Matrix Games

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The question is different everywhere. At Manila, for example, LI is 100 per day and there is no HI. Not enough to matter in a siege. But take a look at Chungking. Right now all Japan has to do is camp a stack in the hex and that core city is reduced to organic "slash supply" of 400 per day. But full HI/LI gives 540 more per day so long as stockpiles are present, and that depends a bit on Japan closing all hex sides, a much harder tactical problem. Nearly 1000 supply per day is a whole different situation for a siege, and I believe the original devs made the slash supply level be 400 based on an assumption that HI/LI would be available.

I reiterate: Japanese players playing a stacking game also need to be very careful what they wish for. Leaving the situation as it is now will result in potentially severely curtailed HI banks in the late war. For the Allies it is far, far easier to camp on a hex and use the terrain bonus to defend than it is to fully capture the HI-producing city and face losses of devices and most importantly time.

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ORIGINAL: Theages

What about only shutting off production, when a minimum number of enemy troops is present (AV check) and / or a certain attacker - defender AV ratio is reached (eg. more than 1:1)?

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ORIGINAL: Andav
As for late game HI issues, if the Japanese are short on HI in the late game it is probably more a failure to plan in 1942 then the Allies camping HI centers in 1944. For the Japanese, we all know HI will be reduced to nothing over time and have to plan for that. It is just part of what we do.

Wa

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ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I've always played under the assumption that if I occupied an enemy hex containing both HI and LI that both industries would still produce providing there were enough resources stockpiled to allow production to continue, but any inherent source of fuel, oil or resources would stop. This simulated a siege or production just eventually dwindling due to a lack of raw materials.

When I learned the other day that this was no longer the case, that if I simply contest an enemy owned hex that all production stops regardless of stockpiles, I was quite surprised and felt this could have a major effect on gameplay. I totally agree with Bull, be careful what you ask for and I see a scenario where simply contesting these types of bases by the Allies could bring Japan to her knees earlier than thought possible.

I liked it as it was before the patch change. HI and LI should be able to produce as long as stockpiles of fuel/oil/resources exist at the base, but that stockpile can't be added to from any source either internally/externally once the base is contested.

Just my thoughts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav

Don't get me wrong here. I am in favor of leaving LI (and HI for that matter) running when occupied and there are resources present. It probably helps the JFB a lot more then the AFB. I am just not opposed to turning it off when occupied like it has been for a while now.

I really think this is not a huge deal.

You've never played an Allied player who pushes the engine.

If by the middle of 1943,

Fall of 1942 in China for sure. Chinese units break up into tiny pieces real good, and they ressurect for free. Also, the code as I understand it now doens't require the unit have any AV. An HQ with twelve squads could shut down Changsha until you can eject it. Or an AA unit.

the Allies are in a position to camp my HI centers in places where I am counting on still having HI centers (The Home Islands, Manchuria, most of China, even Singapore and the DEI), I probably have much larger problems.

You're probably good for 1942 and half of 1943 in these areas unless your opponent has a strong anti-HR strategy.

If by the middle of 1943 the Allies have denied my ability to use HI centers in India or Oz by camping them

Much earlier. Both have excellent railroads. More to the point, unless auto-vic is the goal there woudl be no reason at all to go to these regions. India only makes sense if the HI points can be banked and sent home. Without them it's a huge risk and expense for really nothing. JFBs woudl be restricted to much more historical geographies. Woudl that lead to more quitting early out of boredom?

, I can probably live with that. This is assuming I have decided to let all my units die in place just to have HI run. In most cases, this will not happen when I have the opportunity to maneuver.

As the Allies I can force your maneuvering into tighter funnels by forcing you to have reaction forces stationed all over the place. Remember, I can shut down ALL production, including fuel and resources, by sticking a base force alongside a base force. Or an AA unit alongside a base force. Battle of the midgets. And I don't have to stay forever. I can kill by the death of a thousand cuts. Take away 25% of the HI-days across the map for 1943 and what does that do to aircraft production in 1945? Can you meet pilot taxes in 1944?

The biggest place where the Allies benefit is in China. This is easy to counter with bombing the centers so they are not usable.

No, the biggest places the Allies benefit are Singapore anbd Palembang, two bases the Japanese need and need fast. So JFBs would love for the code to remain unchanged on that basis. But they'd hate it long-term now that everyone knows how it works.

Paratroopers? Ok. Since I pretty much expect HI centers to be bombed when in 4E range (read transport range),

Transports have more range than most early war bombers. Paratroops also don't have to drop on the HI base. A dot base works fine. They can walk.

if I decide the hex is important enough I will have suitable AA in the hex as well as CAP to defend this high value target. More than likely, I will have some garrison as well since pretty much every high value city needs some sort of garrison. I think paratroopers would find it very difficult to attack and live for more than one day if they even survive the initial shock attack.

See above.

If I have left it defenseless enough that paratroopers can stay there then that is my lack of planning. Again, it is using tactics to prevent bad things from happening.

Wa

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andav

Don't get me wrong here. I am in favor of leaving LI (and HI for that matter) running when occupied and there are resources present. It probably helps the JFB a lot more then the AFB. I am just not opposed to turning it off when occupied like it has been for a while now.

I really think this is not a huge deal.

You've never played an Allied player who pushes the engine.

If by the middle of 1943,

Fall of 1942 in China for sure. Chinese units break up into tiny pieces real good, and they ressurect for free. Also, the code as I understand it now doens't require the unit have any AV. An HQ with twelve squads could shut down Changsha until you can eject it. Or an AA unit.

the Allies are in a position to camp my HI centers in places where I am counting on still having HI centers (The Home Islands, Manchuria, most of China, even Singapore and the DEI), I probably have much larger problems.

You're probably good for 1942 and half of 1943 in these areas unless your opponent has a strong anti-HR strategy.

If by the middle of 1943 the Allies have denied my ability to use HI centers in India or Oz by camping them

Much earlier. Both have excellent railroads. More to the point, unless auto-vic is the goal there woudl be no reason at all to go to these regions. India only makes sense if the HI points can be banked and sent home. Without them it's a huge risk and expense for really nothing. JFBs woudl be restricted to much more historical geographies. Woudl that lead to more quitting early out of boredom?

, I can probably live with that. This is assuming I have decided to let all my units die in place just to have HI run. In most cases, this will not happen when I have the opportunity to maneuver.

As the Allies I can force your maneuvering into tighter funnels by forcing you to have reaction forces stationed all over the place. Remember, I can shut down ALL production, including fuel and resources, by sticking a base force alongside a base force. Or an AA unit alongside a base force. Battle of the midgets. And I don't have to stay forever. I can kill by the death of a thousand cuts. Take away 25% of the HI-days across the map for 1943 and what does that do to aircraft production in 1945? Can you meet pilot taxes in 1944?

The biggest place where the Allies benefit is in China. This is easy to counter with bombing the centers so they are not usable.

No, the biggest places the Allies benefit are Singapore anbd Palembang, two bases the Japanese need and need fast. So JFBs would love for the code to remain unchanged on that basis. But they'd hate it long-term now that everyone knows how it works.

Paratroopers? Ok. Since I pretty much expect HI centers to be bombed when in 4E range (read transport range),

Transports have more range than most early war bombers. Paratroops also don't have to drop on the HI base. A dot base works fine. They can walk.

if I decide the hex is important enough I will have suitable AA in the hex as well as CAP to defend this high value target. More than likely, I will have some garrison as well since pretty much every high value city needs some sort of garrison. I think paratroopers would find it very difficult to attack and live for more than one day if they even survive the initial shock attack.

See above.

If I have left it defenseless enough that paratroopers can stay there then that is my lack of planning. Again, it is using tactics to prevent bad things from happening.

Wa

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ORIGINAL: witpqs
Moose, I disagree that you can do these things against a good player. You have to get the units there for them to have any effect. That is the glaring weakness in your plan to use tiny units and base forces. If you bring a lot of force to the party that is different, and of course you can only do so much of that. Needing reaction forces - yeah, that's closer to reality anyway.

As far as HQ units go, they won't even enter an enemy controlled hex without units that have AV going with them. That rule might extend to any unit with 0 AV, but for sure it coves HQ units.

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ORIGINAL: witpqs


The HQ thing is well known but I have no idea if it is in the manual or elsewhere.

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ORIGINAL: Skyros

Instead of all or nothing, just cut all production by 50%when enemy av is in the hex. This will reflect the actual and psychological impact of enemy forces in the area. The economy in that hex will be impacted by workers abandoning the factories to get away from the war. There were a number of cases were this hampered the war effort. I recently read that dock workers fleeing Rangoon severely impacted the use of the port.

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ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Theages

What about only shutting off production, when a minimum number of enemy troops is present (AV check) and / or a certain attacker - defender AV ratio is reached (eg. more than 1:1)?

Anything, in theory, could be coded, but this proposal doesn't have a lot of logical consistency. If industry is inside the city, why would having more troops outside the city stop it from producing? You also get into satellites issues. For example, this gives the defender free intel on the AV strength of units sieging the city. The defender just has to watch for the switch to flip on or off. Also, a lot of units don't have any AV, but are still enemy units which flip hexsides. Finally, bombing defending troops could have the effect of stopping civilian workers from doing their jobs; flipping the switch the other way through bombing. There is already a way to stop civilians from producing--City attacks on the industry. There's no logical reason killing soldiers should stop steelworkers.