft and showed the strategic importance of this new weapon.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/7/2013 8:09:35 PM >


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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 8:15:40 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Hold on a moment, Seaplane carriers or tenders, were converted merchant ships, not cruisers, light cruisers world war one were not large enough to operate Seaplanes, Dreadnoughts and Battlecruisers could. Aircraftcarriers are not in the game.

quote:

"World War I," Encarta� Online Encyclopedia 2001
http://encarta.msn.com

That was a quick google search, it was more FYI, more than anything, as well as the following quote. Still looking for a definitive answer to; Did (how many) cruisers have search planes?



World War I

B. Naval Warfare

Naval operations were carried out primarily in the North Atlantic Ocean and in the North Sea. At the start of the war, Britain had decisive superiority in heavy battleships, which were the cornerstone of sea power at that time. But Germany eventually challenged British dominance of the seas with its submarine, or U-Boat, campaign.

The war at sea was mainly important economically. The Allies were concerned with keeping open the vital sea lanes by which ships transported supplies, war materials, and troops to Europe from the United States and other overseas sources. In 1914 Britain implemented a sea blockade of Germany to prevent the delivery of imports such as food and war materials. The same year, Germany began using submarines to disrupt Allied seaborne traffic and prevent supplies from reaching Britain. In 1915 Germany instituted a submarine blockade around Britain. From February 1915 to September 1915 and again in 1917, Germany used unrestricted submarine warfare, sinking ships without any warning. Germany's use of unrestricted submarine warfare angered the Allies and resulted in the United States entering the war.

C. Aerial Warfare

Airplanes were first used in large numbers for military purposes during World War I. At the start of the war, airplanes and other aircraft were generally used for reconnaissance and for observing and adjusting artillery fire. Both the Allies and the Central Powers made extensive use of small tethered balloons for observing stationary battlefronts, of dirigible balloons for scouting at sea, and of airplanes for scouting coastal waters. Later, airplanes specially equipped for combat came into wide use on the western front. Both sides also employed airplanes carrying machine guns and light bombs to attack enemy ground forces. Shore-based naval aircraft capable of landing on water proved useful in antisubmarine warfare.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 8:44:02 PM   
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In 1912, Hibernia hosted trials in naval aviation with the temporary addition of a runway to her foredeck, and the first launch of an aircraft from a vessel underway was achieved from her in early May. Later in 1912, after her experiment with aviation was completed, she and her sister ships formed the 3rd Battle Squadron. The squadron was assigned to the Grand Fleet at the beginning of World War I, and served on the Northern Patrol. In 1915 she supported the Dardanelles Campaign and provided cover for the evacuation from the Gallipoli Peninsula. On returning to the United Kingdom she was again attached to the Grand Fleet before being transferred to Nore Command in May 1916, finishing the war as an accommodation ship. She was decommissioned in 1919 and scrapped in 1922.
HMS Hibernia was laid down at Devonport Dockyard on 6 January 1904, launched on 17 June 1905, and completed in December 1906. She was the last of the eight King Edward VII-class battleships to be completed.


As of yet, have not found any WW1 cruisers with airplanes.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/7/2013 8:48:22 PM   
kirk23


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Germany had none, Germany only used Zeppelins for naval Recon in the North sea / English Channel & the Baltic mostly from Cuxhaven.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/7/2013 8:52:46 PM >


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RE: The Sub War - 10/8/2013 9:59:41 PM   
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quote:

Hydrophone


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search

A hydrophone
Not to be confused with hydraulophone, a musical instrument.

A hydrophone (Greek "hydro" = "water" and "phone" = "sound") is a microphone designed to be used underwater for recording or listening to underwater sound. Most hydrophones are based on a piezoelectric transducer that generates electricity when subjected to a pressure change. Such piezoelectric materials, or transducers can convert a sound signal into an electrical signal since sound is a pressure wave. Some transducers can also serve as a projector, but not all have this capability, and may be destroyed if used in such a manner.

A hydrophone can "listen" to sound in air, but will be less sensitive due to its design as having a good acoustic impedance match to water, which is a denser substance than air. Likewise, a microphone can be buried in the ground, or immersed in water if it is put in a waterproof container, but will give similarly poor performance due to the similarly bad acoustic impedance match.

History[edit]

The earliest widely used design was the Fessenden oscillator, an electrodynamically driven clamped-edge circular plate transducer (not actually an oscillator) operating at 500, 1000, and later 3000 Hz. It was originally marketed as an underwater telegraph, rather than as sonar, but was later very successful, its Canadian inventor awarded the "Scientific American Magazine Gold Medal of Safety" in 1929 from the American Museum of Safety, an organization for ship captains;[1] some were still in use during World War II.

Ernest Rutherford, in England, led pioneer research in hydrophones using piezoelectric devices, and his only patent was for a hydrophone device. The acoustic impedance of piezoelectric materials facilitated their use as underwater transducers. The piezoelectric hydrophone was used late in World War I, by convoy escorts detecting U-boats, greatly impacting the effectiveness of submarines.[citation needed]

From late in World War I until the introduction of active sonar, hydrophones were the sole method for submarines to detect targets while submerged, and remain useful today.


This has to do with the CTGR naval Hydrophone tech.
What the above quote does not say; Is the area mass or distance, that they cover. Is it in miles or feet?

My arguement would be to increase sub detection in the area (hexes) around vessels with this tech.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/9/2013 12:01:20 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

I have doubled the submarines search radius, from 2 to 4, in an effort to help them seek out CONVOYS ! Since a Submarine unit, is supposed to represents several submarines, I have increased there search area.





Not to be a poop! Should not that surface ships get the same viewing advantage as subs? Patch 1.20 had surface ships with a 3 hex veiwing range, but was reduced to 2 in the 1.30 patch.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/9/2013 6:47:47 AM   
kirk23


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I have increased Cruiser search area to 3, and my new Destroyer units to 4 same as Submarines.

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RE: The Sub War - 10/13/2013 4:24:28 AM   
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Subs are too expensive and too worthless to do jack... RAISE their power, they smashed whole merchant fleets! Then make a HUGE diplomatic smash to involve America for when they do that! : )

1 sub should take out about 25%-35% of a convoy... as a Cruiser is more cost effective if you actually wanted a Navy Tactic..Still not viable

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RE: The Sub War - 10/13/2013 1:12:20 PM   
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The cost effective value of Submarines is an easy fix, just make them cheaper to built,less manpower,and build quicker.

While the opposite should be true of the Cruiser, make these more costly, requiring more manpower,and taking longer to build, all of which is historical. Another thing about sinking Convoys, it was not that it would eventually see the USA joining the war, but Germany built Submarines to starve Britain & France out the war. Any way if Germany has more Submarines, What does it matter if the USA joins the war, all you have to do is sink the Troopships, that bring the USA forces to Europe.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 10/13/2013 1:14:34 PM >


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RE: The Sub War - 1/10/2014 11:24:53 PM   
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Does anyone ever build any ships after the game starts? Cost too much and take so long it seems. But then again I'm only couple years in to my first game.

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RE: The Sub War - 1/11/2014 8:30:59 AM   
Orm


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I've been building ships in more than half of the games that I played.

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RE: The Sub War - 1/12/2014 1:00:20 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I've been building ships in more than half of the games that I played.


To help with the sub war in game, I have just completed the full integration off Destroyers into the game, they come with new art & full text description, these are now your main anti-Submarine threat.

NB : AT THIS TIME THEY HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN OFFICIAL GO AHEAD TO BE INCLUDED AS A NEW BUILD PRODUCTION UNIT.






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RE: The Sub War - 1/12/2014 1:10:39 PM   
kirk23


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Destroyers as they appear in game.




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RE: The Sub War - 1/12/2014 1:20:38 PM   
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Looks good to me.

Tim

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RE: The Sub War - 1/12/2014 1:27:36 PM   
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Be aware that any changes you do in text and additions also need to get translated to German end French, so please pass me on any text additions or changes asap please.

Cheers,

Tim

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