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Forward defense AAR?

 
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Forward defense AAR? - 12/25/2012 5:38:18 PM   
amatteucci

 

Posts: 284
Joined: 5/14/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline 		I'm looking for an AAR of the GC, from the Soviet side, that shows some sort of successful forward defence. Is there any on the AAR section?

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RE: Forward defense AAR? - 12/26/2012 2:49:34 AM   
hfarrish

 

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Joined: 1/3/2011
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The current Pelton v. MT AAR sort of shows this, although there is a lot of noise there b/c the Soviet basically knew what the German player was going to do due to past AARs. Against good German players forward defenses are quite difficult, so there is sort of a dearth of games showing that.

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RE: Forward defense AAR? - 12/26/2012 3:03:14 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

Posts: 570
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think the MT vs Pelton game is an example of a forward defense so much as it is an example of the German player drawing his line in the sand about 300 kms (?) too early.

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RE: Forward defense AAR? - 12/26/2012 4:29:35 AM   
Michael T


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Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
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quote:

The current Pelton v. MT AAR sort of shows this, although there is a lot of noise there b/c the Soviet basically knew what the German player was going to do due to past AARs. Against good German players forward defenses are quite difficult, so there is sort of a dearth of games showing that


This is simply not true. I was aware of the possibility of a hook move on Leningrad. BUT I had to cover all bases anyhow. Contray to popular belief my defence as Russian has always been of the belief that Leningrad could be held. This game against Pelton was the result of previous experiences being built upon. At no stage was I certain which way Pelton was going in the area of Leningrad. Read the AAR and you will see my uncertainty about his true direction. He made it difficult for me to determine his main attack route.

It was simply fate that he decided to throw everything at Leningrad and I had decided to throw everything in to hold it from the start. It was more like two poker players throwing more and more chips in to the pot. He blinked first.

My defence had nothing to do with what Pelton did in his previous AAR's. Actually anyone reading my AAR's as Russian would easily interpret that I would defend Leningrad strongly.

Sorry to hijak the thread but I am tired of this misconception being propagated.



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RE: Forward defense AAR? - 12/26/2012 10:22:05 AM   
janh

 

Posts: 1140
Joined: 6/12/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, I recall your uncertainties and you keeping options open. That game was an example of forward fighting and delaying (between two equally experienced players), especially in AGN and northern AGC sectors. In the south you did the only smart thing, to choose better terrain and a defense behind the Djenpr rather than fighting it out right away by pushing everything forward against the Germans. You apparently made the best of terrain and got the best out of your units fighting abilities that way, which is probably the text book solution.

The only unusual thing about that AAR, which makes it less representative or typical after a certain point (and that one was well before winter hit...), was Pelton in this case. He didn't put any serious pressure on you in the south or the center, which is a major mistake as 1941 is essentially the only year when widening the frontage is clearly in favor for the German. Stacking or concentrating weak units for the Soviet versus spreading them out. Creating pockets also appears to work best with width between the pincers, not to mention that this way initiative and uncertainty are bigger and the Russian has to gamble over what to protect. Pelton chose the best defensive terrain from Soviet POV for his single-axis advance, woody, hilly and one flank squeezed tight by a large lake. A single confined attack alone having already been a bad example in history many times... Pelton's strategy was a big gamble, all or nothing. If it had worked, and the plug sprung open, it may have yielded a spectacular huge result though...

There is the 2nd IdahoNYer (S) against Scar (A) game, which ended a couple weeks back with Scar giving up. Scar had little experience playing the Russian side, and even had a few unlucky mud turns and bad combat rolls, so his 41 advance came to a halt before hurting the Red Armies resources and troops bad enough. IdahoNYer did well, though he didn't really fight for every yard and town, he only withdrew when outflanked or in bad terrain. With the blizzard rules modifying the Soviet counters, Scar suffered very badly until spring.

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Post #: 5
RE: Forward defense AAR? - 12/26/2012 11:49:08 AM   
juret

 

Posts: 175
Joined: 10/17/2011
Status: offline 		I was actually looking this up yesterday as i am playing soviet in my game now.

In MT/Pelton thread u can see MT writes something about how peltons forces was prioritiezed towards AGN and its pretty easy to know that leninggrad is target then. Its in the 3-4 first pages of that AAR. So he didnt know but after recon and scouting in the game he knew pelton had 7-8-9 mot/pz up there and therefore made a good defence at rivers and swamps.

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Post #: 6
RE: Forward defense AAR? - 12/26/2012 2:44:55 PM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1874
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		This was not a successful defense, but I think you can learn from it. The game was between Tarhunnas as the Russian and Michael T as the German. This is Tarhunnas AAR from that game. Both are top notch players.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3108453

Just my opinion, but a forward defense by the Russian right now is silly if they also wish to win with the current version. The Russians can't take the losses they historically did for standing and fighting because they don't get the replacements they should. In addition, they have no reason at all to stand and fight as the Russians have more than ample rail cap to move out the important industries they need to move out to continue the war.

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Post #: 7
RE: Forward defense AAR? - 12/26/2012 4:07:57 PM   
amatteucci

 

Posts: 284
Joined: 5/14/2000
From: ITALY
Status: offline 		Klydon,
I was aware of the Michael T vs. Tarhunnas AAR you linked. In fact it was the very thing that caused me to ask whether there was a successful forward defense AAR somewhere. Thank you, anyway for the tip.

I understand that, given the current status of the game engine and the 1941-15 campaign scenario, retreating and avoiding encirclements at all costs is the olny foolprof strategy for the Soviet player in the summer of 1941 (and for the German player during the first blizzard) but if I decide to invest a lot of my free time playing WitE in a PBEM (against the AI I never had problems to win, even when defending forward and counterattacking from the very start) I'd like to do something that could resemble war on the eastern front (after all, I'm playing WitE, not MERP) even if it's not the easiest path to victory (of course, I would like it's not the fastest path to defeat, either!).

Just now I'm taking a look at the Tullius Detritus vs Marquo AAR. Not exactly a forward defense but, at least, TD's dispositions show more resemblance to an Eastern front map than some checkerboards and carpets I've seen here!

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 8
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