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WASP flamer - 1/7/2013 9:50:48 AM   
RockinHarry


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Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		anybody yet made some for the games ESTAB? Could simply add some flamethrower to a carrier and research other details necessary, but if someone already has game unit data at hand, it would save me time, that I need elsewhere.

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RE: WASP flamer - 1/8/2013 4:25:54 PM   
RockinHarry


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Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		So here´s my estimation of a canadian WASP Mark IIC

Some things are likely incorrect and this basically is a copy of a unversial carrier, with some "adaptions". I also copied the Crocodiles Flamer weapon and reduced ranges to 72m (80 yards) max / 50m min. If somebody sees obvious faults or has better data at hand, please let me know!

Note: Shell weight of 100, is yet an experimental value, since I figured the flamers actally have little effect. ;)

[image][URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/waspm.jpg/][/URL][/image]

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Post #: 2
RE: WASP flamer - 1/8/2013 4:54:25 PM   
wodin


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From: England
Status: online 		Looks great, wouldn't a FT tank have some effect on armour aswell though? I'm sure it could wipe out APC etc.

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Post #: 3
RE: WASP flamer - 1/8/2013 5:31:03 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Looks great, wouldn't a FT tank have some effect on armour aswell though? I'm sure it could wipe out APC etc.


Theorethically, probably yes, but I can´t imagine they were ever used that way. Also for game purposes it´s rather undesirable, as I´m already struggling to get them used for burning german pants properly.

Could be the 80 yrds range is bits to high. I remember from the Breskens pocket reads, that at the initial attack over that canal, the WASP´s range was just sufficient enough to reach the germans at the opposite side. Got to reread...

I do not expect wonders from ALL flamers in the game, but as said, I do not see that much effect yet. Historically, whenever the Crocs and Wasps appeared near german lines, the germans start to **** pants and not just the average grenadier. So I´d expect at least a noticable morale drop in the game...

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Post #: 4
RE: WASP flamer - 1/8/2013 9:44:27 PM   
Arjuna


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From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		RockinHarry,

At present we don't have any special moraloe effect built in for flame tanks IIRC. I agree it would be good to add. I'll have to l;ook into how best to implement that.

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Post #: 5
RE: WASP flamer - 1/8/2013 9:57:43 PM   
wodin


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From: England
Status: online 		A sh1t your pants factor...cool:)

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Post #: 6
RE: WASP flamer - 1/8/2013 10:20:01 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

A sh1t your pants factor...cool:)




After reading many accounts and reports from both sides, one definitely can say, the flamer tanks were a feared weapon, particularly the Crocs. They can stay out of Panzerfaust range and are frontally almost invulnerable. No wonder german infantry felt very much helpless, when these beasts get near, announcing a horrible death and wounds!

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Post #: 7
RE: WASP flamer - 1/8/2013 10:26:27 PM   
RockinHarry


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Status: offline 		Just figured, that ingame the flamer tanks do not show having any APerFP value in data tab, while in mission editor they do!

Dave, could you please check up the data from the screenshots above?

Or is it how flamers work and just the data is not shown in the game?

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Post #: 8
RE: WASP flamer - 1/9/2013 12:11:53 AM   
Arjuna


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From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		I cannot check this out without you providing me an updated estab file and a scenario file that uses the flamer estab.

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Post #: 9
RE: WASP flamer - 1/9/2013 12:53:27 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

I cannot check this out without you providing me an updated estab file and a scenario file that uses the flamer estab.


I´ve not quite finished testing my setups yet, so I don´t like to bother you with sending save files and stuff yet.

Just want to go sure, that the basic parameters for flame units/weapons are correct, as to be seen in my screenshot above.

These are (as taken from original BFTB ESTAB, excl. shell weight)

Vehicle

Type: Other-AFV (correct?)
Open topped: Yes (does that cause any problems?)

Weapon:

type: other (correct?)
primary role: anti personnel
calibre: 0.0 (correct?)
MV: 0.0 (correct?)
Ammo - Load: 30 (x single flame shots?)
Min/Max range: (any caps or limits?)
shell weight: ?? (what is this based on)

Unit:

Force Type: Armour
Sub Force Type: Flame Thrower-AFV
Combat class: line-support
Target class: Hard
Move Class: Track

So is these base parameters correct and should yield me properly functioning Flamethrower AFV in the game? Anything else worth to know about setting up and using Flamethrower AFV in the game?

Thanks

< Message edited by RockinHarry -- 1/9/2013 12:54:24 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: WASP flamer - 1/9/2013 4:51:25 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

Just figured, that ingame the flamer tanks do not show having any APerFP value in data tab, while in mission editor they do!



Ok....Must be sort of "data display feature" ingame. So do weapon systems (like the flamers), which just have a single range/accuracy band below 100m and effective range in the 30-80m range, show as having AperFP = 0?

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Post #: 11
RE: WASP flamer - 1/9/2013 10:54:04 PM   
Arjuna


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Status: offline 		If you open the BFTB estab file and go to Weapons and then select the FLamethrower (Flammpanzer 38(t)) you should see exactly what you need. Just duplicate this and change the range from 60 to 80. Note that it uses a shell weight of 15.

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Post #: 12
RE: WASP flamer - 1/10/2013 11:29:44 PM   
RockinHarry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

If you open the BFTB estab file and go to Weapons and then select the FLamethrower (Flammpanzer 38(t)) you should see exactly what you need. Just duplicate this and change the range from 60 to 80. Note that it uses a shell weight of 15.


Interesting! Didn´t think of going above 1.0000x, to "stretch" an accuracy rating, for calculating effective range curve trigger fire.

I made the edits you suggested, but still can´t get the Wasps or Crocs work right. I´ve yet to make more detailed tests, before I provide any files for bug hunting purposes, but so far I still believe, there must be an issue for those weapon systems which:

1. Is the only weapon system for a particular unit
2. Max range is below 100m

Oddly enough, I see the inf flamethrower used a lot (part of german combat engineers i.e), while Flamethrower vehicles seldomly get a shot off.

My WASP unit creation so far is well liked by the germans, since it makes a nice practice target for Panzerfausts and the like.

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Post #: 13
RE: WASP flamer - 1/10/2013 11:57:03 PM   
Arjuna


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From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Give me some files to step through and we can work out what is happening.

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Post #: 14
RE: WASP flamer - 1/11/2013 2:56:47 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2947
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Test battle not yet ready, but some further observations from playing Veritable prototype:

I´ve finally seen my WASP´s engaging, but they did in some unexpected ways. They first moved straight well into the enemy german infantry footprints, almost to the center of it and then get a number of shots off. With little noticable effects though.

What I´d formerly expected to see, is that the WASP´s get near the edge of an enemies footprint, stop and engage at close range to it. That did not happen. Instead they stopped upon close contact (both footprints almost touching at 50-100m distance) and then do nothing. Did not take long and they were picked off by german Panzerfaust at around 50m.

I´ve now extended the Ronson´s max range to 150m (with almost Nil accuracy) to see, if that triggers shooting outside enemies footprint and not well within.

I already did that for (inf) flamer (Nill accuracy at >= 100m) and they appear to be used as I´d ecpect.

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Post #: 15
RE: WASP flamer - 1/11/2013 11:21:09 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 16504
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From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		What I suspect is happening is that the unit moves further in one minute than its max range. A mot unit moving tactically will cover 200 to 250m per minute. So it's quite possible that it ends up being say 150m out from the unit and cannot fire so it moves and ends up right in the middle of the unit. When enemy are detected nearby the moving unit will reduce its speed but maybe it doesn't detect them or it doesn't reduce it far enough. We may need to add some code to reduce its move distance to say its range less 20m. Most vehicles will have a weapon that shoot a lot further. So it's probably never come up before.

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Post #: 16
RE: WASP flamer - 1/12/2013 4:23:37 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2947
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

What I suspect is happening is that the unit moves further in one minute than its max range. A mot unit moving tactically will cover 200 to 250m per minute. So it's quite possible that it ends up being say 150m out from the unit and cannot fire so it moves and ends up right in the middle of the unit. When enemy are detected nearby the moving unit will reduce its speed but maybe it doesn't detect them or it doesn't reduce it far enough. We may need to add some code to reduce its move distance to say its range less 20m. Most vehicles will have a weapon that shoot a lot further. So it's probably never come up before.


Thanks! I´ll take that into consideration, while doing further testing. Will temporarily switch to Crocodiles, who move at walking pace.

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Post #: 17
RE: WASP flamer - 1/12/2013 9:45:13 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

Posts: 130
Joined: 1/4/2006
Status: offline 		For those WWII Marine Corps news reels I've seen over the years, particularly Iwo Jima and Okinawa where flame tanks were used against hard targets, the American tactic for a flame tank was to come to a stop and then spray the bunker with the flame thrower.

There may be something here to describe the US flame tank use in the European Theater:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/





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Post #: 18
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