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Using Cards - 1/2/2013 4:08:41 PM   
jcrohio

 

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I am going to ask some probably dumb questions but here goes

1. I am struggling with how cards work - sometimes I select a card to use and nothing happens, sometimes I pay for the use and other times I dont - is there something I am missing on their use

2. Do I need to have a unit selected prior to using the card

3. Can they be used on groups and if so does a specific unit have to be selected

4. Does using Persistent APs effect the use of cards

Tahnks for any help
Jack
Post #: 1
RE: Using Cards - 1/2/2013 7:51:48 PM   
junk2drive


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There should be text on the top middle of your screen to help with doing stuff. Usually after I select a card, it says to choose a unit to apply it to. Also a white arrow pointing down to place a mine or select a unit.

Not sure about the group thing.

< Message edited by junk2drive -- 1/2/2013 7:53:14 PM >


_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Using Cards - 1/2/2013 9:26:13 PM   
jcrohio

 

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Thanks - once I started reading the d--n screen things went better - stupid on my part - I am really trying to get a feel for the Group thing and thats what most of my issues were with - I think I am seeing a difference between Persistent and Classic as far as how Groups go with Cards but am not sure -

Again thanks
Jack

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RE: Using Cards - 1/3/2013 12:41:41 AM   
VR_IronFist


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Cards can be used on Groups in either Persistent AP mode or Classic AP mode. They should work the same since the rules governing the groups are the same. The big thing is what type of card you are playing and what type of Group action you are going to be doing.

Some examples:

1. If doing a Group Move, it doesn't matter what unit in the group is first since you can move the entire groups once off a card -> You have three units selected with two having red dashed circles and on a yellow dashed circle (the primary unit at this time). You play a command action card. You move the primary unit one hex, then you select another unit to make primary and move it, finally you select the third unit and move it.

2. If doing a Group Fire you need to select a fire leader (the unit that is going to do the shooting) and all other units have to be adjacent to it or in the same hex. I select the fire leader last when holding the shift key down to it has the yellow dashed highlight. You then play a command action card. You can now shoot with the fire leader and any other unit fulling fire support rules can add 1 AV to the fire leader's FP.

3. Rally works like #1 above.

4. You can Group Hasty Defense too.

There are lots of combinations but the cards should work the same for a Group as an individual unit.

What I tend to do is select all the units in a Group and have an active one already chosen if needed for the action and then play the card.

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Post #: 4
RE: Using Cards - 1/3/2013 3:55:11 PM   
jcrohio

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VR_IronFist

Cards can be used on Groups in either Persistent AP mode or Classic AP mode. They should work the same since the rules governing the groups are the same. The big thing is what type of card you are playing and what type of Group action you are going to be doing.

Some examples:

1. If doing a Group Move, it doesn't matter what unit in the group is first since you can move the entire groups once off a card -> You have three units selected with two having red dashed circles and on a yellow dashed circle (the primary unit at this time). You play a command action card. You move the primary unit one hex, then you select another unit to make primary and move it, finally you select the third unit and move it.

This what I have mostly focused on Group Move using a Command Action - in Persistent AP mode I cannot get this to work - I group them and play the card and only the unit I play the card on gets to move - in Classic APs I can get this to work by 1) Select CAPs Action 2) Select the Group 3) then use the Command Action - but even using this sequence it only works some of the time

2. If doing a Group Fire you need to select a fire leader (the unit that is going to do the shooting) and all other units have to be adjacent to it or in the same hex. I select the fire leader last when holding the shift key down to it has the yellow dashed highlight. You then play a command action card. You can now shoot with the fire leader and any other unit fulling fire support rules can add 1 AV to the fire leader's FP.

This has actually worked for me - no problems doing Goup Fire

3. Rally works like #1 above.

Rally Attempt works fine with Groups but cannot get Auto Rally to work - again even with the group selected the only unit that rallies is the one clicked on

4. You can Group Hasty Defense too.

Can't get this to work with groups - again even with the group selected the only unit that build the Hasty Defense is the one clicked on

There are lots of combinations but the cards should work the same for a Group as an individual unit.

What I tend to do is select all the units in a Group and have an active one already chosen if needed for the action and then play the card.

This would make the most sense but is not working for me as described above



Lastly is this - in the AWB board game rules version two there is the following statement - "Group Action - The card may be played as part of a group action (9.1) if paid for with CAPs" - not sure if this has anything to do with Groups and Cards or not

Again Thanks
Jack

(in reply to VR_IronFist)
Post #: 5
RE: Using Cards - 1/3/2013 4:40:17 PM   
VR_IronFist


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It does. Command (CAPS) Actions, i.e. those using only CAPS and Card Actions, such as the Command Action card, both allow you to take a Group Action without spending any APs from the active Group or (and this is most important in my opinion) without changing the state of any unit involved in that Command Action.

For example you activate a Rifle unit, move it two hexes over two turns until it rests next to a fresh LMG34 in the woods. On your next turn (your third turn), you group the Rifle + LMG34 using CAPS only to do a Group Fire. The LMG34 is designated the fire leader so it only take 2 APs to fire with the Rifle adding +1 AV to the attack (this assuming all conditions are me). After the Group fire is completed, the Rifle can continue as the Activated unit using their remaining APs while the LMG is still "fresh," able to Activate on a subsequent turn. All for 2 CAPs.

In the example if you had move your Rifle squad next to the LMG34 and did a Shared Activation, i.e. added it to the Rifle's Activation and its AP pool, then the LMG34 would have been linked to it until the pool was exhausted and marked spend with the Rifle. You would have denied the LMG its own Activation and 7 APs; much more inefficient.

Now using Persistent APs, the above will still work but the repercussions of using CAPs versus APs are gone. In my opinion much less tactical and strategy oriented than Classic (which I find more chess-like), hence why I prefer Classic AP but will play either.

You can get the smoothness people mention in Classic APs but need to understand and us Group Actions to do so. CAPS also become even more important and not just for boosting attack rolls.

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RE: Using Cards - 1/3/2013 5:10:39 PM   
jcrohio

 

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VR Iron Fist

Thanks for the answer - that is a deeper use of CAPs then I had considered - I too am starting to appreciate the Classic system

Did you glance at my responses to your four examples 2 posts up? Curious if they made any sense to you

Jack

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Post #: 7
RE: Using Cards - 1/3/2013 6:49:39 PM   
VR_IronFist


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Hi jcrohio - yes it did. That's what prompted my response. I wanted to elaborate on what you said. Basically the idea in CoH, specifically the Classic AP mode (board game system) is you can have an individual activation, a shared activation (very inefficient by itself), and Group Actions (usually a subset of Shared Activations but not always).

They key (in my mind) to all of the above is that Command (CAPS) Actions and Card Actions can be used before, during, or after any of them without changing the state of what you were doing beforehand. That's where the incredible flexibility comes from especially when used with Group Actions.

Because you do not change the state of a unit or group by clicking off them in Persistent APs, Group Actions by CAPS or Cards become less significant although still possible. Under Classic APs, how you order your turns during a round is huge since it allows you to working in unexpected CAP and Card usage, especially with Group Actions. It makes their efficient use a game changer.

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Post #: 8
RE: Using Cards - 1/3/2013 7:49:09 PM   
jcrohio

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VR_IronFist

Hi jcrohio - yes it did. That's what prompted my response. I wanted to elaborate on what you said. Basically the idea in CoH, specifically the Classic AP mode (board game system) is you can have an individual activation, a shared activation (very inefficient by itself), and Group Actions (usually a subset of Shared Activations but not always).

They key (in my mind) to all of the above is that Command (CAPS) Actions and Card Actions can be used before, during, or after any of them without changing the state of what you were doing beforehand. That's where the incredible flexibility comes from especially when used with Group Actions.

Because you do not change the state of a unit or group by clicking off them in Persistent APs, Group Actions by CAPS or Cards become less significant although still possible. Under Classic APs, how you order your turns during a round is huge since it allows you to working in unexpected CAP and Card usage, especially with Group Actions. It makes their efficient use a game changer.


I am starting to see the power of what you are saying but am having trouble with how to do it in the computer game

Let me phrase my problem a different way - I just went to the "The Gap" scenario set both sides to human and then tried somethings - should I be able to do the following:

1. Should I be able to take two spent units that are in consecutive hexes, group them, and use a Command Action Card (not CAPS) to let them both move one hex forward? - I feel I should and cannot in either Persistent or Classic

2. Should I be able to take two spent units that are in consecutive hexes, group them, and use a Command Action Card (not CAPS) to form a fire group? - I feel I should and cannot in either Persistent or Classic

Thanks
Jack

(in reply to VR_IronFist)
Post #: 9
RE: Using Cards - 1/3/2013 8:07:45 PM   
VR_IronFist


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The answers are:

1. Yes

2. Yes

Now I've never tried this hot-seat (the way you are playing) but I have done with against the AI and another human opponent so I'm not sure why you aren't unless it's something to do with hot-seat play.

What I would do to Group Fire for example, is select the supporting unit, hold the [shift] key down, left-click on the fire leader so that the fire leader is the unit with the yellow dashed circle. Then I would play the Command Action card and both should have the word "Special" on them. Then select the unit to fire at and you should see the cross-hairs with the percentage to hit. Fire at it. Then read the log below and you should see in the notes the "+1 Group Attack" to let you know it was applied. The units should still be spent.

I'm doing this from memory since I'm in work but what I typed above should be close.

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Post #: 10
RE: Using Cards - 1/3/2013 9:16:05 PM   
VR_IronFist


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I tested this out when I got home and it worked for me.

1. In Classic AP mode, you have to select Command (CAPS) Action button first, then play a Command Card, select the support unit, then hold [shift] and select the other unit (fire leader if firing otherwise it doesn't matter). I see blue hex lit where I can move the Group and if I mouse over the target unit I see the cross-hairs and can fire. When the next turn comes, I was back to my originally Activated unit and the Group I just used was still spent.

2. Persistent APs was even easier since you didn't need to use a Command (CAPS) Action. I selected the Group as above and played the card. I could also have had nothing selected and played the card and then chose. However if I had units selected that weren't the Group I wanted to use and played the card, it was played on them.

Does that help?

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RE: Using Cards - 1/4/2013 12:03:39 AM   
jcrohio

 

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OK - just tested myself again - did all Classic APs (will do Persistent later)

Here is what I found
1. If units are spent I could not get Group firing or moving to work - I selected the Command Action Button, played the Command Action card, grouped the units (or grouped the units first and then played the card - tried both) and if I fired received no fire support and if I moved only one unit could move

2. If units were not spent - group fire worked as you said - perfect - got the fire bonus and the fire cost no APs

3. If units were not spent - group move worked most of the time (not sure why sometimes it did not) but with the following quirk - it cost APs to do the move instead of a free move

Does this go with what you are seeing at all
Thanks
Jack

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Post #: 12
RE: Using Cards - 1/4/2013 12:20:22 AM   
jcrohio

 

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Reply to my own post above - just tested Persistent and the results were exactlt the same as above

1. Spent units I could not get to work
2. Unspent units - group fire worked
3. Unspent units - group move worked but cost APs

Jack

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Post #: 13
RE: Using Cards - 1/4/2013 1:22:48 AM   
VR_IronFist


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Just a question, are you using the latest release patch v1.14 or the beta patch, v1.15? I'm on the beta patch so I wanted to make sure I might be seeing different stuff because I have fixes you don't.

I attached a screen capture of how I did the Card Command Action. Here's me playing the card. You can see no unit selected and the two spent units.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 14
RE: Using Cards - 1/4/2013 1:24:06 AM   
VR_IronFist


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Here's me Group selecting the spent units after the card was played. You can see the actions listed in the log at the bottom.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 15
RE: Using Cards - 1/4/2013 1:25:37 AM   
VR_IronFist


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Here's the cross-hairs and the chance to hit so I can fire the group even though they are spent.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Using Cards - 1/4/2013 1:31:26 AM   
VR_IronFist


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Here's something wrong - the +1 AV from the support unit was not applied. Instead of needing a 7 or more to hit, which would have been correct (12-5=7=58%) we see 12-4=8=41% chance to hit, which is wrong. The log also shows the +1 not being applied. However the group was able to fire (just not correctly).

Jack since you can reproduce what you are seeing, I would open a thread in the Tech forum reporting it. At the least, the +1 needs to be fixed for Group Fire.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Using Cards - 1/4/2013 1:11:32 PM   
jcrohio

 

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I am using the beta 1.15 patch - should have stated that earlier - sorry

What happened to you above is what is happening to me - when units are spent group firing SEEMS to work but you do not get the fire group benefits

If you would have done exactly what you did above with unspent units then the results would have been what we expect - no APs used and the full benefit of the fire group - at least that is what I found

I found the same to be true of group moving - did you try that at all?

Jack

< Message edited by jcrohio -- 1/4/2013 9:02:33 PM >

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RE: Using Cards - 1/4/2013 8:25:40 PM   
VR_IronFist


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Hi Jack, sorry for the late reply but I only got to test this afternoon.

I am seeing what you are seeing with Group Moving too. It looks like we are on the same page across the board; independent confirmation.

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RE: Using Cards - 1/5/2013 3:55:32 AM   
jcrohio

 

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Thanks for the reply - sorry I am late - had to go shopping and take my wife to dinner

I am glad you are seeing it too - I see your name show up over at Board Game Geek - guy over there who is fairly active insinuates that group rules are still buggy

I hope these posts help the developers work out the kinks

Do you own the board game as well? How does it compare to the computer game? I downloaded the rules for version 2 and have been reading them as I play. There are some differences but I guess what is impressive is how much has been incorporated

Have you tried the online game? What is that like?

Thanks again
Jack

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Post #: 20
RE: Using Cards - 1/5/2013 4:34:01 AM   
VR_IronFist


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I have been posting on BGG recently, especially in the second edition forums. I agree re: helping the developers. Based on some email conversations I've had with one of them, they are getting them. I believe they have to wait until their break is over next week to begin working on what we've been finding.

I own Storms of Steel, Price of Honour, and the Second Edition of Awakening the Bear. I think the PC game compares very favorable. It's an excellent adaptation and I love that Western Civilization Software has gone the extra mile, sometimes at their cost, to implement the Classic APs and add the hi-res, big board maps. I think they are well on their way to having a truly great product since the PC version would be two games in one, i.e. the best of both worlds. I just hope it sold well over the Holidays with the 25% sale, and the upcoming Storms of Steel expansion sells well enough, to justify their continued support and new products. Oh my favorite thing with the PC game is it handling LOS and elevation - that is just great.

When you say version 2 of the rules, do you mean the rules from the Second Edition of Awakening the Bear? If not, those are the ones you should use as they are the latest and contain all the errata from previous versions mixed in so it's in the actual ruleset. I see the different version as follows:

First Edition rules = first edition AtB
Second Edition rules = Storms of Steel
Third Edition rules = second edition of AtB

The Price of Honour rules were different because the game was an expansion and the purpose of the rules was to put them all together in a non-programmed format, at the request of players. Hence why I don't consider them a separate version but a codified version of the Storm of Steel rules.

Eric [Babe] has said on many occasions the the PC game doesn't adhere to any single version because of the length of the PC game's development. However to test rules, you need to pick a version so I use the SE AtB and let him decide what to do with the reports.

I have played online a number of times. It's very fun and more challenging than playing against the AI. It goes pretty fast since both players are live (no PBEM) and are engaged because of the nature of the system. It's not as much fun as playing someone face-to-face with the board game, but then what PC game really is?

I do prefer the Classic AP rules because of reasons I've stated before but I will just as easily play Persistent APs if someone prefers. I do come from the board game so I'm biased to its implementation of the rules.

I'm just looking forward to when the PC game has down all the Classic AP & Persistent AP modes and we can just concentrate on playing it.

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RE: Using Cards - 1/5/2013 4:20:00 PM   
tsnouffer


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Hi guys. I'm helping Uwe with the AtB tournament. I've been following your thread closely. It sounds like, and I noticed, how lacking the group rules under 1.14 of the PC game were so I've been playing the 1.15 beta. Any idea if what you've noted before (using the screenshots above) is the extent of the problems with group actions under 1.15?

Cheers!

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RE: Using Cards - 1/5/2013 5:07:50 PM   
VR_IronFist


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Hi tsnouffer, thanks for helping organize the tournament. There are still a few bugs associated with Group Actions in v1.15 beta but it is much better than in v1.14; I mean there are significantly less issues. Between the threads on this forum and some reports I've emailed directly to Eric, he is aware of them.

If you are asking which version might be better for the tournament, since Group Actions are a hallmark of good CoH play, I think v1.15 is your best bet. My opinion only, of course.

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RE: Using Cards - 1/5/2013 6:06:42 PM   
tsnouffer


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Thanks for the feedback. I hear ya. I heard from Uwe and Eric too. We're going to run with the 1.15 beta. It is stable and seems to have fewer issues than 1.14 over all.

Cheers!

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Post #: 24
RE: Using Cards - 1/5/2013 6:49:46 PM   
fentum

 

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I am a fresh faced new player, but I fancy a crack at this.

OK, new but not so fresh faced.

How do I sign up?

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Post #: 25
RE: Using Cards - 1/5/2013 7:15:31 PM   
jcrohio

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VR_IronFist

I have been posting on BGG recently, especially in the second edition forums. I agree re: helping the developers. Based on some email conversations I've had with one of them, they are getting them. I believe they have to wait until their break is over next week to begin working on what we've been finding.

I own Storms of Steel, Price of Honour, and the Second Edition of Awakening the Bear. I think the PC game compares very favorable. It's an excellent adaptation and I love that Western Civilization Software has gone the extra mile, sometimes at their cost, to implement the Classic APs and add the hi-res, big board maps. I think they are well on their way to having a truly great product since the PC version would be two games in one, i.e. the best of both worlds. I just hope it sold well over the Holidays with the 25% sale, and the upcoming Storms of Steel expansion sells well enough, to justify their continued support and new products. Oh my favorite thing with the PC game is it handling LOS and elevation - that is just great.

I agree - I think they have done a great job with this - I stated earlier that though there are some things mising I am impressed with all they have managed to get into the computer game - I am also impressed the way they have responded to our requests and problems

When you say version 2 of the rules, do you mean the rules from the Second Edition of Awakening the Bear? If not, those are the ones you should use as they are the latest and contain all the errata from previous versions mixed in so it's in the actual ruleset. I see the different version as follows:

First Edition rules = first edition AtB
Second Edition rules = Storms of Steel
Third Edition rules = second edition of AtB

I am looking at the Third Edition rules = second edition of AtB - these are what I downloaded and then reading through them as I play - I am also compiling a list of things different between the two

The Price of Honour rules were different because the game was an expansion and the purpose of the rules was to put them all together in a non-programmed format, at the request of players. Hence why I don't consider them a separate version but a codified version of the Storm of Steel rules.

Eric [Babe] has said on many occasions the the PC game doesn't adhere to any single version because of the length of the PC game's development. However to test rules, you need to pick a version so I use the SE AtB and let him decide what to do with the reports.

See above - I also

I have played online a number of times. It's very fun and more challenging than playing against the AI. It goes pretty fast since both players are live (no PBEM) and are engaged because of the nature of the system. It's not as much fun as playing someone face-to-face with the board game, but then what PC game really is?

I do prefer the Classic AP rules because of reasons I've stated before but I will just as easily play Persistent APs if someone prefers. I do come from the board game so I'm biased to its implementation of the rules.

In my first go round with this game back in the summer I only played Persistent - then my job kicked in (I only work 6 months of the year but when I work I have no free time) and that was kinda the end of it - Picked it back up before Christmas and have really spent a lot of time with it - started playing Classic and agree with you - Like it better

I'm just looking forward to when the PC game has down all the Classic AP & Persistent AP modes and we can just concentrate on playing it.


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Post #: 26
RE: Using Cards - 1/5/2013 7:39:19 PM   
tsnouffer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fentum

I am a fresh faced new player, but I fancy a crack at this.

OK, new but not so fresh faced.

How do I sign up?


How do you sign up for the tournament?

Details here:;
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3242833

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Post #: 27
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