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RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic?

 
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RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 3:52:23 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12015
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

A couple of people need to chill out a bit. I have been playing Adsoul for a few months now and he is a very engaging and gallant opponent. He obviously loves the game and is only hampered by his inperfect use of the english language. Not everyone is a native speaker....

He just raises a few issues with the game and states he is curious about what other people think could be improved...





Well then I apologize if I've offended or misjudged him. When a person comes across as "less than pleasant" on an issue I give him the benefit of the doubt of knowing what he is talking about. Of course these "issues" have been discussed to ad nauseum in other threads , and are generally critical without helpful intent. Again , if I've been wrong , I apologize.

_____________________________

"Don't hold yourself up as an example of what community members should aspire to. You have a long history of rude behavior, and you overract to the slightest provocation."
Amoral


(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 31
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 3:53:18 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12015
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleike


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

Adsoul, this is a GAME. NOT a simulation. .....



Well. I don't agree on this point. This is a pacific theatre ww2 war simulation. Maybe not the best but still a simulation.

Every simulation can be played like a game.

If you look at the database this is a simulation! If you look at every ship, company, armour detail this is a simulation.

If you look at the map with roads cities and terrain this is a simulation.

If you look at the rules in the manual these are simulation efforts (maybe quite always simplified).

If you look at the add-on development of the community (dababes mods for example) they address always simulation, not gaming.

Only simplified rules in some instances due to the complexity and to the dimension of the subject can be exchanged with game rules.

For me a game is something different from WitpAE, something not so tight linked to reality.



Good enough. We'll simply have to agree to disagree.

_____________________________

"Don't hold yourself up as an example of what community members should aspire to. You have a long history of rude behavior, and you overract to the slightest provocation."
Amoral


(in reply to littleike)
Post #: 32
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 3:55:12 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12015
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

A couple of people need to chill out a bit. I have been playing Adsoul for a few months now and he is a very engaging and gallant opponent. He obviously loves the game and is only hampered by his inperfect use of the english language. Not everyone is a native speaker....

He just raises a few issues with the game and states he is curious about what other people think could be improved...




No kidding. Alas though the kids that inhabit this forum cannot take negative criticism of any kind probably because this game represents a large portion of their life I guess. Thats why I stopped posting commentary long ago and keep questions simple.
"A WITCH...A WITCH...BURN HIM!!"

Everyone just have a ding-dang-doodely good day!



Obviously you took seriously what was spoken in fun. Once again we need a "sarcasm smiley".

_____________________________

"Don't hold yourself up as an example of what community members should aspire to. You have a long history of rude behavior, and you overract to the slightest provocation."
Amoral


(in reply to Zigurat666)
Post #: 33
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 3:55:35 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12015
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: adsoul64

Many thanks for your advice DivePac88. Rest assured I know very well what to do with it.


Thicken your skin my friend. Anyone who has ever come to this forum with any measure whatsoever of criticism, no matter how constructtive, quicky finds himself pounced upon by the forum trolls who worship the gorund trod by the designers. It was only a matter of time before they crawled out of the woodwork to arrived in your thread.

-1

_____________________________

"Don't hold yourself up as an example of what community members should aspire to. You have a long history of rude behavior, and you overract to the slightest provocation."
Amoral


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 34
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 3:55:53 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12015
Joined: 3/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

+1

-2

_____________________________

"Don't hold yourself up as an example of what community members should aspire to. You have a long history of rude behavior, and you overract to the slightest provocation."
Amoral


(in reply to Zigurat666)
Post #: 35
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 4:47:54 PM   
Zigurat666


Posts: 218
Joined: 9/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleike


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666


No kidding. Alas though the kids that inhabit this forum cannot take negative criticism of any kind probably because this game represents a large portion of their life I guess. Thats why I stopped posting commentary long ago and keep questions simple.
"A WITCH...A WITCH...BURN HIM!!"




Ok now that you gave us your sentence from the high of the skies
close the clouds and return to your olympic residence.

Honestly i have not seen any troll here till your apparition.





lol...I rest my case

(in reply to littleike)
Post #: 36
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 7:23:05 PM   
Treetop64


Posts: 722
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: 519 Redwood City, CA - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Devs have always been very responsible to CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. That is, when you tell that there is a problem, produce a data to validate your point and propose a solution.

Posts like "game sucks because of xxxxx" are not that and are treated with scorn they deserve.



^^ This ^^



_____________________________



"Junk is something you've kept for years and throw away three weeks before you need it"

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 37
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 7:30:51 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 14865
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: Twin Cities, MN
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Anyone who has ever come to this forum with any measure whatsoever of criticism, no matter how constructtive, quicky finds himself pounced upon by the forum trolls who worship the gorund trod by the designers.


What a ridiculuous overstatement. 4 universal qualifiers in the first sentence alone. "Any"? "All"? "Ever"? "Whatsoever"? Sounds like someone else needs to thicken their skin a bit if they think this the case.

_____________________________


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 38
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 7:54:20 PM   
Frank


Posts: 1667
Joined: 9/1/2000
From: Bayern
Status: offline
Now gentlemen, please, be kind to each other.

Behave like men, shake hands, get to the bar and have some drinks. Then come back and discuss in a civilized and friendly way.It is so much better for the heart ... .

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If you like what I said love me,if you dislike what I say ignore me!

"Extra Bavaria non est vita! Et sic est vita non est ita!"


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Post #: 39
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/10/2013 8:19:56 PM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3114
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: adsoul64

Many thanks for your advice DivePac88. Rest assured I know very well what to do with it.


Thicken your skin my friend. Anyone who has ever come to this forum with any measure whatsoever of criticism, no matter how constructtive, quicky finds himself pounced upon by the forum trolls who worship the gorund trod by the designers. It was only a matter of time before they crawled out of the woodwork to arrived in your thread.


What Planet have you come from, and what drug are on, this is worse than Keeping Up with the Kardashians.

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 40
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 12:21:16 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 3148
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline
Thanks ever so much for the entertainment.

I do so thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit.

Got much of a chip on your shoulders guys?

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 41
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 2:07:36 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12015
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Thanks ever so much for the entertainment.

I do so thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit.

Got much of a chip on your shoulders guys?



Nice. Who has the chip? The people who react and defend what they belive? Or the guy who confesses that he "thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit"? I'm not sure , but that sounds remarkably like the defination I find for "Internet troll". Careful Hans, that is very close to admitting your a troll. Which violates Matrix's rules for the forum. You might want to consider editing your last post. And think very carefully before your next one.

_____________________________

"Don't hold yourself up as an example of what community members should aspire to. You have a long history of rude behavior, and you overract to the slightest provocation."
Amoral


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 42
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 3:04:05 PM   
Zigurat666


Posts: 218
Joined: 9/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Thanks ever so much for the entertainment.

I do so thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit.

Got much of a chip on your shoulders guys?



Nice. Who has the chip? The people who react and defend what they belive? Or the guy who confesses that he "thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit"? I'm not sure , but that sounds remarkably like the defination I find for "Internet troll". Careful Hans, that is very close to admitting your a troll. Which violates Matrix's rules for the forum. You might want to consider editing your last post. And think very carefully before your next one.



Hoo boy...you are losin' it

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 43
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 3:45:38 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12015
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Thanks ever so much for the entertainment.

I do so thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit.

Got much of a chip on your shoulders guys?



Nice. Who has the chip? The people who react and defend what they belive? Or the guy who confesses that he "thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit"? I'm not sure , but that sounds remarkably like the defination I find for "Internet troll". Careful Hans, that is very close to admitting your a troll. Which violates Matrix's rules for the forum. You might want to consider editing your last post. And think very carefully before your next one.



Hoo boy...you are losin' it



Exactly what am I losing Zig? My temper? Hardly. My mind? I'll let my wife,freinds,family and doctor make that judgement , but thanks. So exactly what am I losing? One thing I am not going to do is make a personal attack. Are/have you?

_____________________________

"Don't hold yourself up as an example of what community members should aspire to. You have a long history of rude behavior, and you overract to the slightest provocation."
Amoral


(in reply to Zigurat666)
Post #: 44
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 3:46:32 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10228
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

I wouldn't speak of "realism". This is a game, and it is not real:
- you don't get shot at, or cause anyone to be



Exactly.

Why is AE not "realistic"? Because we don't get in our aircraft carriers and bombers and head out to the pacific to kill each other! And good thing too! We don't want AE to be "realistic" !!!

Some say AE is not a simulation but that it is a game. Actually, we should call it a simulation game. AE is both.

So what is a simulation (I make them for a living) ? This is a piece of software (or not - you can have a simulation without software) which models some aspects of reality. But a simulation is NOT reality (by definition) ... that is why it is called a simulation.

Simulations have purposes. I have created simulations in my day job. These model certain aspects of semi-conductor equipment, most importantly throughput. There is a version of this simulator that our sales guys can set up and use in minuites in response to customer questions. It is about 97% accurate (in predicting throughput).
We have another version of this simulator that engineering uses to make design change decisions, it is about 99.9% accurate.

So the accuracy of a simulator should be aligned with its purpose. Accuracy can be very high, or not so high. And the PURPOSE of the simulator drives whether the simulator meets its requirements for accuracy. For our semi-conductor tool simulators, we have two because the engineering version takes hours to set up and run, whereas the sales version takes minutes to set up and run. Both of these simulators meet the need they were designed to meet, even though they do not have the same average accuracy. So, the accuracy of a simulator is not 100% and cannot be (by definition).

So what is the purpose of the AE simulator (simulation game) ? To entertain its customers and provide income for its owners. To date, it seems to be accomplishing its purposes (or we wouldn't be here talking about it).

Could it be more accurate? Of course! But at what cost? We could hire an "army of experts" and pay them millions of $$ USD and we would add one or two NINES ... but we will never reach 100%.
The only way to reach 100% is to get a lot of boats and planes and go out in the Ocean and get to it. And we certainly can't afford that!
One more Nine would cost about one million to the number of nines you want power (exponential). So if we are 97% now at $100 USD (or whatever the price is today), would you pay $1000 USD for 99% ? And $10,000 for 99.9 % The military pays those amounts - and they do not get perfection!

_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 45
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 3:47:44 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 3148
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: St. Petersburg, Florida, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Thanks ever so much for the entertainment.

I do so thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit.

Got much of a chip on your shoulders guys?



Nice. Who has the chip? The people who react and defend what they belive? Or the guy who confesses that he "thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit"? I'm not sure , but that sounds remarkably like the defination I find for "Internet troll". Careful Hans, that is very close to admitting your a troll. Which violates Matrix's rules for the forum. You might want to consider editing your last post. And think very carefully before your next one.


Thanks for the friendly advice. As you can probably tell from my post count I am a long time forumite. I have never been suspended or banned.

I do enjoy irking the irksome and doing so does indeed require walking a very fine line. I strive to hold up a mirror to those who seem oblivious at times that they ARE the trolls they often accuse others of being. Unfortunately people don't like having mirrors held to them to show them what they truly look like and oft times react by throwing things at the mirror. I do indeed have a very thick skin as a result of dodging so many projectiles so often.

The first few posts in this thread involved a civil discousre involving Chickenboy and the OP and then you and a few others arrived with your "if you don't love and worship the game as we do stop playing it and stop polluting OUR forum with your denigration of the game and its designers" (paraphrased of course). Which is nothing BUT pure trolling and totally counterproductive to any further civil discourse.

Enough throwing stones at each other. How about detente?



_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 46
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 4:23:19 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12015
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE ? "Cloud Coo-coo land"
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Thanks ever so much for the entertainment.

I do so thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit.

Got much of a chip on your shoulders guys?



Nice. Who has the chip? The people who react and defend what they belive? Or the guy who confesses that he "thoroughly enjoy yanking chains for the entertaining reactions they elicit"? I'm not sure , but that sounds remarkably like the defination I find for "Internet troll". Careful Hans, that is very close to admitting your a troll. Which violates Matrix's rules for the forum. You might want to consider editing your last post. And think very carefully before your next one.


Thanks for the friendly advice. As you can probably tell from my post count I am a long time forumite. I have never been suspended or banned.

I do enjoy irking the irksome and doing so does indeed require walking a very fine line. I strive to hold up a mirror to those who seem oblivious at times that they ARE the trolls they often accuse others of being. Unfortunately people don't like having mirrors held to them to show them what they truly look like and oft times react by throwing things at the mirror. I do indeed have a very thick skin as a result of dodging so many projectiles so often.

The first few posts in this thread involved a civil discousre involving Chickenboy and the OP and then you and a few others arrived with your "if you don't love and worship the game as we do stop playing it and stop polluting OUR forum with your denigration of the game and its designers" (paraphrased of course). Which is nothing BUT pure trolling and totally counterproductive to any further civil discourse.

Enough throwing stones at each other. How about detente?





You remind me of a bully I knew when I was a child. He bash another child in the head then call for a truce, having gotten his licks in before he got hit back.

Yeah I know you been around here a long time. Long enough to at least twice be on my "green button list".

I also know that the longest and most experinced forum contributor occassional gets hot enough under the collar that a friendly reminder is not amiss. Apparently you don't feel you needed one. Fair enough.

My comments were meant to be in good spirit and humor (no I really don't worship the "One True Thread". Actually I'm a protestant ). And people really should not read previous post on this subject. After all , you can never have enough posts on the subject of "Why is this game so screwed up?) We can have a whole section on nothing but "Zero vs. Wildcat", "Sunk vs. Scuttled" , and "Who was the bad guy in this war , the next war , or in general?". There is just SO much to be learned and gained from such discourse".

Detente? No thanks. If I'm as you imply , a troll I wouldn't honor it. And if I'm innocent , as I belive, then I shouldn't need it.

_____________________________

"Don't hold yourself up as an example of what community members should aspire to. You have a long history of rude behavior, and you overract to the slightest provocation."
Amoral


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 47
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 5:56:34 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10228
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: San Jose, CA
Status: offline
Alright, alright, I'm not the MOD any more - but I can call 911 if needed. You guys cut it out. If the general discussion forum can have a civil debate on GUN CONTROL without resorting to personal attacks, I think we here should be able to discuss AE realism (for the 918th time) without us losing it. So please get yourselves back under control

Thanks,

Joe


_____________________________

AE Project Lead

(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 48
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 6:17:35 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1174
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Some say AE is not a simulation but that it is a game. Actually, we should call it a simulation game. AE is both.



EXACTLY! My big objection to the "It's only a game." statement is that it is generally used to excuse some one-sided piece of nonsense that has shown up in the code giving one side or the other an unfair advantage. Perfect example is the naval bombing accuracy of early war Japanese torpedo bombers. The ratings they have were to simulate their excellence in the torpedo attack role. The "unintended consequence" was that they carry laser-guided bombs at 9,000 feet in the level bombing role. Or does anyone really believe they can score 70% hits on manuevering DD's from almost 2 miles up? But I've seen it defended because "It's only a game.".

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 49
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 6:45:18 PM   
Symon


Posts: 273
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline
Thought long and hard about this, but it really had to be said.

Is the game borked? Of course it is. In many ways, shapes, and forms. And the designers are the first to acknowledge this. But just like Robert Bork, the package is wrapped up in the perceptions, expectations, and agendas of people

The designers are continuously looking at things and pass tweaks to michaelm, in background. You never know, because they never say ‘hey look what I did’. They also listen and talk to the community about problems, regardless of the source.

Castor Troy is considered by a few to be a troll, considered by many to be caustic, but get over his presentation style and he has valuable input. He certainly does NOT worship in the temple of designer omnipotence, but he was instrumental in bringing about many fundamental changes in the game. But these happened in background because he was willing to accept the limitations imposed on the designers by the game system, and work with them to get it done inside the box.

The designers are not perfect. The game is not perfect. Things can be done, but it takes care, attention, and especially interest (manpower, materials, and $$ to fund both).

Saying the game is borked has become a regular, and frankly boring, mantra. If the game is borked somewhere, it’s good to cite book, chapter, verse, about how it sucks. Then, others will respond with their own book, chapter, verse, about how it doesn’t suck. This is healthy. This is useful. Occasionally, it leads to something interesting (cf, brother Castor). So having ‘game is borked’ posts sometimes comes in handy.

Gratutious urinating on designers, like that ‘they couldn’t pass a computer class’ post, is right out. How many of you would put up with that if it were directed at you? Well we feel the same way. So, speaking as a designer, I want no temple, I trust in this particular community to eventually get it righteous, even if the start is ‘xxx is borked’.

What I will not put up with, as a designer, is gratuitous personal urination, by people who think that because designers don’t have a login, it’s ok to personally urinate on them, because they won’t respond. Wrong. You wouldn't put up with it, why should we?

[ed] btw, I see some responders on this thread that only seem to show up whenever there is a controversy. Never seem to play, or contribute, just make pronunciamento. Everybody knows who they are, I'm just curious why long-time forum dwellers actually think it's useful to engage these people. Newbys I can understand, but shoot, some of you have been here since PacWar and ought to know better. Just MHO

Ciao. JWE


< Message edited by Symon -- 1/11/2013 7:16:02 PM >

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 50
RE: Why WitP-AE is not realistic? - 1/11/2013 10:46:38 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 7041
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
I think this thread has run its course. Time to lock it. Behave y'all!

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Symon)
Post #: 51
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