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Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals?

 
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Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 2:28:14 PM   
Kull


Posts: 1001
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		From the start of the game, I've noticed that certain Japanese devices do not seem to accumulate (visibly anyway) in the Pool Totals. To take one example, "Support Devices" have a 1200 a month build rate, and with basically all my units set at "Do not take Replacements", you'd think there would be a sizable number accumulating in the Pool - but not so. Yet when I set a few aviation units to take replacements, they did magically consume Support Devices, even though the Pool Total has been zero from the get go. Oddly enough, this does not seem to be true of most devices (i.e. they are built, and the pool totals are something other than zero, and they do change over time). Is this something unique to Japan, or is my game just borked?




Attachment (1)

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AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan
Post #: 1
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 3:29:24 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3257
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Those items fall within sections 13.2.2.6, 13.2.2.7 and 16.4 of the manual.

Japan builds those items as required and they are consumed immediately, using vehicle and armament points as appropriate.

Alfred

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 2
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 5:25:28 PM   
Kull


Posts: 1001
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Those items fall within sections 13.2.2.6, 13.2.2.7 and 16.4 of the manual.

Japan builds those items as required and they are consumed immediately, using vehicle and armament points as appropriate.

Alfred


Alfred - thanks for the reply. I will say the first two sections don't provide much information on this issue - they talk specifically about devices being available "from pools" and don't even mention that items might arrive from somewhere else. However, you are correct that 16.4 does address this directly:

quote:

"If needed items are in the pool (or there are armament points ready to build them if the forces are Japanese and the Production system for Japan is tuned on), then they may be added to the unit."


Taking another look at the Industry/Troops Resource Pool" screen, I realized there's a toggle that allows one to identify those items which are NOT distributed via the Pool system.....as well as those that ARE (see graphic below). Some of the choices for what are and are not in pools seem a tad odd, but whatever. The takeaway is that one can at least use the toggle to identify them and plan accordingly.

A final comment on what "plan accordingly apparently means. With the Allies you could look at the build rate and the number of items in the pools and figure out which units needed replacements turned on/off, as well as the devices that needed to be pooled to keep them from being completely drained. With Japan, that doesn't seem to be possible. Apparently I need to turn replacements on for most units (probably all except those in Manchuria/Korea/Japan) and just hope for the best. For example, in the graphic below, the build rate for 81 mm Mortars is "1". If I was playing as the Allies, that thing would definitely have "stockpiled" toggled to "Y". In this case there's no pool, so presumably if I'm not consuming them, they just disappear into the ether. As a former Allied-only player, that's another "new thing" that's fundamentally different when playing as Japan.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 3
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 6:54:40 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1627
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Database has five Japanese 81 mm mortars, but only 3 of them are actually used: IJ Army and Navy are using one, Chinese RGC units one and Manchukuo units one. All have identical stats.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 4
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 7:17:34 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3257
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Japanese logistics can be either different or the same, as Allied logistics. It all turns on whether Production is On or Off in the scenario.

With Production On, Build Rates are meaningless for those items covered by the first two manual sections I drew your attention to. However the screen you posted has to do double duty both when Production is Off and when dealing with the Allied side. That is where the Build Rate becomes relevant.

Alfred

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 5
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 7:53:22 PM   
Kull


Posts: 1001
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Japanese logistics can be either different or the same, as Allied logistics. It all turns on whether Production is On or Off in the scenario.

With Production On, Build Rates are meaningless for those items covered by the first two manual sections I drew your attention to. However the screen you posted has to do double duty both when Production is Off and when dealing with the Allied side. That is where the Build Rate becomes relevant.

Alfred


Wow. So for the Japanese Player, "Build Rates" are completely meaningless when Production is on. I truly had no idea - just assumed (there's that word) that Japanese production somehow fed the Build Rates which then would show up as a pool of devices. Well, this is a completely different kettle of fish. At least it does decrease one aspect of micromanagement that the Allied player has to deal with. Thanks for taking the time to explain.


_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 6
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 9:29:33 PM   
michaelm


Posts: 8198
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		The devices 250-255 are special ones which do have rates for Allied, but not Japan - even though device is shared there is only one build rate defined for a side.

I'll suppress the build rate if not applicable to ease confusion for the special devices.

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Michael

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 7
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 9:49:57 PM   
sanch

 

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Joined: 10/30/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
I'll suppress the build rate if not applicable to ease confusion for the special devices.

Or even better - replace the number with something like 'On Demand'. And then, to ice the cake, have the mouseover say something like 'if nn HI is available', where nn is the amount of HI needed to build one of them.

(in reply to michaelm)
Post #: 8
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 11:06:44 PM   
PaxMondo


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Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanch


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm
I'll suppress the build rate if not applicable to ease confusion for the special devices.

Or even better - replace the number with something like 'On Demand'. And then, to ice the cake, have the mouseover say something like 'if nn HI is available', where nn is the amount of HI needed to build one of them.

Not HI, but rather ARM or VEH are used. HI is used indirectly. For IJ, VEH is generally the limiting factor for those devices needing it, not HI.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to sanch)
Post #: 9
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/21/2012 11:08:50 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The devices 250-255 are special ones which do have rates for Allied, but not Japan - even though device is shared there is only one build rate defined for a side.

I'll suppress the build rate if not applicable to ease confusion for the special devices.

Also, I believe, that Production ON/OFF also controls whether or not ARM/VEH points are expended when the device is created. When ON, you use VEH/ARM points. When OFF, you do not. I beleive.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to michaelm)
Post #: 10
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/22/2012 9:58:21 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2528
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The devices 250-255 are special ones which do have rates for Allied, but not Japan - even though device is shared there is only one build rate defined for a side.



Should be the other way round. The Allies had a much bigger manpower pool of people with skills around mechanics and machinery (many more cars and agriculture, minign etc. much more mechanized in the US than in Japan) while semi-medieval Japan lacked sufficient numbers of skilled mechanics throughout the war.

It is ok that the Japanese AI gets what is needed when it is needed, but a human Japanes player should face the historic shortages.

I my naivety and lack of understanding for the game mechanics I did assume that the build rate actually means something, so I did decrease the build rate for AV support from 600 to 200 and gave the Allies convoys dropping additional AV support into the pools (like the Britsh Cape Town convoys). Too bad that this won't work as intended.

I would like a system with production on for weapons and asymmetric build rates for support devices.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 12/22/2012 10:02:55 AM >

_____________________________

Carpe Cerevisiam



WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to michaelm)
Post #: 11
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/22/2012 10:38:11 AM   
Puhis


Posts: 1627
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Japan have to produce what they need. One AV support squad cost 60 HI points (1 armament point cost 6 HI points), so rebuilding basic Airfield battalion's AV support cost 1440 Hi points. IMO that is a significant cost.

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 12
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/22/2012 10:55:30 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2528
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
Status: offline 		It is, but it does not take into account the limited pool of skilled manpower. Furthermore, many players manage to stockpile hundred thousands or even millions of HI points by 1944. Thus Japan can produce AV support pracxtically at will and does not face the historic shortage of skilled mechanics - at least until the Allies get within boming range of the HI and HI reserves dwindle.

There are many tales of Allies capturing Japanese airfields with many planes grounded with minor damage. To quote from the The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia (which echoes Bergerud): "The Japanese, in particular, were so short of skilled mechanics that damaged aircraft in the South Pacific were often abandoned, while other repairs and maintenance required that the aircraft be flown as far back as Formosa, where there was a major aircraft maintenance facility." Also see http://www.historynet.com/japans-fatally-flawed-air-forces-in-world-war-ii-2.htm

Oh, and this is a JFB speaking!


< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 12/22/2012 11:05:46 AM >

_____________________________

Carpe Cerevisiam



WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 13
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/22/2012 12:35:21 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1627
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		You can always increase load cost of AV support so that one squad cost more, reduce the number of possible AV support squads, significantly reduce airfield sizes all over the map etc.

Anyway, pretty much everything in this game is "too easy". IMO trying to "fix" just one detail that might be "wrong" make no sense. The big picture is that the game is well balanced with all the easiness...

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 14
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/22/2012 1:03:34 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2528
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
Status: offline 		Well, not going to enter a pee contest . Agree that game overall is "too easy". Reducing AF size I have already applied, your other solutions have undesired side effects. My proposal for the support devices is just one detail of a number of other ideas to make the game "less easy" overall - see modding subforum. Anyway, we can always agree to disagree. After all, it is neither me nor you who is going to decide about code changes...

_____________________________

Carpe Cerevisiam



WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 15
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/22/2012 2:48:06 PM   
PaxMondo


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Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Japan have to produce what they need. One AV support squad cost 60 HI points (1 armament point cost 6 HI points), so rebuilding basic Airfield battalion's AV support cost 1440 Hi points. IMO that is a significant cost.

+1

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 16
RE: Japan - Do some devices not show up in Pool Totals? - 12/23/2012 11:42:13 PM   
Kull


Posts: 1001
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

The devices 250-255 are special ones which do have rates for Allied, but not Japan - even though device is shared there is only one build rate defined for a side.

I'll suppress the build rate if not applicable to ease confusion for the special devices.


Thanks, that will DEFINITELY reduce the "head scratching" - especially for newer Japanese players.


_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to michaelm)
Post #: 17
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