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China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 12:52:25 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Hi guys,

i'm seeking for some advices here. In our game, QBall and I are encountering a new problem and we both don't know what to do.

Here's the situation:

we're playing DBB scenario 30 that has the stacking limits map (which is great!!).

Japan has conquered most of China, having conquered every city in the central plains except chungking.
Chungking has a stacking limit of 160,000 men...and the auto-respawning system of the destroyed chinese units creates a problem really hard to solve: here's how CRSutton summerized it in my AAR (in an english surely better than mine)

"Greyjoy,

You might want to have a conversation with Qball about this but I see a real major issues coming up for the Allies in China. The issue is the new stacking limits combined with the old stock solution of rebuilding all killed Chinese units and plopping them down in Chungking. In stock this was not a bad thing but if you surround Chungking and then allow defeated Chinese units to resurrect there, with the stacking limit it might actually work against Qball and cause him to lose Chungking very fast as an over stacked Chungking will actually eat up supplies as such a rate that his situation there will become desperate. "

What should we do?

Post #: 1
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 1:21:17 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2779
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
Perhaps ask Michaelm to patch it and make the coming back to life of Chinese units optional (like rebuying destroyed units at 0 PP). It's the only thing I can think off other then Q-ball surrendering China or you taking Chungking..



_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 2
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 1:38:15 PM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 11731
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
It (latest beta 1112+ ) only automatically rebuilds 1/3rd of Chinese squad devices, rather than the whole unit.

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Post #: 3
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 3:25:27 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 22224
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
Here is my comment on the issue (which appeared in different format in GreyJoy's AAR:

- If Chungking is surrounded, then only supply generated in Chungking will get there (I doubt that any air drops will make it in).

- Even without re-spawned units, Chungking will already be greatly over stacked. If it is not greatly over stacked, then the IJA will be able to take it without too much fuss.

- Air attacks on Chungking will be bigger and bigger as the number of other targets available diminish, resulting in more and more supply hits.

- I don't think any reasonable defensive force in Chungking in that situation would have any supply anyway after
-- 1) the significant over stacking required to defend the place,
-- 2) the aerial bombardment eating up supply, and 3) the supply blockade.

- It might just be that more and more units getting packed in via re-spawn is the only hope Chungking has of holding!

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Post #: 4
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 4:16:34 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9315
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Here is my comment on the issue (which appeared in different format in GreyJoy's AAR:

- If Chungking is surrounded, then only supply generated in Chungking will get there (I doubt that any air drops will make it in).

- Even without re-spawned units, Chungking will already be greatly over stacked. If it is not greatly over stacked, then the IJA will be able to take it without too much fuss.

- Air attacks on Chungking will be bigger and bigger as the number of other targets available diminish, resulting in more and more supply hits.

- I don't think any reasonable defensive force in Chungking in that situation would have any supply anyway after
-- 1) the significant over stacking required to defend the place,
-- 2) the aerial bombardment eating up supply, and 3) the supply blockade.

- It might just be that more and more units getting packed in via re-spawn is the only hope Chungking has of holding!



Well yes, in stock. But my understanding that in Da Babes (I have yet to play it) that there are severe penalties for over stacking. If one of those is a severe supply drain penalty such as with over stacked atolls in the stock game then the way I see it the more Chinese units that re-emerge in the city, then the quicker the city will fall due to a faster rate of supply exhaustion. Let's face it. A determined Japanese attack will take the city but since China is a tough nut for the Allies to play. This would make it even tougher.

I don't expect Michael to make changes since his work is on the stock game and not on the mod. But perhaps the Babes team can look at it. I just raised it as a "potential" problem. That is all.

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Post #: 5
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 4:58:26 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 22224
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Here is my comment on the issue (which appeared in different format in GreyJoy's AAR:

- If Chungking is surrounded, then only supply generated in Chungking will get there (I doubt that any air drops will make it in).

- Even without re-spawned units, Chungking will already be greatly over stacked. If it is not greatly over stacked, then the IJA will be able to take it without too much fuss.

- Air attacks on Chungking will be bigger and bigger as the number of other targets available diminish, resulting in more and more supply hits.

- I don't think any reasonable defensive force in Chungking in that situation would have any supply anyway after
-- 1) the significant over stacking required to defend the place,
-- 2) the aerial bombardment eating up supply, and 3) the supply blockade.

- It might just be that more and more units getting packed in via re-spawn is the only hope Chungking has of holding!



Well yes, in stock. But my understanding that in Da Babes (I have yet to play it) that there are severe penalties for over stacking. If one of those is a severe supply drain penalty such as with over stacked atolls in the stock game then the way I see it the more Chinese units that re-emerge in the city, then the quicker the city will fall due to a faster rate of supply exhaustion. Let's face it. A determined Japanese attack will take the city but since China is a tough nut for the Allies to play. This would make it even tougher.

I don't expect Michael to make changes since his work is on the stock game and not on the mod. But perhaps the Babes team can look at it. I just raised it as a "potential" problem. That is all.

Re-read my comment. I am talking about with optional stacking limits. The only penalty for over stacking is a supply fine deducted at the end of each turn. If the IJA has surrounded Chungking, the only way to defend it is going to be to over stack on a massive scale. If Chungking is over stacked on a massive scale, there will be ZERO supply due to the over stacking penalty. Therefore additional units re-spawning there will not make the supply situation any worse, because zero supply is already as low as it can go.

If Chungking is NOT massively over stacked by the Allies, then the IJA will capture it in short order and the whole point is moot because the re-spawned units will not have a place to come back to. After all, Chungking is not going to get surrounded by a small IJA force. If Chungking does get surrounded that will only happen because disaster has befallen the Chinese theater.

If Chungking is massively over stacked, all units will fight at 25% of available strength. More units re-spawning means more units fighting at 25% of available strength, which is better than the units not being there and not fighting at all.

I know you identified the issue and raised it as a potential problem, which is great. This is my analysis of it.

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Post #: 6
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 5:41:38 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2779
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
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Overstacking also makes sure troops there are disrupted. It is not just supply issues..

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"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 7
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 6:38:33 PM   
Puhis


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From: Finland
Status: offline
Isn't the disruption penalty very small, something like 1-5 points?

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Post #: 8
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 7:31:21 PM   
Symon


Posts: 1928
Joined: 11/24/2012
From: De Eye-lands, Mon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi guys,

i'm seeking for some advices here. In our game, QBall and I are encountering a new problem and we both don't know what to do.

Here's the situation:

we're playing DBB scenario 30 that has the stacking limits map (which is great!!).

Japan has conquered most of China, having conquered every city in the central plains except chungking.
Chungking has a stacking limit of 160,000 men...and the auto-respawning system of the destroyed chinese units creates a problem really hard to solve: here's how CRSutton summerized it in my AAR (in an english surely better than mine)

"Greyjoy,

You might want to have a conversation with Qball about this but I see a real major issues coming up for the Allies in China. The issue is the new stacking limits combined with the old stock solution of rebuilding all killed Chinese units and plopping them down in Chungking. In stock this was not a bad thing but if you surround Chungking and then allow defeated Chinese units to resurrect there, with the stacking limit it might actually work against Qball and cause him to lose Chungking very fast as an over stacked Chungking will actually eat up supplies as such a rate that his situation there will become desperate. "

What should we do?

Well, that one's a bitch. The stacking limits are what they are, and didn't consider the game 'regen' stuff. Oh, well.

To my mind, if Japan gets so far as to whack China and surround Chungking, there is no point in respawning Chinese units. Chungking, itself, is not capable of populating the plethora of Chinese regen units, so if they appear and subsequently die from lack of supply, so be it.

Ciao. John

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 9
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 8:57:35 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11075
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi guys,

i'm seeking for some advices here. In our game, QBall and I are encountering a new problem and we both don't know what to do.

Here's the situation:

we're playing DBB scenario 30 that has the stacking limits map (which is great!!).

Japan has conquered most of China, having conquered every city in the central plains except chungking.
Chungking has a stacking limit of 160,000 men...and the auto-respawning system of the destroyed chinese units creates a problem really hard to solve: here's how CRSutton summerized it in my AAR (in an english surely better than mine)

"Greyjoy,

You might want to have a conversation with Qball about this but I see a real major issues coming up for the Allies in China. The issue is the new stacking limits combined with the old stock solution of rebuilding all killed Chinese units and plopping them down in Chungking. In stock this was not a bad thing but if you surround Chungking and then allow defeated Chinese units to resurrect there, with the stacking limit it might actually work against Qball and cause him to lose Chungking very fast as an over stacked Chungking will actually eat up supplies as such a rate that his situation there will become desperate. "

What should we do?




I'm not following your game that closely, so it might be too late to do this, but to my mind the "solution" is not to allow Chungking to be surrounded, or delay it as long as possible. When the magic 1/3 regen LCUs hit Chungking and you have stacking limits in force, send them into the surounding bush, due west first most likely. Make it hard for Japan to encircle the city and cut off all supply flows. If the units are in the bush they have a chance, however slight, to draw supply from somewhere not Chungking and perhaps draw some repalcements. But even if they don't they hold the entering hexside open while not counting in the urban stacking limit. As Chungking stacked units die you can rotate the bush units in.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/5/2013 8:58:46 PM >


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Post #: 10
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/5/2013 9:03:40 PM   
KenchiSulla


Posts: 2779
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Isn't the disruption penalty very small, something like 1-5 points?


I thought it depended on how overstacked the hex was? Can be much higher then teh 1-5 points?

_____________________________

AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivo

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 11
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/6/2013 12:04:00 AM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi guys,

i'm seeking for some advices here. In our game, QBall and I are encountering a new problem and we both don't know what to do.

Here's the situation:

we're playing DBB scenario 30 that has the stacking limits map (which is great!!).

Japan has conquered most of China, having conquered every city in the central plains except chungking.
Chungking has a stacking limit of 160,000 men...and the auto-respawning system of the destroyed chinese units creates a problem really hard to solve: here's how CRSutton summerized it in my AAR (in an english surely better than mine)

"Greyjoy,

You might want to have a conversation with Qball about this but I see a real major issues coming up for the Allies in China. The issue is the new stacking limits combined with the old stock solution of rebuilding all killed Chinese units and plopping them down in Chungking. In stock this was not a bad thing but if you surround Chungking and then allow defeated Chinese units to resurrect there, with the stacking limit it might actually work against Qball and cause him to lose Chungking very fast as an over stacked Chungking will actually eat up supplies as such a rate that his situation there will become desperate. "

What should we do?




I'm not following your game that closely, so it might be too late to do this, but to my mind the "solution" is not to allow Chungking to be surrounded, or delay it as long as possible. When the magic 1/3 regen LCUs hit Chungking and you have stacking limits in force, send them into the surounding bush, due west first most likely. Make it hard for Japan to encircle the city and cut off all supply flows. If the units are in the bush they have a chance, however slight, to draw supply from somewhere not Chungking and perhaps draw some repalcements. But even if they don't they hold the entering hexside open while not counting in the urban stacking limit. As Chungking stacked units die you can rotate the bush units in.



That's what QBall is doing so far. The problem i see is that as long as he keep on having respawning issues, the chinese corps, no matter if in the city itself or in the surrounding bushes, will drain supplies...so the city will always be at 0 supplies with no hope of holding a single sip of them (not even with the auto-generated supplies).

Thanks guys for your thoughts. As always wise and competent!

Love this community

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 12
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/6/2013 12:12:41 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11075
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi guys,

i'm seeking for some advices here. In our game, QBall and I are encountering a new problem and we both don't know what to do.

Here's the situation:

we're playing DBB scenario 30 that has the stacking limits map (which is great!!).

Japan has conquered most of China, having conquered every city in the central plains except chungking.
Chungking has a stacking limit of 160,000 men...and the auto-respawning system of the destroyed chinese units creates a problem really hard to solve: here's how CRSutton summerized it in my AAR (in an english surely better than mine)

"Greyjoy,

You might want to have a conversation with Qball about this but I see a real major issues coming up for the Allies in China. The issue is the new stacking limits combined with the old stock solution of rebuilding all killed Chinese units and plopping them down in Chungking. In stock this was not a bad thing but if you surround Chungking and then allow defeated Chinese units to resurrect there, with the stacking limit it might actually work against Qball and cause him to lose Chungking very fast as an over stacked Chungking will actually eat up supplies as such a rate that his situation there will become desperate. "

What should we do?




I'm not following your game that closely, so it might be too late to do this, but to my mind the "solution" is not to allow Chungking to be surrounded, or delay it as long as possible. When the magic 1/3 regen LCUs hit Chungking and you have stacking limits in force, send them into the surounding bush, due west first most likely. Make it hard for Japan to encircle the city and cut off all supply flows. If the units are in the bush they have a chance, however slight, to draw supply from somewhere not Chungking and perhaps draw some repalcements. But even if they don't they hold the entering hexside open while not counting in the urban stacking limit. As Chungking stacked units die you can rotate the bush units in.



That's what QBall is doing so far. The problem i see is that as long as he keep on having respawning issues, the chinese corps, no matter if in the city itself or in the surrounding bushes, will drain supplies...so the city will always be at 0 supplies with no hope of holding a single sip of them (not even with the auto-generated supplies).

Thanks guys for your thoughts. As always wise and competent!

Love this community


True, some CK supplies will flow. Stockpiling won't help. He could move the ejected ones more thana hex away and not only hold more hexsides but diminish the flow. But unless he wanted to move them so far away they couldn't help defend the city some supply will flow out.

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The Moose

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Post #: 13
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/6/2013 12:13:45 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 22224
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Overstacking also makes sure troops there are disrupted. It is not just supply issues..

No, the developers confirmed that the only effect of over stacking is a supply penalty.

You will of course see all the effects of lack of supply, such as slow recovery from disruption. But, as I noted, in a "Chungking surrounded" situation, Chungking will either have zero supply anyway or be conquered for lack of adequate defenders.

_____________________________


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Post #: 14
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/6/2013 12:17:03 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 22224
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

Hi guys,

i'm seeking for some advices here. In our game, QBall and I are encountering a new problem and we both don't know what to do.

Here's the situation:

we're playing DBB scenario 30 that has the stacking limits map (which is great!!).

Japan has conquered most of China, having conquered every city in the central plains except chungking.
Chungking has a stacking limit of 160,000 men...and the auto-respawning system of the destroyed chinese units creates a problem really hard to solve: here's how CRSutton summerized it in my AAR (in an english surely better than mine)

"Greyjoy,

You might want to have a conversation with Qball about this but I see a real major issues coming up for the Allies in China. The issue is the new stacking limits combined with the old stock solution of rebuilding all killed Chinese units and plopping them down in Chungking. In stock this was not a bad thing but if you surround Chungking and then allow defeated Chinese units to resurrect there, with the stacking limit it might actually work against Qball and cause him to lose Chungking very fast as an over stacked Chungking will actually eat up supplies as such a rate that his situation there will become desperate. "

What should we do?




I'm not following your game that closely, so it might be too late to do this, but to my mind the "solution" is not to allow Chungking to be surrounded, or delay it as long as possible. When the magic 1/3 regen LCUs hit Chungking and you have stacking limits in force, send them into the surounding bush, due west first most likely. Make it hard for Japan to encircle the city and cut off all supply flows. If the units are in the bush they have a chance, however slight, to draw supply from somewhere not Chungking and perhaps draw some repalcements. But even if they don't they hold the entering hexside open while not counting in the urban stacking limit. As Chungking stacked units die you can rotate the bush units in.



That's what QBall is doing so far. The problem i see is that as long as he keep on having respawning issues, the chinese corps, no matter if in the city itself or in the surrounding bushes, will drain supplies...so the city will always be at 0 supplies with no hope of holding a single sip of them (not even with the auto-generated supplies).

Thanks guys for your thoughts. As always wise and competent!

Love this community

What does it matter if the city warehouses have supplies? Consider that
1) The airfield is certainly being kept closed by the IJA, so no supplies can be used up flying planes anyway.
2) With the airfield continually damaged, no fortifications can be built anyway.
3) If there are a trickle of supplies distributed to troops, that is the only productive use for the supplies (see 1 and 2 above).

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Post #: 15
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/6/2013 7:23:21 AM   
Alfred

 

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I'm fully with witpqs. I just don't see why there is any fuss being made.

Stacking limits apply to both sides Completely starving Chinese units in Chungking still have some Assault Value which will require the Japanese to respond in kind. Just how quickly do you think it would take Japan to come up against its own 160k troop limit in an endeavour to capture Chungking, particularly if forts are present when the siege begins. Without its own sizeable investing force being present, even starving Chinese units could go onto the offensive to eject the interlopers.

Alfred

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 16
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/6/2013 2:37:20 PM   
PaxMondo


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I'm thinking this is going to be interesting to watch play out.



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Post #: 17
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/6/2013 3:30:42 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 22224
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I'm thinking this is going to be interesting to watch play out.



Several of us have games where wither the IJ has broken through to Chungking or is threatening to do so...

(Of course in the case of my game I'm just luring Andav into an elaborate trap that will destroy the IJA with pitchforks and slingshots! )

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Post #: 18
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/6/2013 4:33:18 PM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
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Well in my stock game I had a sizable force defending Chungking, it eventually was defeated but the supply generated by the city itself helped my stack hold out for a very long time even with repeated bombings and attacks. But with an over stacking penalty the units would have quickly gone to 0 supply all the time and it is my experience that when units reach 0 supply it is all but over very quickly.

A determined and experienced Japanese player will have Chungking sooner or later. The aim of good Allied play is to make it as later as possible. The best Allied strategy is to defend Chungking with a reasonable force but to bug out to the west with the stronger force and hold the mountains as best as possible until the Indian army can link up or conduct the long march to India in a worse case scenario.

However, my point is that a carefully planned defense of Chungking can become unhinged when a large stack of regenerated units show up there in the middle of a seige-creating a net drain of supply, thus hastening the fall of the city instead of helping it.

In stock, good Japanese play means not surrounding and eliminating units until Chungking falls. In GJs game, the opposite may be true. There are of course, counters to this but I think that it merited pointing out as many Allied players could fall into this trap.

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Post #: 19
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/6/2013 7:34:56 PM   
GreyJoy


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Thank you very much guys!!

I hope QBall will jump in and add his thoughts about this situation

Thanks again!

GJ

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 20
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/7/2013 12:41:18 AM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
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My inclination would be to leave it without any house rules. As it happens, I am able to move troops out of the city to the south, and I'm doing so basically only to be able to stack them somewhere else. We just need some space to camp!

The supply situation is hopeless anyway, so not sure it makes a huge difference. Disruption may become a problem, who knows.

I would leave it

Stacking limits make China interesting, that's for sure

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Post #: 21
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/7/2013 2:00:21 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I'm thinking this is going to be interesting to watch play out.



Several of us have games where wither the IJ has broken through to Chungking or is threatening to do so...

(Of course in the case of my game I'm just luring Andav into an elaborate trap that will destroy the IJA with pitchforks and slingshots! )

I know. A lot of really good AAR's right now. It is going to be very interesting to watch the results.

_____________________________

Pax

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Post #: 22
RE: China problem- map with stacking limit (DBB mod) - 1/7/2013 10:09:26 AM   
fcharton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton
In stock, good Japanese play means not surrounding and eliminating units until Chungking falls.


I doubt this can be done. To take Chungking, you need two things : get there (obviously) and keep your supply lines open. You won't achieve the latter with a lot of KMT units roaming free behind the front. And if you push them before you, you will find them in Chungking anyway.

In my game, I tried to be prudent with "needless elimination", managed to trap all the Changsha garrison, and left big stacks of depleted defenders in the mountains between Shaanxi and Sichuan. Yet many units were eliminated in the process, and we now have 120 units in Chungking, half of them respawned (for some reason, every unit seems to respawn, not just infantry)...

But it doesn't really matter. Respawned units eat most of the supplies anyway, and once the forts are down things get bad very fast for the KMT. It is just that, in stock, after all of China is defeated, you still need several months to finish Chungking off (not sure how many, I think I will manage four in my game, but then, I had underestimated this part of the war).

With stacking limits, you probably need more time to break through, but once Chungking is surrounded, it might fall faster. I say might, because I wonder how the stacking limits mix with respawn rate: units destroyed in Chungking will respawn a month later, and as stacking rules seem to make sieges last longer, it is possible that at some point, odds ratio never change, because the guys you destroy this month are back the next one.

Overall, I don't think stacking limits change the situation in China. Right now, a commited Japanese player will take all of it, with or without stacking (but it is a lot of work and investment), but that might be because many AFB don't care much for China, and no one has thought hard enough about the counter.

Oh, and about historicity, I'm a bit split about the benefits of stacking. Eliminating the mega-stacks and the big battles at the gate of Mordor is certainly a good thing, but that continuous front line over the mountains and deserts, which just happens once you have stacking, looks very strange (the War of Resistance was a pile of local wars).

Francois


(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 23
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