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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/2/2013 3:54:28 PM   
kirk23


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Hi Warspite1,your ideas are great,especially The fleets would need to be broken up into smaller elements. Importantly, to represent the huge chance element – weather and such like – that is a feature of naval encounters - fleets that end the turn next to each other will have to roll a dice to decide whether they “find each other” and thus there is a battle.

Another thing I find strange is that the Norway - Germany Convoy, has been omitted from the game why,this convoy sailed from Narvik - Cuxhaven!,and along with the Swedish Iron Ore Convoy,gives the German player 2 very good reasons to have warships available to protect these vital supply convoys!

As for ship types the game needs counters for the following.

Pre-Dreadnoughts = All major Nations had these ships and plenty off them !

Dreadnoughts = These are the main stay of the combat fleet ( Also please lose the Battleship name,in this era they were called DREADNOUGHTS!)

Battlecruiser = Only Britain & Germany had these ship types,they were designed to hunt down Armoured cruisers,and not be used against Dreadnoughts !

Armoured Cruiser = Many protection rolls especially Over sea bases & Convoy duties !

Light Cruiser = The game for some unknown reason gives these an Anti-Submarine roll,this is not there mission,they are the eyes of the Battlefeet !

Destroyers = There were thousands of these built,used to screen the Dreadnoughts in the battlefleet from enemy destroyers,also there main roll was as Anti-Submarine protection !

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/2/2013 3:58:28 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/2/2013 3:55:15 PM   
tombo

 

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I aggree too with the naval adjustments noted above, but I'm just starting out here.
...would it be a simple MOD to change number of fleets and strenght?

looking forward to this game and growing for a long time.
cheers

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/2/2013 4:02:46 PM   
kirk23


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I feel that each ship counter should represent 10 Capital ships plus there attendant escorts ie the destroyer screen !

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/2/2013 7:34:34 PM   
kirk23


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Ok I have changed the requirements for building Naval Units Battleships,Cruisers & Submarines,I have reduced the cost and build times,I now have all the ship counters in the game I want without having to wait for them,I have worked on the idea of 10 Capital ships makes up a new fleet counter,so Germany now has 2 Counters to represnt the Pre-Dreadnoughts,2 Counters for the Dreadnoughts + 1 counter for the Battlecruisers,I also have 3 Cruiser counters and 3 Submarines,I will watch to see what the Allied AI builds and see what action occurrs with more ship counters in play!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/2/2013 7:37:26 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/2/2013 10:34:57 PM   
kirk23


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Ok I have been play testing the above naval settings for the past 3 hrs,I just built the above ship counters that I wanted in play for Germany and the High Seas Fleet,and I have to say the naval game is far more interesting,especially considering the fact that I'm still using the increased DEFENCE FACTORS for all the ship counters.I was curious to see what the British AI would do,and I'm also glad to report that it did indeed increase the number of ships Britain uses,allowing for fog of war,I did encounter a second Battleship counter!

Now if I could only figure out how to add new unit types,I would be able to edit the Battleship counters,so that I could have a weaker verion for Pre-Dreadnoughts and a faster weaker version for the Battlecruisers,and then I would be in naval narvana!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/2/2013 10:45:37 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/3/2013 1:13:22 AM   
fodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kirk23

Ok I have changed the requirements for building Naval Units Battleships,Cruisers & Submarines,I have reduced the cost and build times,I now have all the ship counters in the game I want without having to wait for them,I have worked on the idea of 10 Capital ships makes up a new fleet counter,so Germany now has 2 Counters to represnt the Pre-Dreadnoughts,2 Counters for the Dreadnoughts + 1 counter for the Battlecruisers,I also have 3 Cruiser counters and 3 Submarines,I will watch to see what the Allied AI builds and see what action occurrs with more ship counters in play!


Did you lower the upkeep costs?

From what you have listed above, starting upkeep cost would be an extra 18 pp for Germany. That's a big bite at the start of the game.



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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/3/2013 11:22:33 AM   
kirk23


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Yes I lowered the up keep off the naval units,I also increased the starting PP & MP of all the Countrys,the settings are only trial and error so far,I just want more ships in game,whether that be an official patch,or by my own doing it will happen,or the game gets shelved!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/3/2013 11:25:05 AM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/3/2013 11:58:16 PM   
tombo

 

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excellent! u da man

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/4/2013 3:58:31 PM   
kirk23


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Hi tombo the naval game is working great with the new settings,I'm still play testing the effects,I will make the files available to anyone who wants to try them out.

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/4/2013 4:23:39 PM   
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Have you made any changes to the shore bombardment capability? With more counters, presumably each counter has less effect?

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/4/2013 4:26:08 PM   
kirk23


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Yes I have reduced the shore bombardment effect,they still cause damage but not as much as before.

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/4/2013 4:46:30 PM   
warspite1


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Cool

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/5/2013 8:06:22 PM   
kirk23


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I have taken this post from ( Stockwellpete ) & I over on the Slitherene forum.

Yes, if you look at this interesting chart it shows that no dreadnought or pre-dreadnought battleships were actually sunk by gunfire during WW1 . . .

http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/sunk.html

. . . so I think this supports your idea of increasing the defence values of capital ships. Smaller ships like cruisers and destroyers were still vulnerable to gunfire so their defence values should not be so high.


Anyone wishing to fix the durability of the Naval counters in game,just alter the DEFENCE STRENGHTS. If the attack strenght is 20 multiply the defence strenght by 3,so that a Battleship with an attack off 20 would have a defence of 60 in game durability fixed!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/5/2013 8:07:08 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/5/2013 8:28:10 PM   
warspite1


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The attached shows just how good an addition a proper naval game could be to this excellent product!

In a game with Keke using some of the additional counters I believe that were ultimately discarded from the game, we have fought a typical confused naval encounter. The Turkish/German/Austrian cruisers reacted to my shelling of Turkish positions in Palestine (using a French Battleship covered by a French and British Cruiser) by seeking to attack them.

I saw the fleets heading through the Straits of Otranto and moved my ships to Cyprus (where I had the advantage of green dots) and laid in wait. Meanwhile I chased after the enemy cruisers with my Italian battleship.

Keke, unsurprisingly, fled the scene. However I could not know where they would go - north or south of Crete. I sent my British cruiser north - no luck - and so sent my French cruiser south of the island. I found the enemy and intercepted with my Italian battleship. My French Battleship could not catch the enemy sadly....

Next turn the Central Power vessels continued their flight - and given the Austrian Battleship would be there to greet them, and my French Battleship was too far away, I gave up the pursuit.

This great encounter shows just what is possible with the naval units with a bit of thought.





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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/5/2013 8:40:55 PM   
kirk23


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Superb just what the game needs Naval strategy on a grand scale,althought historically the naval game Battleship wise was slow and maybe boring to some,the fault with the German navy did not lie with the ships themselves, but with the Kaiser,who did not want to risk his beloved Battleships.The above scenario only goes to show what can be acheived with the game naval wise,game designers please take note!!


May I suggest the naval game will be even more enjoyable if you mod the defence strenghts,to something along the lines that I use.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/5/2013 8:43:06 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/5/2013 8:50:23 PM   
kirk23


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I noticed that the game has unit types not used in the game ie,the Miner and the Carrier.I was thinking about making these Pre-Dreadnoughts and Battlecruisers I hope that would be the case anyway,because when I try to create a new unit type from scratch something goes wrong and the game crashes,hence the need for a modding guide!

I'm also starting to do some art for the game,I will post some images in the future!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/5/2013 8:54:13 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/6/2013 5:11:13 AM   
kirk23


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Ha Ha Ha I may not be able to create new unit types yet,but I will learn through trial and error,but what I have figured out what to do is how to add the ships I want in the game from the start,without having to reduce the build times etc.Like everything in life if you want something bad enough you will find a way to do it.Not only can I add the ships I want I can add land forces or air forces as well if I so wished,its a great feeling when you have a eureka moment.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/6/2013 5:15:32 AM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/8/2013 4:53:29 PM   
kirk23


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Screenshot of a British naval attack very early in the war,the first attack began with close in scout of Wilhelmshaven, by a British cruiser,German AI responded by attacking the intruder,as you would expect,I withdrew the very badly damage cruiser back to port.
Next turn I attacked with 2 British Battleship units close in on Wilhelmshaven,the German AI responded by returning the German Battleship to the home port hex,next turn I attacked the German Battleship with both British Battleships,result of which reduced the German unit by 2 efficiency,combat also reduced British Battleship by 1 strenght point.

I'm using improved defence ratings to make the ships durability far strong as per historical fact,now my point of this exercise is this,this is not the Napoleonic era where by Britain nearly always used the close blockade tactic.

Now with a port defence system in place,this attack should never even have reached the German Battleship unit in its home base,minefields,submarine screen of the base + destroyer patrols,and even fortifications all within the 4 hex protection ring,should stop the attacking forces as soon as they hit the green hex protection grid.

The green 4 hex zone should act as barrier to attackers,as per the land campaigns zone of control !

The attackers should have to fight there way in,which would normally result in them being chased,with damage.




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< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/8/2013 5:14:36 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/8/2013 7:03:34 PM   
kirk23


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Ok I'm astonished at the total lack of concern to my previous post,is it the fact that its a naval based question that very few have even bothered to aknowledge the problem posed to the game as a whole,let me put it another way,if what I achieved very easily just by sailing into wilhelmshaven,is allowed to continue Germany's war is over before 1914 is out.

I won't need to bother about landing transports in France,Its far easier to knock Germany out of the war, by going straight for the throat and threatening Berlin within weeks of the wars start,landing transports in Wilhelmshaven and moving in land,and taking out the Capital.

In the real world what I can do with ease in game,would be impossible just ask the military,who's bothered about trench warfare on the Western front,if you doubt me on this watch this space I'm a very good chess player,war is a big game of chess,Germany can't defend all fronts,France will attack from the west,Russia will attack from the east,and Britain will walk in the front door via Wilhelmshaven and take down Berlin game over check mate!!

Right I'm going to put my theory to the test,I will backup all my edited files,do a clean install with the latest patch,and put my idea in action,I will post screenshots showing the demise of Germany early in the war,home for christmas was the famous saying,now lets put it to the test,watch out Kaiser the Royal navy is coming to a place near you!



< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/8/2013 7:52:02 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/8/2013 7:56:18 PM   
Myrddraal

 

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I'm not sure I understand... you've modified the unit stats and increased their defensive values right? So this result is nothing like what would happen in an unmodified game; the damage to the attacking battlefleets would be much higher.

If you really think that the Brits can just Waltz unopposed to Berlin via Wilhelmshaven, try it (with an unmodified game)!

Note that you should back up all your changes when modifying the game, and make sure you are using unmodified files only if you're playing multiplayer.

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/8/2013 8:09:31 PM   
kirk23


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Ok I accept the challenge,all files have been backed up,and game has been completely uninstalled,I will reinstall up to the latest patch,and see if I can take out Germany early in the war,as per my plan of attack against the AI


I know the AI is pretty good on land,I think I can beat it at sea,time will tell maybe it will surprise me,but I don't think so. I have taken it to the cleaners everytime at sea so far.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/8/2013 10:30:00 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/8/2013 10:06:47 PM   
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I concede, maybe it won't be able to stop you making the landings. But to convert a beach-head into a march on Berlin, that will take some doing

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/8/2013 10:29:12 PM   
kirk23


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Myrddraal

I concede, maybe it won't be able to stop you making the landings. But to convert a beach-head into a march on Berlin, that will take some doing


I have reinstalled the game with the latest patch,I will do a practice run tonight, and see how best to take out the German fleet defences using unmodified stats,Once the German fleet is crushed,its transport time in full swing,supply the beach landings via naval supply,get my French,Russian & Serbia forces busy keeping the CP busy,after that its a race to Berlin,it will be interesting but I like challenges,whatever happens the games addictive I love it!

I have never done an AFTER ACTION REPORT before,I will try one with this,complete with screenshots this should be very interesting,I must admit thou I'm going to miss not having my new Battlecruisers.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/8/2013 10:39:00 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/9/2013 12:45:43 AM   
kirk23


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Update taking out the German fleet is a push over,wiped the floor with them,so 4 turns into the war and the High Seas Fleet is bottoms up.As you say the hard part is getting a foot hold on the beaches,but even with my first attempt I have 2 Infantry on German soil,the secret I have discovered is the order that the transports arrive in,its a bit of a bottle neck,the first attempt my own warships were the biggest draw back,they blocked my transports,I won't make that mistake they second time of asking,if only the take back move was available, but hey I do have a small foot hold in and around Wilhelmshaven.

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/9/2013 10:55:52 AM   
Myrddraal

 

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Have you taken the city?

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/9/2013 4:26:36 PM   
kirk23


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No not yet,the above was my first attempt and my own forces choked up the bottleneck,I have not played today yet as I have been busy doing real life stuff,I will reload game tonight hopefully and run a second attempt,this time trying not to get everthing arriving in Helgoland all at once,I might even go to plan B, and enlist the help of a French or Russian Infantry unit as well.

The main reason for this debate, is the fact that the German fleet in fact any Fleet, is far to easily beaten,do you have plans afoot to fix this via a patch hopefully?

Further to this plan of action, I'm also going to attempt a landing in Britain with German forces,after taking out the Grand fleet first of course.

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/9/2013 4:31:05 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/9/2013 5:45:02 PM   
kirk23


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Ok I have just attempted for the first time using the basic unmodified game,to take out the British Grand Fleet in Scapa Flow,as a prelude to a German Invasion of Britain.

Findings were 1st attack British Battleships reduced my cruiser unit to 2 points strenght,I retired the cruiser to Germany next turn,in my attack with the U Boat reduced the British Battleship to 9 strenght,I then attacked with the German Battleship and reduced the British Battleship to 5 strenght & the German Battleship to 5 strenght,next round of combat sunk the German Battleship, but in so doing reduce the British Battleship to 3 strenght.

So I attack the British Battleship with my U Boat again reducing the grand fleet to 1 strenght and my Uboat unit to 9 strenght,3rd round of combat the British Battleship retired to the Scapa Flow hex,with a result that I followed it with my U Boat and sunk it as per the photo.I now have a 9 strenght U Boat sitting next to Scapa Flow,and both the German High Seas Fleet & The British Grand Fleet are both at the bottom off the North Sea.






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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/9/2013 10:49:25 PM   
kirk23


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Ok I have tried to play this game as it comes unmodified,and I have to say the more I play it the less I like,The losses in all combat is to severe and unrealistic,especially the naval game,I will be perfectly honest, if I had to play the game without being able to mod it, and tone down the losses, then I afraid to say I would hate the game in that case,its only saving grace is that thankfully I can mod it,PLEASE TONE DOWN THE LOSSES VIA A PATCH BECAUSE OTHER WISE IT SUCKS!!

< Message edited by kirk23 -- 1/9/2013 10:50:36 PM >


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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/10/2013 6:03:37 AM   
Keke


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What are you trying to insinuate?

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RE: Naval Game ? - 1/10/2013 2:02:32 PM   
kirk23


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I really don't want to be so critical of the game as a whole,but loosing both the worlds main Battlefleets,all within 5 turns of war starting is absolutely nuts!

I have also today done a test run with my usual improved defence settings,German AI battlefleet engages a British Battleship & one of the new French Pre-dreadnought units in the English channel,now in history this would more than likely result in both sides having a quick scuffle and then the weaker force would return to port.Well thats not how the German AI plays it out,oh no its sticks around, out number in enemy territory I might ad,and gets itself sunk instead which is bonkers,the AI should scarper when it know its out numbered and can't win!

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