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Railways - 12/30/2012 1:39:17 AM   
BossGnome

 

Posts: 629
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: Canada
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Hi,

In my current game against Isokron, I have had the misfortune of being on the receiving end of a highly effective strategy; the successive bombing by the Wehrmarcht of the 4 bridges located at Nowocherask (close to Rostov - the Rostov bridge also works), the bridge at bystralia (between Kamensk and Morowsky), the bridge at bobroff, and the bridge righ behind voronezh.

Blowing up these 4 bridges will completely deny the soviets ANY rail movement west of them. Now, I don't blame Isokron for using this strategy - it works, and it is fair game. But I hope we can agree that it doesnt make ANY sense whatsoever. I had (naively) assumed that, as long as a railway can reach a map edge - any edge - trains could travel along it (the assumption of off-map movement, and all that). Not so it turns out. Despite having several railways reaching the northern map edge at several points which were, historically soviet territory (and stayed so through the entirety of the campaign), no trains can come at all.

Moreover, the area cut off from rail transport is 150 km wide, reaching all the way from Voronezh down to the Black Sea. Are you really trying to tell me that blowing up 4 bridges means that there is not a single train left to ferry troops around within this massive area?


This is the first rule I have seen in this game that I am really angry with - it makes no sense at all, and really needs to be addressed.

PS: Isokron, I haven't given up on our game yet (though you are kicking my butt now) I am simply away for a few days for the new year!

_____________________________

"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne
Post #: 1
RE: Railways - 12/30/2012 9:01:12 PM   
wallas

 

Posts: 112
Joined: 2/4/2005
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Rail bridges are the Achilles heel of the Russian supply net. First thing I do is build 15 engineer cadres and play the engineer card a few times. I attach nearly all of my engineers to Stavka and just sit them at the critical bridges and let them accumulate repair points. make sure to cover complete the southern line into the caucasu. When your opponent bombs them on his turn just repair them on yours,and rail on through. Also position your air force back off the front line to screen your supply net after a few turns of bombing your bridges for no effect he will realize his air is better suited being used against your air and ground units. I also build anti aircraft cadres also since both these units are never on the front lines so experience is not as much an issue, and your tanks are like magnet for axis air so use that to your advantage. Also remember that the germans suffer the same fate so save your level bomber force and get ready for some fall/winter payback



< Message edited by wallas -- 12/30/2012 9:02:26 PM >

(in reply to BossGnome)
Post #: 2
RE: Railways - 12/30/2012 11:31:36 PM   
BossGnome

 

Posts: 629
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: Canada
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The point is, the rule does not make sense historically or realistically, so these countermeasure should be unnecessary.

_____________________________

"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne

(in reply to wallas)
Post #: 3
RE: Railways - 12/31/2012 2:49:25 AM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 875
Joined: 6/24/2008
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Any strategy that a opponent uses that is not countered is going to be effective.

What he is doing is not really 'ahistorical' but is sort of a sum total of an interdiction campaign on supply movement. It is taking most of his level bombers to achieve.....which are not bombing your troops.

Wallas is correct. Leave engineers sitting on bridge hexes. When a bridge is repaired, it doesn't reset the engineering points to zero....and they will accumulate to 400 (450?) So when they are bombed, you will repair them immediately. Even without AA to damage him, he will get discouraged at what will amount to be a 'waste of time' for his precious bombing force.

Using his airforce for interdiction is a viable strategy..however, it is easier for you to deal with it, and turn it into your own advantage.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to BossGnome)
Post #: 4
RE: Railways - 12/31/2012 5:28:08 AM   
BossGnome

 

Posts: 629
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: Canada
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I completely agree - like I said, if I had been my opponent I probably would have done the same. I also agree that bombing bridges is a viable strategy that should be used to deny supply and ease of movement. What I cannot accept is that bombing 4 bridges stops the entirety of rail movement in all of southern russia, in something like a 60,000 km area... Hell, I might even be able to accept THAT, if I didn't have 3 very intact rail lines going north into off-map Russian held territory.

Now yes, I understand that you could agree that this is some abstract representation of an extensive bombing campaign but, um, his planes were merrily bombing my troops and airfields until last turn, where he just turned, yes, his entire airforce and blew all those bridges in 1 turn. So it was not really an extensive bombing campaign but rather a quick surgical strike at various sites.

Of course, in the future I will take the appropriate measures to make sure this doesnt happen again. So this is not a gamebreaker for me. It just seems like a very strange turn of events that I cannot adequately, despite trying, reconcile with reality on the ground.

_____________________________

"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 5
RE: Railways - 12/31/2012 5:34:57 PM   
Vic


Posts: 3638
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline
I think in games started with v1.05 this should be much less of an issue due to the ferry ability that has been introduced for the Soviets.

best,
Vic

_____________________________

Victor Reijkersz Designs
www.vrdesigns.nl

(in reply to BossGnome)
Post #: 6
RE: Railways - 1/2/2013 4:28:01 AM   
BossGnome

 

Posts: 629
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
Hi Vic,

Thanks for your response; our game was indeed started under 1.05b, but what annoys me is less the supply hit (which I am indeed taking, quite heavily) but rather the complete paralyzation of all soviet rail across all of southern Russia. Until 2 days go the trains were all running fine, but ten a few bridges are bombed and they are nowhere to be found the next day?

_____________________________

"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 7
RE: Railways - 1/2/2013 5:45:47 AM   
LiquidSky


Posts: 875
Joined: 6/24/2008
Status: offline


It is annoying...very annoying. However, now that you know the effect, you can easily prevent the German bombing campaign by just leaving engineers on those 'few' bridges. They build up to 400 EP's...and will not lose the excess when the repair a bridge..meaning they can keep on repairing. And immediately after the bridge is repaired, you can use the rail line over it to rail your troops.

I did the same to Wallas in our game, and in our current game, I no longer bomb his bridges to prevent rail movement, as I know they will just be repaired anyways (preventing nothing). As for the supply, I also notice that with the new Ferry rules, it only costs 1AP to move supply over a ferry, of which there are a few on the map.

There is a setting, for those who wish it, where you can turn off 'combat' damage to bridges. Making units spending AP's the only way to destroy them. You could also turn that off, making bridges immune. So if you really dont like the bombing of bridges, you can turn it off as a rule change with the editor.

_____________________________

What's the sense of sending $2 million missiles to hit a $10 tent that's empty?

— President George W. Bush, Oval Office meeting, 13 September 2001.

(in reply to BossGnome)
Post #: 8
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