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USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3?

 
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Time of Fury >> USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? Page: [1]
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USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/1/2013 2:23:05 AM   
gwgardner

 

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Status: offline 		has there been a change in the USSR files for the Barbarossa Campaign?
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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/1/2013 7:43:04 AM   
doomtrader


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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/1/2013 7:03:33 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 2940
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		in my current multiplayer game with jlpowell, barbarossa campaign, the russkies are nerfed.He's in Moscow early september, and my russkies are at max 38% effectiveness. Impossible to recreate any kind of historical campaign.

I think the Russian morale hit at the start of Barbarossa is going on too long and/or is too excessive.

I thought it had changed because in my games with Chocilino we didn't see this.

looking at the soviet events file, I see events 389 and 390 which begin the revitilization of the Soviet will to fight after the initial shock. If I simply increase the probability that those events are triggered, then the Soviets should put up a better defense - I think. No?

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 1/1/2013 8:43:51 PM >

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/1/2013 10:13:55 PM   
JLPOWELL


Posts: 373
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Status: offline 		I agree we are looking at a significant play balance issue. I haven't played Barbarossa vrs a human before, and don't know what settings were in previous releases but I recall having played the AI and it was not nearly as easy to roll into the USSR. Gwgardner is pretty clearly a very competent player yet the USSR was pretty much roadkill in our game. For most of the game I if I could get to a unit I could kill it. I expect I could have traveled east faster if I had not been concerned the defender would cut off overextended units, looking back, from what I can see there was no possibly of that happening, I doubt 4 USSR armor corps could shift a single GE Armor division. Leningrad & Moscow were taken fairly easily along with the cities nearby & I don't see what could have been done differently on the defense to any effect.

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/2/2013 8:52:30 AM   
doomtrader


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Status: offline 		I'am not completely sure, but I think I haven't been touchnig those settings for quite long time.

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/4/2013 10:34:29 AM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

I'am not completely sure, but I think I haven't been touchnig those settings for quite long time.


Something is wrong with the settings for Russia's penalty hits for sure. In my just abandoned game under 1.02, the Germans attacked me in January 1941 and my units suffered the -30's% hit for all of 1941 and then in June of 41 the event fired again and some of my units were then at less than -100% for several weeks (I may have missed another firing of the event in between I guess). Eventually some units went up from -100's to the -60's and others were in the -30's so it looks like duplicate penalty events are firing for different times/reasons and the negative hits are stacking up.

My guess is the units that were built before Jan 41 had all 3 hits on them and were less than -100 the other units were probably built after one or two of the duplicate events fired, so had fewer stacks on them. This is all speculation of course, but whatever is going on it needs to be looked at for sure.

It did force me to invent a new strategy for defending Russia. Forget building good units, just spam tonnes of cheap tech level 1 divisions to force the Germans to use up all their movement points conducting attacks. It actually worked and they hadn't crossed the Dnepr by July 41 when I deleted that install and dumped the saves as well. Of course a human would have a field day but the AI took the time to chase everything down one at a time and never tried to make any big encirclements.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 1/4/2013 10:35:13 AM >

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/4/2013 10:56:46 AM   
doomtrader


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Status: offline 		I will take a look at this before next release

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/4/2013 5:41:38 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Status: offline 		there are two russian events 389 and 390 that seem to affect the recovery from the initial Soviet collapse. Those are the events I'm fiddling with to see if the recovery can proceed at a bit quicker rate after a shorter period of initial collapse.

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/4/2013 11:03:21 PM   
Jim D Burns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

I will take a look at this before next release


While you're in there, something else just popped up in my new Russian game you should take a look at. I was forced to conquer Rumania due to the event chain where they back down to a declaration of war by Russia not working properly (I demand territory, they refuse, I declare, they back down but war remains hot and Russia has to conquer them). This past turn in my game (October 40 I think might be November) France went Vichy, Italy then immediately declared war on Greece, then they pressured Rumania to join the axis.

Rumania went from 15 or so to 49, but Rumania no longer even exists, so how did Italy spend political points on pressuring it and get a result? I'm now worried that Italy and Germany will continue to pressure non-existent Rumania and it will somehow magically reconstitute as a nation and join the axis side. I'll let you know what happens, but both the Rumanian event chain and this issue need some attention.

Edit: I kept a backup file of the save the turn after Rumania was pressured in case you need it. This area of the forum won't accept compressed files so let me know who to send it to, or I can make a new post in tech support if you want me to and upload it there if you need it.

One last thing to note, take a look at the Finnish war territory swap if you can. A partisan unit appeared on the Murmansk rail line the turn before surrender in my game and it cut the rail line with ZOC and Finland was then allowed to keep the territory. Russia also got to keep territory that it had occupied further west of the historical border, so the surrender of territory part of the winter war isn't working as it should since territory by both sides not part of the historical agreement should be given back.


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 1/9/2013 6:20:08 PM >

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/7/2013 4:34:50 PM   
Omnius

 

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Status: offline 		Jim D Burns,
Don't let the AI control your minor allies. I also think there were some problems with version 1.02 as to how the event questions get answered by some AI-controlled countries, they lead to Romania getting into war with the USSR before allying with Germany. Worse yet is when it is allied with Germany and starts Barbarossa prematurely.

The 1.03 version is better. I found that when I played all countries manually I could choose the correct answers that followed history as far as Romania ceding territory to the USSR.

The biggest problem in 1.03 is that there still isn't an event to end the Soviet-Finnish war around the historical end of March 1940 turn. The Soviet AI is so pathetic attacking Finland that it tends to stay at war with Finland until Germany declares war on it. That falsely boosts the Soviet War Economy well beyond the historical level and some foolishly interpret that as the Soviet AI being good when it's exactly opposite. The Soviet War Economy should not increase steadily when at war with Finland the way WE's increase steadily when at war with major powers. I've considered playing the Finns and just deleting all units to see if that speeeds up the Soviets conquering Finland thus stopping the WE increase and having it reduce again.
Omnius

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/9/2013 3:59:28 AM   
JLPOWELL


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From: Pacific Time Zone
Status: offline 		The event is pretty messed up as is the whole handling of Finland. The Russians never did conquer Finland (not even the second time around) in both cases (the Winter War and what the Finns call the Continuation War) the result was a negotiated settlement. Effectively Finland sues for peace and USSR grants in both cases. Finland got a deal in each case albeit pretty with harsh conditions (although in the Continuation War they sued for peace in 1944 and didn't get a deal until 1945. In game terms the Winter War cannot be modeled to happen historically as the USSR has to completely conquer Finland which never actually happened (but of course could have).

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/9/2013 4:12:22 AM   
JLPOWELL


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Status: offline 		The entire USSR game balance is pretty rough in most scenarios. Effectiveness is dropped to a level to permit a German AI a chance vrs a human opponent, which is of course a compete fiasco when you have a competent human playing Germany.The USSR gets rolled over. Gary modified the events files and we are going at Barbarossa again, but for example Leningrad cannot be held more than about 4 turns as the Finns push the USSR back easily and with 1% effectiveness a single German division can land and take the city. I have done this twice in a row. Its Too easy. For the second try a pretty competent defender put the a corps with a top leader in Leningrad and concentrated what looks like just about the entire USSR air force, to no avail. Its not a naval issue the German Navy with air cover (from Finland) should be able to handle the USSR navy, but an entrenched corps in the city should not be vulnerable to an attack by sea from a division (or any thing the Germans could mount for that matter)

As a general observation of several scenarios it appears to me that the designers really mess up human USSR players. Lots of frozen units (why?) the AI may be too stupid to hold key cites but freezing units very much hampers a human defender. Add to this the usually very poor initial positions (GE moves first) which for Barbarossa may make sense but not so much in other scenarios and the over nerfing of effectiveness using events and the USSR is hard for a human. The USSR AI gets LOTS of extra units to make up for this and is likely stronger than most human opponents.

< Message edited by JLPOWELL -- 1/9/2013 4:34:40 AM >

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/9/2013 4:46:07 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Status: offline 		I'm thinking right now to completely do away with the Soviet collapse events.

Perhaps the way to go to make the game historical, with a stout Soviet defense where logical, like Leningrad, and with a true blitzkrieg by the Germans, is through technological levels and war readiness levels (whatever the game term is for that).

Even after my change, it seems there are other events that come right back in and reduce the effectiveness to 1% again. Let's play this out for a while at least, and then maybe try the above?

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RE: USSR seriously nerfed in 1.03v3? - 1/10/2013 2:06:02 PM   
Rasputitsa


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< Message edited by Rasputitsa -- 1/10/2013 2:09:00 PM >

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Better Finland Peace Event Needed - 1/11/2013 4:55:37 PM   
Omnius

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

The event is pretty messed up as is the whole handling of Finland. The Russians never did conquer Finland (not even the second time around) in both cases (the Winter War and what the Finns call the Continuation War) the result was a negotiated settlement. Effectively Finland sues for peace and USSR grants in both cases. Finland got a deal in each case albeit pretty with harsh conditions (although in the Continuation War they sued for peace in 1944 and didn't get a deal until 1945. In game terms the Winter War cannot be modeled to happen historically as the USSR has to completely conquer Finland which never actually happened (but of course could have).


JL Powell,
There needs to be a Finland event that ends the war with the Soviet Union around the end of March 1940, just like in history. I see that in Strategic War in Europe they did put in such an event to keep the USSR from delaying the conquest of Finland thus falsely increasing the USSR War Economy number. The Soviet WE shouldn't increase at all while at war with just Finland, or any other minor country. If there is some kind of Finland peace event in ToF it seems no one has found it's trigger. In Strategic War in Europe it seems to trigger when the Soviets get close to Helsinki rather than at some predetermined turn.
Omnius

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How to Un-Nerf the USSR - 1/11/2013 5:13:32 PM   
Omnius

 

Posts: 246
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From: Salinas, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JLPOWELL

As a general observation of several scenarios it appears to me that the designers really mess up human USSR players. Lots of frozen units (why?) the AI may be too stupid to hold key cites but freezing units very much hampers a human defender. Add to this the usually very poor initial positions (GE moves first) which for Barbarossa may make sense but not so much in other scenarios and the over nerfing of effectiveness using events and the USSR is hard for a human. The USSR AI gets LOTS of extra units to make up for this and is likely stronger than most human opponents.


JL Powell,
If you have OpenOffice you can use the spreadsheet program to eliminate frozen units by unfreezing them. I was taught this trick by another player, gwgardener I think, here and it works really well. The key is to load the saved game file in the spreadsheet program and then select the Windows EURO version, deselect comma and select semi-colon for the separator and delete the comma in the delimiter box. The spreadsheets are well laid out and it's easy to find the frozen column which shows how many turns a unit is frozen for. You can set them to zero and unfreeze all those annoying frozen units.

I really hate the frozen units as a human player, but now I can fix the problem of those units frozen for 999 turns. I don't unfreeze the units frozen by upgrades, those are legit and short. Yeah I hated being the USSR and picking to fortify some city like Leningrad only to find some good mech or tank units I placed adjacent the prior turn were then permanently frozen.

It does seem that the AI on normal isn't playing on normal but is getting some kind of increased production points. One thing about the Soviet AI getting more PP's is that it is so pathetic at defeating Finland that it's War Economy keeps increasing well above what it was historically. As a human Soviet player it is actually a good strategy to not conquer Finland until after at war with Germany. That way the Soviet WE goes way up so you can put a whole lot of units on the map and do lots more research than historically done. If playing against a Soviet AI I would play Finland by deleting every unit and just letting the Soviet AI conquer Finland more quickly.

I think they did overdo the Soviet collapse strength reduction. It looks like there may be two that trigger and perhaps one of them should be deleted by the powers that be. I know that in the 1941 Barbarossa scenario the Soviet units are reduced on turn 1 making it way too easy for a German to run roughshod over the Soviets. Then come more strength reduction events. In the 1939 scenario the Soviet units are at regular strength the first turn which is more realistic. I'm hoping the scenario designer does tweak the strength reductions somewhat lower to make it more realistic and give a human USSR player more of a chance of stopping the German juggernaut during the winter of 1941.
Omnius

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RE: How to Un-Nerf the USSR - 1/11/2013 8:42:36 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Status: offline 		In another round of fiddling with the event file for the soviets, I have changed the effectiveness hit from 99% to around 50%. I know it's all arbitrary, and if JLPowell wants to start over again with this new file, I'll be able to at have a semblance of a defense of Leningrad, Smolensk, and Kiev, encouraging the German player to use encirclment to cut off the latter two cities rather than just blowing through them.

The war preparedness level of the Soviets is already at the lowest, and set to upgrade after 4 months in this scenario.

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RE: How to Un-Nerf the USSR - 1/16/2013 5:08:02 AM   
battlevonwar

 

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Status: offline 		How far are you off these alterations?

Sounds promising...

I would love to see the Russians actually able to fight...


quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

In another round of fiddling with the event file for the soviets, I have changed the effectiveness hit from 99% to around 50%. I know it's all arbitrary, and if JLPowell wants to start over again with this new file, I'll be able to at have a semblance of a defense of Leningrad, Smolensk, and Kiev, encouraging the German player to use encirclment to cut off the latter two cities rather than just blowing through them.

The war preparedness level of the Soviets is already at the lowest, and set to upgrade after 4 months in this scenario.


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RE: How to Un-Nerf the USSR - 1/17/2013 1:05:55 PM   
gwgardner

 

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Status: offline 		I posted my mod in the mods subforum. tested only handsoff. seems to work, certainly better than the uber-nerfing.

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