RE: Manpower Bug?

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RE: Manpower Bug?

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RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/29/2012 11:43:45 AM

Michael T

Posts: 1546
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online

The past half dozen turns or so Germany has had more troops withdraw than reinforce. Losses are higher than replacements. Bad weather reduces replacements to a trickle as well.

You also have an upgrade going on, 75mm AT for 50 mm AT. That will suck up a lot of ARM.

There is nothing wrong.

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(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 31

RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/29/2012 5:19:15 PM

Pelton

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The past half dozen turns or so Germany has had more troops withdraw than reinforce. Losses are higher than replacements. Bad weather reduces replacements to a trickle as well.

You also have an upgrade going on, 75mm AT for 50 mm AT. That will suck up a lot of ARM.

There is nothing wrong.

Slow down junior.

Lets wait to here from poeple that know what they are talking about.

As JB stated "If the numbers continue to grow in the active pool while not in mud then I'd start to worry."

They have been for Germany and allies for 3 snow turns and back into clear turns (58ish.)

They are in the active pool not moving for allies for a long time.

This issue is important for everyone not just you, the wite world does not center around you as you would like to think.

Get over yourself, bro its the holidays lighten up and enjoy.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Michael T)

Post #: 32

RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/30/2012 2:13:47 PM

rrbill

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Wish you had edited your last remark.

Sounds like you're lobbying for a way out of a lost position, rather than playing the game. If there's a game flaw, it wouldn't be the first; get over it.

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 33

RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/30/2012 2:52:27 PM

Pelton

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Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

Wish you had edited your last remark.

Sounds like you're lobbying for a way out of a lost position, rather than playing the game. If there's a game flaw, it wouldn't be the first; get over it.

Your a silly little boy, only one looking to get out is MT, go cry to him.

Stay on topic if your going to post on thread, more data less cring.

I am looking for a hot fix as Grids vs Tarhunnas.
It would not be the first or last.

I see your a newbie so your forgiven.

Personall attacks are for kids, talk data son.

Go convince MT not to quit hes cring a river from what I am told.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to rrbill)

Post #: 34

RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/31/2012 5:02:03 AM

Michael T

Posts: 1546
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online

I might suggest that your allies pools are high because I have deliberatly avoided attacking them. I would say 99% of losses I have put on you are from German units. I would not be surprised if most of your allied units are at full strength.

As for your OOB during the summer I have been putting more permanent losses on you than what you get back in Rein/Rep since your peek in Apr/May. I have been tracking your OOB during summer v closely against perm losses through my attacks and attrition. It adds up.

Since mud started total rein's/reps have been less than w/d and attrition losses. So OOB goes down. Now that snow and blizzard are back my attacks are ramping up again. So again your OOb will go down until your large rein's come in in 1943. BUT as soon as 1943 kicks in your losses will increase again because I will dump more corps on the map so your losses may outweigh your new guys. Have to wait on that one.

I think having a ARM pool of less than 100,000 will mean that upgrades will affect your replacement rate. I know it screwed me for about 8 turns with the Rifle squad upgrade. I now have over 1.2 million men and 300K of ARM sitting in pools. My units are not all 100% TOE. But are in refit. It's simply the replacement system struggling to keep up. No issue.

As for the post of mine you refer to back at T35 or what not that I think was caused by you experimenting with different versions on your PC as you pointed out in a PM. Not saying it was deliberate on your behalf but it seems the only explanation as I believe my logistics phase is done on your PC. If you had a older version at that point in time then my ARM and Truck production would reflect that, and it did.

Anyway I honestly see nothing wrong with the game pool wise or OOB wise. All the figures add up to my reckoning.

One thing you may need to consider is what have you disbanded? For example if you disbanded all your rail dudes then you might get 100K of men but they still need to be armed. Also this will affect OOB levels. Check your list of disbandments.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 12/31/2012 5:03:47 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/31/2012 8:06:54 AM

Joel Billings

Posts: 18456
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline

Everyone take a breath. I took a quick look at one of the saves that Lee downloaded off the server. My first sense is that there are not a lot of units in refit in the rear, and those that are seem to be building up to their max TOE settings. There are several units that could get more replacements but have hit their Max TOE. The Rumanians have lots of men, and 0 armaments. The Hungarians have plenty of both, but I couldn't find any units that were in refit that were much below the Max TOE. Units in the front line, even those in Refit, will usually have a hard time keeping up with attrition losses. Only units off the front line and in refit will fill up. The only thing that looks odd to me is that 0 men are going to the Allies during the regular replacement phase (even those with Armaments), but when I look around at the Finns and the Hungarians, I don't see units in the rear that are far below their Max TOE levels (a few points below, but again, there is some amount of friction in the system). I will send the saves to Pavel, and he may see something. For now, all I can suggest is that you raise the Max TOE levels on some of your units, and you pull some back into refit and see if that helps (the untis I see in refit off the front line are basically up to their Max TOEs, which in some cases you have below 100%). I looked at your turns 76 and 77.

_____________________________

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Post #: 36

RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/31/2012 9:16:12 AM

Joel Billings

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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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Given the time of year, don't expect any additional feedback on this for several days. I'd suggest continuing on as we have downloaded the saves we need to check into what's going on. Thanks and Happy New Year!

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 37

RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/31/2012 2:40:02 PM

Karri

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Post no5 shows german replacement pool, no? It says 17000, and that is with ALL pools, therefore maybe your German manpower pool is empty.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 38

RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/31/2012 2:46:59 PM

Wuffer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Post no5 shows german replacement pool, no? It says 17000, and that is with ALL pools, therefore maybe your German manpower pool is empty.

this is from another game, posted just for comparision.
read the header!

edit: happy new ... etc.

< Message edited by Wuffer -- 12/31/2012 2:47:29 PM >

(in reply to Karri)

Post #: 39

RE: Manpower Bug? - 12/31/2012 3:14:42 PM

Karri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri

Post no5 shows german replacement pool, no? It says 17000, and that is with ALL pools, therefore maybe your German manpower pool is empty.

this is from another game, posted just for comparision.
read the header!

edit: happy new ... etc.

Ah, ok. Missed that. There's not pic of German active pool then.

(in reply to Wuffer)

Post #: 40

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 1:34:07 AM

Pelton

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Russian Men OOB: 8,726,000---------Total Loses:4,879,700
Net of: -30,000 ---------------------- Loses last turn: 57,781
Russian Gun OOB:122,650
Net of: 200
Ready Rifle Squads: 44,314 Net change: 14

GHC OOB: 3,465,000 ----------Total Loses:2,146,846
Net of: +23,000---------------Loses last turn: 28,925
GHC Gun OOB: 37,300
Net of: +400
Men in GHC manpower Pool: 161,500 - 134k in active pool.

��Won��Lost��Ratio
SHC��4��10��28 %
GHC��4��0��---00%

Air War

Ratio: 20 : 1

GHC loses: 10
SHC loses: 198

Its magic.

This turn OOB went up 23,000 and manpower pool only went down 4k.

Last turn pool increased 10k and OOB dropped 30k.

Losses were about same.

I am going by the turn by turn total loses for now.

This is more in line with what should be going on, unlike the last 18 turns. IF things are working magically right now then OOB should increase every turn as it should have been from turns 58 to 76.

I would like and explaination from 2by3 why OOB tanked 104k on turn 58. When loses were no wheres near that high. 40k ish. Then add in normal replacements and there is no way OOB should have dropped 104k.

Replacement pool was static all sumer at 40-60k,total

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Karri)

Post #: 41

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 2:37:23 AM

Joel Billings

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I want answers, @#$@-it!

I wish I could, but I can't give you answers other than those I've already given you. Did you alter behavior at all (i.e. any more units on refit and/or pulled from the line? Any more units with their MAX TOE values increased?)? Pavel may see something when he has a chance to take a look, but as I said, other than the Allies having 0 manpower going to units in the normal replacement phase (and there could be reasons for that - there was a blizzard turn in there as well which might have an impact), I didn't see anything else obvious that looked odd.

< Message edited by Joel Billings -- 1/1/2013 2:38:56 AM >

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 42

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 3:10:59 AM

Michael T

Posts: 1546
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: online

He had 24K of rein's this turn.

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Post #: 43

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 3:14:53 AM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I want answers, @#$@-it! I wish I could, but I can't give you answers other than those I've already given you. Did you alter behavior at all (i.e. any more units on refit and/or pulled from the line? Any more units with their MAX TOE values increased?)? Pavel may see something when he has a chance to take a look, but as I said, other than the Allies having 0 manpower going to units in the normal replacement phase (and there could be reasons for that - there was a blizzard turn in there as well which might have an impact), I didn't see anything else obvious that looked odd.

There is no rush as each turn is being saved.

I am very thankfull JB your looking and I understand what you said last post.

2by3 always gets to it asap, it is the holidays.

Nothing is different on my side as I am doing the very same thing I am doing in all my games.

This issue started before mud, during mud during snow and during blizzard.

As far as I can tell starting turn 58 100kish men magicly disappeared, and my OOB has been dropping/active pool building until this turn when it lvled off.

I sure would like and answer as to why, but I never said this sec.

As long as Elmo keeps saving I am very happy.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 44

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 9:18:02 AM

Cannonfodder

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You show us that you have got arms and manpower in the pool. But what are your TOE settings and what is the strength of your units relative to TOE?

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Post #: 45

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 1:45:18 PM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

You show us that you have got arms and manpower in the pool. But what are your TOE settings and what is the strength of your units relative to TOE?

Settings are at 90 to 100% same as with all games ect ect ect

They have data and saves.

Active pool dropping by about 6k per turn last 2 turns, better then going up by 6k a turn for last 20 turns.

The Huns have men in active pool close to 100k (men and arm), units at front that are simply not getting replasements. They should be slowly increasing, but toe is slowly or has been dropping down to 75%ish now from 90%. Even units in front should slowly increase. I have played a ton of games todate and have never seen this. Post #23 shows the Hun manpower and armaments abd this post shows toes and % All the 100% are back in the homeland, but yet their toe is dropping?

Fins also have a bunch in pools and they haven't been moving.

Any other questions Cannonfodder or data you like to see?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/1/2013 1:46:58 PM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Cannonfodder)

Post #: 46

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 1:57:28 PM

Cannonfodder

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Yeah, I am wondering what the german divisions look like and if you see a difference between units at front line (attrition) and behind the front.

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Post #: 47

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 2:09:44 PM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Yeah, I am wondering what the german divisions look like and if you see a difference between units at front line (attrition) and behind the front.

They have been set at 90 or 99% toe and most are 80% to 98% full with average being 86%.

Not going to post that, but 2by3 has last 3 turns of saves, so they can back me up on that.

Nothing specail going on same stuff I have always done.

Hmm not sure about atrition rates, but that might explain the drop in toe of units not at the front as with Huns/Italians and Fins. Guess 2by3 would have to look at that. Not sure why they would not be getting any replasements though.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Cannonfodder)

Post #: 48

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 2:37:33 PM

Seminole

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quote:

Hmm not sure about atrition rates, but that might explain the drop in toe of units not at the front as with Huns/Italians and Fins. Guess 2by3 would have to look at that. Not sure why they would not be getting any replasements though.

Are you rotating them off the line to refit and regain replacement, or just expecting them to fill with replacements while on the front line (adjacent to enemy units)?

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 49

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 2:52:24 PM

Marquo

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Are they getting refit with different arms, etc?

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Post #: 50

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 3:15:03 PM

rrbill

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Think Joel's answer addresses the issue until someone can generate a repeatable situation that presents the issue in a clear way. Good luck. Challenging from that perspective and also from communications perspective. Common sense directs attention to the next issue.

Why? Because one might want to sell WitW or WitE successors to a wider audience. We'd all be happy for that. Effective, moderate, concise technical forum posts are a plus for the business.

(in reply to Marquo)

Post #: 51

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 3:18:11 PM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Hmm not sure about atrition rates, but that might explain the drop in toe of units not at the front as with Huns/Italians and Fins. Guess 2by3 would have to look at that. Not sure why they would not be getting any replasements though.

Are you rotating them off the line to refit and regain replacement, or just expecting them to fill with replacements while on the front line (adjacent to enemy units)?

Even hun units in Hungary are not getting replasements and they are 200 miles from front.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Seminole)

Post #: 52

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 3:29:38 PM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rrbill

Think Joel's answer addresses the issue until someone can generate a repeatable situation that presents the issue in a clear way. Good luck. Challenging from that perspective and also from communications perspective. Common sense directs attention to the next issue.

Why? Because one might want to sell WitW or WitE successors to a wider audience. We'd all be happy for that. Effective, moderate, concise technical forum posts are a plus for the business.

Been no answer for the 104k single turn drop in manpower and as can be seen in the effective, moderate, concise technical post on the Huns to name one, there is no answer as to why units far from the front with 100% toe set are dropping and not recieving replasments.

As JB explained " Allies are not getting any men at all dispite arm and men in active pools"

As I have provided the SS of the toe lvls and dropping toe it simply can't get any more concise or technical then that.

This has been going on for a while not just a turn or 2

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to rrbill)

Post #: 53

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 3:50:24 PM

Seminole

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quote:

Even hun units in Hungary are not getting replasements and they are 200 miles from front.

What is their current TOE and TOE setting? Are those units (Hungarian 200 miles behind the front) you mentioned on refit?

I ask, because in the manual it states (18.2.2)

quote:

Infantry units that are not set to refit are limited by default in the replacements they can
receive. Soviet Infantry units will not normally receive replacements for a type of ground
element that has more than 60% of that types TOE. After 1941, Axis Infantry units will not
normally receive replacements for a type of ground element that has more than 80% of that
types TOE. This is intended to allow units to operate below TOE as they did historically. The
player must set the unit to refit status to get specific units up to full strength.

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 54

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 4:26:12 PM

Pelton

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Even hun units in Hungary are not getting replasements and they are 200 miles from front.

What is their current TOE and TOE setting? Are those units (Hungarian 200 miles behind the front) you mentioned on refit?

I ask, because in the manual it states (18.2.2)

quote:

Infantry units that are not set to refit are limited by default in the replacements they can
receive. Soviet Infantry units will not normally receive replacements for a type of ground
element that has more than 60% of that types TOE. After 1941, Axis Infantry units will not
normally receive replacements for a type of ground element that has more than 80% of that
types TOE. This is intended to allow units to operate below TOE as they did historically. The
player must set the unit to refit status to get specific units up to full strength.

Yes they are listed in post #46. All the ones in white or at 100% are in Hunland. All units are in refit.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Seminole)

Post #: 55

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 4:52:12 PM

rrbill

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Nothing better than a concise set of 54 posts to explicate the thread title, "Manpower Bug."

Thinking a bit, maybe its not possible to create a test bed for all seasons and reasons. Amazing that the bug appears in one turn and goes away in another. God help the developers. My own approach is to switch the setting on my microscope to macroscope. What you don't see can't hurt.

Hope this leads to better games, but fear it delays things.

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 56

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 8:21:23 PM

Joel Billings

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From: Santa Rosa, CA
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Yes, thanks for posting that part of the manual. I had forgotten it myself.

The Hungarians in refit are frozen units back in Hungary (or on the front line). I noticed that they were below 100% as well as was suprised by this. It's possible that something about them being frozen is impacting their ability to get refit replacements (or any replacements, or they are being hit by the 80% rule). I think the 80% rule explains a lot. If you start rotating some of your units off the front and putting them on refit (not reserve), then they will fill up. Thanks again to Seminole for pointing out the missing link.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

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Post #: 57

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 9:36:49 PM

latosusi

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Please check my post on close support as well. and happy new year!

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 58

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 10:30:50 PM

Seminole

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quote:

Yes they are listed in post #46. All the ones in white or at 100% are in Hunland. All units are in refit.

Ok, so the units attached to 2nd Hun Army are on the frontlines? Do you rotate them off the frontline to receive replacements?

You didn't address that question previously, and I note that you wrote:

quote:

units at front that are simply not getting replasements. They should be slowly increasing, but toe is slowly or has been dropping down to 75%ish now from 90%. Even units in front should slowly increase.

In my experience with static frontlines (not static unit mode) refit unit mode doesn't really work, and TOE% slowly grinds down by frictional attrition without any direct combat. e.g. Bottleneck north of Lake Janisjarvi, the units on the line see their TOE% decrease and the only way to get it back over 70% is to pull them off the line for a few turns.

Additional considerations:

quote:

18.2.3
However, simply having the ground element equipment and manpower available doesn't mean they will get to the unit that requires replacements. The unit must pass several checks to see that they actually get replacements, and how many they get.

I notice your unfrozen Hungarians are reporting directly to 2nd Hungarian Army. Did you disband their parent Corps HQs (III, IV, VII Hun. Corps) - is this part of the reserve activation optimization? This would reduce the number of chances they have to make a successful check. I wouldn't be surprised if min-maxing some aspects of the game have unanticipated consequences in other aspects of the game.

Are these units (reporting to 2nd Hungarian Army) on the frontline?

If so, additional factors apply:

quote:

v1.04.10 - April 18, 2011
Units set to refit (and those automatically considered in refit) will no longer receive the following benefits from refit if they are adjacent to an enemy controlled hex during their logistics phase:
* Morale bonus if under 50 morale (9.1.1)
* Replacements in the refit sub-segment. Instead they will receive replacements in the normal replacement sub-segment (without priority) and be treated as if they are not in refit mode for the purposes of the TOE limits (18.2.1 and 18.2.2)
* The refit experience (training) benefit when their experience is lower than their morale (previously not clearly documented) - (9.3.1)
* Priority on upgrading and swapping of equipment (18.3)

v1.04.22 - May 19, 2011
Refitting units next to enemy hexes have a 25% chance of getting more replacements than if they weren't on refit, but the exact amount of the additional replacements will vary greatly depending on the distance from the railhead.

Pull a few of them off the line (preferably onto rail) and see if their TOE% doesn't bounce up.

(in reply to Pelton)

Post #: 59

RE: Manpower Bug? - 1/1/2013 11:14:05 PM

Pelton

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I hear what your saying, but I personally have never seen front line units toe drop just sitting, they always go up.

I have pulled back 2 units and I am sure the toe will go up.

Having said that in my game vs Hugh the Huns have been in the front fighting or sitting in contact with SHC for the winter turn 88 and the toes are higher then in this game at turn 78.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Seminole)

Post #: 60