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Lvov opening is a soviet trap

 
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Lvov opening is a soviet trap - 12/19/2012 8:37:44 PM   
vandev

 

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Yes, I said soviet trap. I believe the Axis is making a huge mistake by using the Lvov opening. Why you might ask? Diverting panzers from AGC fatally weakens the drive to the landbridge. This allows the soviets to create a line that is strong enough not to be heavily attacked until infantry arrives in force. A good/lucky soviet can stand in the early part of the landbridge/dniepr river till his turn 5. The lack of a vigorous drive to the landbridge allows the Soviet to maximize his leningrad defenses. The terrain in the North is ideal for defense so long as the soviet can stack 2 or 3 units in certain places. This requires alot of units and a quiet center allows for that. A strong lvov opening encourages the soviet to simply run to the dnieper and preserve what is left of his army. Lastly, the lvov opening ends up putting more panzers in the south where the damage they can inflict is limited if the Soviet runs.

See the opening in the south in the "Sledgehammer AAR." The rail hex near tarnopool is broken to prevent rail access to the area. 17th army attacks toward Lvov routing all the soviets in the way. The soviet mechanized/tank corp is surrounded and another pocket near Rovno is formed. The soviet units to the far west end up isolated because they are forced to trace supply through mountain hexes and that results in being more then 100 mp's from the rail head. Only the units near the romainen border are free to move, but they cannot move far enough to escape. However, the possibility of escape for these units may entice the soviets to fight forward. You inflict all the damage of the lvov opening for lesser force commitment and have a greater chance to induce a soviet forward defense. Most important, this allows a strong center which is key in my view to the entire campaign.
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RE: Lvov opening is a soviet trap - 12/19/2012 10:11:43 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vandev

Yes, I said soviet trap. I believe the Axis is making a huge mistake by using the Lvov opening. Why you might ask? Diverting panzers from AGC fatally weakens the drive to the landbridge. This allows the soviets to create a line that is strong enough not to be heavily attacked until infantry arrives in force. A good/lucky soviet can stand in the early part of the landbridge/dniepr river till his turn 5. The lack of a vigorous drive to the landbridge allows the Soviet to maximize his leningrad defenses. The terrain in the North is ideal for defense so long as the soviet can stack 2 or 3 units in certain places. This requires alot of units and a quiet center allows for that. A strong lvov opening encourages the soviet to simply run to the dnieper and preserve what is left of his army. Lastly, the lvov opening ends up putting more panzers in the south where the damage they can inflict is limited if the Soviet runs.

See the opening in the south in the "Sledgehammer AAR." The rail hex near tarnopool is broken to prevent rail access to the area. 17th army attacks toward Lvov routing all the soviets in the way. The soviet mechanized/tank corp is surrounded and another pocket near Rovno is formed. The soviet units to the far west end up isolated because they are forced to trace supply through mountain hexes and that results in being more then 100 mp's from the rail head. Only the units near the romainen border are free to move, but they cannot move far enough to escape. However, the possibility of escape for these units may entice the soviets to fight forward. You inflict all the damage of the lvov opening for lesser force commitment and have a greater chance to induce a soviet forward defense. Most important, this allows a strong center which is key in my view to the entire campaign.


Your out of gas at land bridge. You can have 4 to 6 divisions out of gas or 12.

No gas no drive east. Just more tanks sitting around usless

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/19/2012 10:12:28 PM >


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RE: Lvov opening is a soviet trap - 12/19/2012 10:44:48 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Your out of gas at land bridge. You can have 4 to 6 divisions out of gas or 12.

No gas no drive east. Just more tanks sitting around usless


I think also most Soviet players these days don't defend the landbridge that heavily - its total pocket bait (I know from painful experience). Better to leave weak units there to attrit the low gas panzers and keep the primary defense further back.

(in reply to Pelton)
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RE: Lvov opening is a soviet trap - 12/19/2012 11:51:30 PM   
Klydon


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Basically what both Pelton and hfarrish said.

The Germans usually have to pause at the land bridge anyway waiting for infantry and for the panzers to gasp for some gas. Russians piling in are indeed pocket bait, even with a reduced panzer force for AGC.

(in reply to hfarrish)
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RE: Lvov opening is a soviet trap - 12/20/2012 1:12:43 AM   
Flaviusx


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It is impossible to mount a good defense of the landbridge and hold on to Leningrad at the same time. One or the other. You simply do not have the forces to do both.

I judge a strong defense of Leningrad more important. There is nothing particularly important about the landbridge. Whereas the early fall of Leningrad releases PG4 for operations elsewhere and ultimately makes it harder to hold Moscow. The defense of Moscow, in other words, doesn't begin in Smolensk...it starts at Pskov.



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RE: Lvov opening is a soviet trap - 12/20/2012 3:09:30 PM   
vandev

 

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I will admit to being alittle tongue in cheek, but there is the kernel of truth in my observation. I agree that low gas panzers cannot really pocket well and can easily expose themselves to a bear hug if they are not careful about position. However, a 20-24 mp panzer can move 2 to 4 or more hexes and launch a deliberate attack. 8+ panzers doing this is serious damage. I believe people underestimate the damage this causes because the soviet is not seeing pockets. My personal experience is that when the soviet thinks the real defense of moscow begins his army is weaker as many units have lost deliberate attacks (2k casualties and morale loss per attack). And the Moscow grind consumes his army. And it all started in the landbridge with panzer deliberate attacks. And these attacks do not hurt the panzers as you need to rest them anyway at some point.

Secondly, and just as importantly real attrition in the center directly helps the drive on Leningrad. The soviet in the first 5 to 6 turns needs to make choices and does not have the resources to support all those choices.

In conclusion, because people think this is unwise and do not see the danger as it takes awhile to really develop, the danger hits them when it turns out the army defending in the center is much more brittle then assumed.

Vandev

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RE: Lvov opening is a soviet trap - 12/20/2012 10:10:38 PM   
Klydon


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Not sure what version you are basing your observations/opinions on, but given the movement attrition the panzer divisions are taking these days, deliberate attacks (and attacks in general really) are probably being held to a minimum to help preserve material in the panzer divisions. You make several deliberate attacks, you are going to find yourself short of panzers in fairly short order.

(in reply to vandev)
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