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RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix?

 
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RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/18/2012 9:30:24 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea


Also factories should not be able to be broken down in a week, it takes much longer to break down and move equipment especially if transportation is limited.



They had no problem doing it. Even under fire. Somehwere on these boards is info on the Soviet rail capacity.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 31
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/18/2012 11:01:17 PM   
turtlefang

 

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I have to agree strongly with Aurelian on the evacuation issue. I have over 30 years experience in logistics (sea, land, air) including moving factories and big equipment in combat/near combat/emergency situations. Despite what people think, moving factories isn't that hard and can be done very quickly if you have the manpower or the equipment and the willingness to do whatever you have to do - and your near a rail line or major port.

And I have spent nearly 20 years studing the WW2 Soviet rail systems, rail road stock, and engines. If anything, I would estimate that the rail capacity in WITE is under estimated rather than over estimated. The Soviets didn't have sophisticated signaling equipment but they more than made up for it with manpower and runners. Sounds very basic, but they had the manpower and knew how to use it.

People think the Soviets were not very advanced handling logistics. They were - given what they had to use.

Here's an example. The Soviets chose to use the wide rail guage for a strategic reason - it didn't mix with the European narrow guage. But, the wide guage also maximized the Soviet resources. Soviets were short on light metal and steel - all the rolling stock was made out of wood - a plentiful and non-strategic resource. By making the floor wider, it increased the decreased the car weight and increased the bulk out capacity of cars. Which increased the rail efficiency. And while Soviet rolling stock couldn't carry as heavy a weight as Western European rolling stock, they were actually more efficient about 80% of the time. Why? Rail road cars bulk out (have too much stuff in them that doesn't weight enough) before they weight out. This was even more true before the "container" cars of the sixties were developed.

It also allowed for wider doors for easier loading and unloading. And the cars were lighter weight than thier European counter parts which mean that the rails were lighter grade steel/iron and didn't required as well developed rail beds.

And so on and so on - I can bore you with this stuff for hours.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 32
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/18/2012 11:23:15 PM   
Aurelian

 

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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2928392&mpage=1&key=railroads�

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Post #: 33
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/18/2012 11:33:53 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwduquette1

It currently costs too many movement points for Soviet armor to launch deliberate attacks in 1941. There's a ton of big Soviet Mech units in the south that could potentially play havoc with the overextended German Lvov pincers, and German regimental breakdown units. But without the ability to mass high movement point units in deliberate attacks the Soviet player is left with the option to either run-away and leave the Lvov pocket to its eventual fate, or launch a series of ineffective piecemeal hasty assaults against the German cordon. And invariably sticking around to counterattack the German Cordon, just means more Red units get encircled on turns 2 & 3.


That's one of the things I'm trying to explore: increasing Soviet Tank Division MP's to the max. From what I gather it should be possible for them to retain movement capability in the 20-25 MP's range. In the editor, I noticed that one can cap the Max MP's of a unit. I've been removing the caps for Soviet Tank and Motorized Divisions, and I see that the maximum MP's they can achieve are precisely 25. It's quite narrow, but should be sufficient to move a few hexes through clear terrain and launch a counterattack.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwduquette1

It also costs soviet units too many movement points to move back into hexes that were moved thru by Axis units. I think hex "possession" should have three possible states. Friendly Controlled -- Enemy Controlled -- AND CONTESTED. Contested hexes include any Friendly hexes that were moved thru during the opposing players movement phase by enemy units. Movement penalties for moving thru "contested" hexes should not be nearly as steep as movement penalties when passing thru "Enemy hexes. Contested hexes become Friendly Controlled\Enemy Controlled in the next friendly movement phase rather than the current system in which hex control switches during the enemy players movement phase.


Here I am not sure I agree with you. Actually I think the hex ownership system is quite neat and caters for a much more dynamic gameplay, than more traditional two impulse (combat and breakthrough) systems. Note that hexes being turned during the phasing player turn are more expensive to travel.

On the other hand there's quite a big hole in the rules: hex ownership changes during Logistic Phase should not consider only ZOC's, but also who's got a combat unit closer to a hex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwduquette1
And I also agree with some of the other posters above that the first turn surprise rules also act to limit Soviet counterattack options in the South during the first turn. Draw a demarcation line thru the Pripet Marshes. Soviet units North of the line get hit with the 1st Turn surprise rules -- Soviet units south of the line don't get penalized by the first turn surprise rules.


I think that lowering Western Front leader ratings, experience and morale levels of Soviet units, we could totally do away with First Turn Surprise rules (including the reduced costs to enter enemy hexes) and make sure that the Panzers are banging on Minsk doors by the end of turn 1.

(in reply to jwduquette1)
Post #: 34
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/18/2012 11:56:29 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I could be very wrong here, someone please point me in the right direction if so.

I'm a plankowner with the game but have litteraly hours on the Soviet side. The amount of evacuations not only from ports under enemy air cover without the threat of troop laden ships getting sunk and the sheer amount of troops the Soviets are able to rail out are just as big a problem if not more so than the LVOV pocket. Atleast the GHC has to make a strategic choice to invest assets at costs elsewhere.

Also factories should not be able to be broken down in a week, it takes much longer to break down and move equipment especially if transportation is limited.



Any criticism that something is better for the Soviet in WitE than it was for the real Red Army is dismissed by the overwhelming majority of Soviet-loving designers and playtesters because their bias is transparent; they cannot admit it for themselves, and they will respond to my post by bullying me.

The design is heavily biased in favor of the Soviet player being able to make a fantastical Red Army that suffers no negative impact from it's terrible experience, doctrine, strategic goals, and organization in 1941/1942. Get used to it. It's not changing.

Lvov is about the only thing they've left Germany where Germany can do better than historical.

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 12/18/2012 11:58:09 PM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 2:39:02 AM   
turtlefang

 

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heliodorus04 -

On this subject, you are utterly clueless and don't have any idea of what your talking about.

As I stated above, I have over 30 years experience doing EXACTLY this sort of thing in combat/near combat/emergency situations. Moving a factory in week as long as you have the manpower or the tools or both can be done.

Assuming the critical personal have been evacuated, and you have the rail or sea capacity without having to worry about bulking out, you dismantle the critical machine tools and parts and start loading. You have to make sure that you load in reverse order, pack the tools correctly, and get the marshalling yards/loading areas/docks clears as soon as the vessel or train bulked out. It is not container or vessel efficient - but that what your trading off - speed versus packing efficiency.

I've moved complete oil/heavy manufacturing/mining facilities/assemby plants factories in less than five days. Its doable. I've done it. In 3rd world countries. Under gun fire. Under near flood conditions. Under fire storm conditions. With minimal heavy equipment or loading equipment. Manpower can replace heavy equipment if that's all you have. Its not fun, its not easy, and its damn dangerous for the people doing the heavy work.

And it has nothing to do with being a Russian fanboy. It has to do with reality.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 36
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 3:32:25 AM   
Aurelian

 

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Part of the problem is that because the Germans/Americans/whatever couldn't do it, with all their 'sophistication", then the "primitive" Russians shouldn't be able to either.

But history shows they did.

(in reply to turtlefang)
Post #: 37
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 4:03:29 AM   
LiquidSky


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It took all of a day (or two) for the order to Relocate the factories went out from Moscow. The number of people involved in the actual bureaucracy/work numbered (if not 100,000) at least in the tens of thousands of people. Despite the textbook rapid advance of the Germans, the Russians managed to rail practically every factory of note that was in the way of the German advance. Even Stalingrad was fixed to be moved, before Stalin kyboshed it in the hopes it would increase Russian fighting spirit.

Another thing was the Russians had no regard for proper safety procedures. They would commonly overload the rail transport lift far more then what it was rated for.

In contrast the Germans had exactly what units who's job it was to 'destroy' captured factories? What orders, or bureaucracy? What german thought it even important to attack Russian production, if ever? I laugh when I see a single regiment 'destroy' a large industrial base just by spending half a day's movement in the hex. Or preventing its movement by being 10 km away in the adjacent hex.

But this is rather off the topic.

The real problem of the Lvov topic is the Germans are allowed to move a full weeks worth of movement in a 3 day period (for surprise) without any reaction whatsoever from a Russian who in reality did an awful lot of reacting. It doesn't take any real intelligence to play the Germans when your opponent is forced to tell you exactly where your units are, and will not move any of them until you are completely finished doing your one week of attacks/movement.

Strangely, I think that Pelton has a good enough fix. Knowing that the Russians will have full movement/supply, you will not do anything crazy with the Germans. Of course it wont prevent the Russians from running away (and would make it easier, in fact) and there will be Russians who try to make a stand to buy time. Might even prompt the Germans to swing two panzer corps around the swamp to take Kiev from the rear. *gasp*

< Message edited by LiquidSky -- 12/19/2012 4:04:12 AM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 38
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 8:57:14 AM   
AFV


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Bletchly- I am very interested in the scenario you are working on. You are the only one that has offered a practical solution. The devs are not going to fix this issue(this is not a shot at them)- they have more on their plate, and their priorities are focused elsewhere.

I would be more than happy to test your scenario, and give you feedback (good, bad or ugly).

(in reply to LiquidSky)
Post #: 39
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 3:48:18 PM   
heliodorus04


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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

heliodorus04 -

On this subject, you are utterly clueless and don't have any idea of what your talking about.

As I stated above, I have over 30 years experience doing EXACTLY this sort of thing in combat/near combat/emergency situations. Moving a factory in week as long as you have the manpower or the tools or both can be done.

Assuming the critical personal have been evacuated, and you have the rail or sea capacity without having to worry about bulking out, you dismantle the critical machine tools and parts and start loading. You have to make sure that you load in reverse order, pack the tools correctly, and get the marshalling yards/loading areas/docks clears as soon as the vessel or train bulked out. It is not container or vessel efficient - but that what your trading off - speed versus packing efficiency.

I've moved complete oil/heavy manufacturing/mining facilities/assemby plants factories in less than five days. Its doable. I've done it. In 3rd world countries. Under gun fire. Under near flood conditions. Under fire storm conditions. With minimal heavy equipment or loading equipment. Manpower can replace heavy equipment if that's all you have. Its not fun, its not easy, and its damn dangerous for the people doing the heavy work.

And it has nothing to do with being a Russian fanboy. It has to do with reality.


Reading comprehension FAIL!

I might be clueless, if I said a darn thing about factory movement. Find me the word 'factory' in my post. Then when you cannot, do the decent thing and apologize for yet another hystrionic post claiming I know nothing...

< Message edited by heliodorus04 -- 12/19/2012 3:49:35 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 6:19:09 PM   
Klydon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

heliodorus04 -

On this subject, you are utterly clueless and don't have any idea of what your talking about.

As I stated above, I have over 30 years experience doing EXACTLY this sort of thing in combat/near combat/emergency situations. Moving a factory in week as long as you have the manpower or the tools or both can be done.

Assuming the critical personal have been evacuated, and you have the rail or sea capacity without having to worry about bulking out, you dismantle the critical machine tools and parts and start loading. You have to make sure that you load in reverse order, pack the tools correctly, and get the marshalling yards/loading areas/docks clears as soon as the vessel or train bulked out. It is not container or vessel efficient - but that what your trading off - speed versus packing efficiency.

I've moved complete oil/heavy manufacturing/mining facilities/assemby plants factories in less than five days. Its doable. I've done it. In 3rd world countries. Under gun fire. Under near flood conditions. Under fire storm conditions. With minimal heavy equipment or loading equipment. Manpower can replace heavy equipment if that's all you have. Its not fun, its not easy, and its damn dangerous for the people doing the heavy work.

And it has nothing to do with being a Russian fanboy. It has to do with reality.


Reading comprehension FAIL!

I might be clueless, if I said a darn thing about factory movement. Find me the word 'factory' in my post. Then when you cannot, do the decent thing and apologize for yet another hystrionic post claiming I know nothing...


Looks like to me that Sulusea made the remark about being able to break down the factories in a week being unrealistic. His comments happen to all be caught in Helidrous04's response.

For the record, a lot of it depends on what type of equipment you are talking about when it comes to moving stuff. Most any machine shop stuff from that era is not huge and can easily be manhandled in a hurry. A lot of factories in that time were simply metal or masonry buildings built to keep the elements at bay and open floor spaces filled with relatively small equipment by today's standards. (Look at some of the early assembly line pictures of a Ford plant for some comparision).

Moving stuff like steel plant furnaces is another matter I would think, although part of that depends on how they are constructed as well and on that, I don't know a lot about the equipment in use back in that time. It could have been fairly modular and easy to take apart into chunks.

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 41
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 9:30:34 PM   
turtlefang

 

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I could be very wrong here, someone please point me in the right direction if so.

I'm a plankowner with the game but have litteraly hours on the Soviet side. The amount of evacuations not only from ports under enemy air cover without the threat of troop laden ships getting sunk and the sheer amount of troops the Soviets are able to rail out are just as big a problem if not more so than the LVOV pocket. Atleast the GHC has to make a strategic choice to invest assets at costs elsewhere.

Also factories should not be able to be broken down in a week, it takes much longer to break down and move equipment especially if transportation is limited.


From your post. Your selected quote. FACTORIES SHOULd NOT BE BROKEN DOWN IN A WEEK. At least learn to read what you quote. If you don't agree with it, then don't quote it and support the position.

And since I did find the quote in your post, I do expect an apology from you for your comment.


(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 42
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 10:01:50 PM   
turtlefang

 

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The most difficult thing to move in WWII in the Soviet Union would probably be an oxgen blast furnance. Based on the specs that I have seen on Russian blast furnances of the time, including the Tula furnance that was the largest one in Russia when it was built in 1946 (and I have toured), they wouldn't be that hard to move.

Average size would run about 400 to 600 metric tons and that includes masonary work. And due to the size, the break down should be in approximately 32 pieces based on the construction specs.

After that, its primarily pipes and bracings.

The single biggest issue would be making sure that all the smelting material had been removed from the furnance and pipes. If the smelting material was still there, cooled and harden, its a throw away and simply can be repaired.

Soviet factories in the early 40s, heck, even in the mid to late 90s as I have visited them, aren't in the same weight class as many of the US factories were in late WWII. And none of those are in the weight class that some plants were in the 1960-80s; however, plants today are actually downsizing signifigantly now. The day of the super-giant plant is dead. (There are a couple of exceptions, primarily shipbuilding).

And the fact is that the larger the factory, in general, the more assemby is done on site than actual heavy manufacturing. And assemby stuff is petty much pick up and pack unless it requires a sterile enviroment. Its more machine shop type items.

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 43
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 10:18:06 PM   
Pelton

 

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The only real issue I see would be the power to power the plants once they were moved.

Generally speaking the local power grids will only have and extra 10% of generation on hand. SHC was moving allot of factories 100"s of miles to new regions.

Where did all the extra power generation come from?

With out power all that equipment is usless iron.

It takes 18 months to build a new power generation plant, I am guessing during war 6 months tops if everything is on hand.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/19/2012 10:20:09 PM >


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RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 11:41:25 PM   
turtlefang

 

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You actually raise two very good issues. One implied and the other explicit.

The implied one is how long does it take to put the factory back together once it gets to its destination? And that really varies on how well prepared the site is in advance of the move. With a heavy manufacturing facility, like a blast furnance, you'll looking at - best case - a month or two. You can get some production early but its not going to be consistent and probably not very good as far as quality control goes.

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Post #: 45
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/19/2012 11:47:56 PM   
Klydon


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Pelton's point is valid, but it also triggers something for me that says I think the Russians overbuilt their power grid in the Urals in terms of capacity since they were actively trying to industrialize the region both for strategic reasons and also because the raw materials were right there to work with, making it far more efficient.

We are also talking stuff designed in the 20's and 30's and it just didn't have the power requirements we think of today. A lot of that stuff was all manual work (not a issue for Russia). Steel furnaces didn't run on electric then.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 46
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/20/2012 12:05:33 AM   
turtlefang

 

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Sorry, hit the wrong key before I finished.

The power grid the second issue. A powerplant, built from scratch and with signifigant output - six months is a good estimate. You might get away with in four months if you built it right next to the factory and didn't have to set up much in a distribution network (transmission wires, substations, etc..).

But, it appears that the Soviets overbuilt thier electrical generation facilities in the Urals in the 30s "in preparation for a potential evacuation". If I remember right - and I'm traveling right now - they overbuilt the generation facilities by enough that they could have supplied enough electricity to power 50% more industry than they actually moved. I have a paper on my home computer that I will look up and cite if I remember when I get home after Christmas.

I'm not actually sure how intentional this was. The Soviet post war work and papers all positions it as preparation in case of invasion. Not sure that I buy it but a lot of stuff came to light in the 90s on Soviet emergency industry evacuation prep. So maybe so. However, that means they expected a war starting in 1934 and started preping for evacuation - while building industry in the Don basin. Logically, not sure I buy it but they did build out the grid in the Urals.

The US, BTW, did the same thing. The Hoover Dam, all the TVA electrical dam projects, the Miss/Mo electrical build outs in the 30s as part of the alphabet soup is one of the unsung heros of the war. If the US had not built these out in the 30s - when we really had no use for that much electricity - the US war production expansion would have been a lot slower and lot longer. Many of these were more flood control projects and the electrical part was an incremental add on cost (its not chump change, but its not that big an add on compared to cost of building the dam without it). As an example, when built, the Hoover Dam by itself, provide 10-14% of all the electricity generated in the US. And up to WWII, it underran capacity by nearly 70%. Starting in late 42, the dam ran at 100% plus capacity for the rest of the war.

I wonder if the same thing happened in the Soviet Union as much of the initial electrical capacity came from potentially water control type projects.

In any case, your right. Without the power grid, it is just junk. In this case, the Soviets did have the power - either through dumb luck or brilliant planning.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 47
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/20/2012 9:34:05 AM   
janh

 

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I guess it is also the wrong perception to assume that they had to move every bit and piece of a factory on evacuation? I suppose key items would be the large workshop tools, and more product-specific things, while there are items that can be built faster or more resource-efficient from scratch in the Urals than dis- and reassembled?

Taking a facility down is only one step. And given the haste, I'd guess it wasn't done very orderly, not as you'd imagine a peace-time move. Putting it back together was probably a lot tougher as it took them much longer to get the factories up to speed again. Yet with the Russian manpower at hand, it apparently was doable, and doable truly surprisingly well. At least the Wehrmacht guys were truly surprised.

On a side note, apparently the Russians made really good tools during WW2. Two years ago I visited a machine shop in a Polish University, and they proudly presented WW2 era Russian drilling, cutting, bending and what not kind of tools. Tools sufficient to rebuilt an entire tank. Not digital CnC and fancy stuff, but many of the guys there wouldn't have discarded the Russian tools for one anyway. The Russians must have had the steel machining and industry side well under control back then.

(in reply to turtlefang)
Post #: 48
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/20/2012 2:43:05 PM   
turtlefang

 

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You usually take everything you can that not "common" such as tables, chairs, and stuff - although if you have time and space, you strip everything.

Putting it back together, as I noted earlier, takes much longer than taking it apart. First priority always the precision equipment, then specialized equipment, tools, general machine shop stuff, supporting equipment, then everything else.

But it never goes like it suppose to. Some of the reasons are:

1)Like it or not, screws, bolts, rivets - all that stuff is actually important but no one thinks about most of the time. But lots of these break, get lost, mismatched, or just plain won't work. And in the case of big equipment, many times, these are custom not off the shelf stock. So they have to be remade from scratch unless the moldings were at the factory. The can really put a time delay on putting stuff back together - can't finish A so I can't start B as A has to be finished now what do I do with C and so on.

2)While operationally, the Russian could do well with primitive rr signal equipment (manpower=communications), based on my research, the lack of long range communication equipment really hurt them here. A lot of the trains ended up in the wrong place, over 300 of the smaller factories disappeared (read: didn't get to where they were suppose to but end up used by somebody else), and you have to sort stuff out, especially if its loaded in haste. Now, exactly where did this pipe go and what did it support? Interesting enough, in many cases the engineers are not as critical on this stuff as the maintenance staff. And pictures really really help.

3)Critical personal and critical equipment don't always match up. And, I suspect, in a large scale evacuation, this happened frequently, and its hard to put them back together. Especially if your not properly labeling things - what? did I hear cannon fire? just throw everything on the train and get out of here!

4) Last, the work conditions for the factory personal were terrible in the first winter based on the reports I reviewed. Tents, limited food, limited firewood, limited medical support, lighting was in very short supply, and so on. Several of the reports I read was that lighting - due to the lack of lack light bulbs and light bulb manufacturing equipment (not regarded as a top priority initially), delayed the "put it back together" work.

The Russian's evacuated the military installations, and did a very good job considering, but they paid a heavy price in people. And production. Like it or not, the lack of change in major upgrades to tanks was probably driven as much by the evacuation as by a strategic decision. It really hard to upgrade facilities when your rebuilding them in a hurry.

Don't know if any western country would have been willing to pay the human price.

(in reply to janh)
Post #: 49
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/20/2012 5:19:51 PM   
Sorta

 

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So what is the latest on the Lvov pocket fix/ideas?

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RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/28/2012 8:28:27 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

I could be very wrong here, someone please point me in the right direction if so.

I'm a plankowner with the game but have litteraly hours on the Soviet side. The amount of evacuations not only from ports under enemy air cover without the threat of troop laden ships getting sunk and the sheer amount of troops the Soviets are able to rail out are just as big a problem if not more so than the LVOV pocket. Atleast the GHC has to make a strategic choice to invest assets at costs elsewhere.

Also factories should not be able to be broken down in a week, it takes much longer to break down and move equipment especially if transportation is limited.


From your post. Your selected quote. FACTORIES SHOULd NOT BE BROKEN DOWN IN A WEEK. At least learn to read what you quote. If you don't agree with it, then don't quote it and support the position.

And since I did find the quote in your post, I do expect an apology from you for your comment.




Hi Turtlefang, I don't know where you're going with this? Are you stating I owe you an apology? Thanks!

_____________________________


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Post #: 51
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/28/2012 9:09:45 PM   
SuluSea


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quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

You usually take everything you can that not "common" such as tables, chairs, and stuff - although if you have time and space, you strip everything.

Putting it back together, as I noted earlier, takes much longer than taking it apart. First priority always the precision equipment, then specialized equipment, tools, general machine shop stuff, supporting equipment, then everything else.

But it never goes like it suppose to. Some of the reasons are:

1)Like it or not, screws, bolts, rivets - all that stuff is actually important but no one thinks about most of the time. But lots of these break, get lost, mismatched, or just plain won't work. And in the case of big equipment, many times, these are custom not off the shelf stock. So they have to be remade from scratch unless the moldings were at the factory. The can really put a time delay on putting stuff back together - can't finish A so I can't start B as A has to be finished now what do I do with C and so on.

2)While operationally, the Russian could do well with primitive rr signal equipment (manpower=communications), based on my research, the lack of long range communication equipment really hurt them here. A lot of the trains ended up in the wrong place, over 300 of the smaller factories disappeared (read: didn't get to where they were suppose to but end up used by somebody else), and you have to sort stuff out, especially if its loaded in haste. Now, exactly where did this pipe go and what did it support? Interesting enough, in many cases the engineers are not as critical on this stuff as the maintenance staff. And pictures really really help.

3)Critical personal and critical equipment don't always match up. And, I suspect, in a large scale evacuation, this happened frequently, and its hard to put them back together. Especially if your not properly labeling things - what? did I hear cannon fire? just throw everything on the train and get out of here!

4) Last, the work conditions for the factory personal were terrible in the first winter based on the reports I reviewed. Tents, limited food, limited firewood, limited medical support, lighting was in very short supply, and so on. Several of the reports I read was that lighting - due to the lack of lack light bulbs and light bulb manufacturing equipment (not regarded as a top priority initially), delayed the "put it back together" work.

The Russian's evacuated the military installations, and did a very good job considering, but they paid a heavy price in people. And production. Like it or not, the lack of change in major upgrades to tanks was probably driven as much by the evacuation as by a strategic decision. It really hard to upgrade facilities when your rebuilding them in a hurry.

Don't know if any western country would have been willing to pay the human price.


Superb post . Along my line of thinking but much more eloquent than I could have put it.

I've spent the majority of my adult life in engineering and have seen projects held up because of missing parts, wrong parts and what not and could only imagine issues with plants/ machinery hastily being broken down quickly, under fire in some cases with the threat of death looming over the project by what would probably be less than skilled workers or whomever was in the neighborhood in some cases and thrown on a train, cart , carried or what have you and set up in another location some kind of delay being the norm.


Putting some thought in on this something fair may be a standard delay depending on how many hexes the factory is moved before the factory is up to speed and a die roll for a possible even longer than the quickest time possible.


Sorry Pelton for derailing your thread and since I have your ear, I nbjoy your AARs. Thanks and Happy Holidays!

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 12/28/2012 9:14:09 PM >


_____________________________


”How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!” ~ Samuel Adams

(in reply to turtlefang)
Post #: 52
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/28/2012 9:51:36 PM   
turtlefang

 

Posts: 333
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline
You were quoted by heliodorus04 and I responded to one of his comments below a quote from you. My comment was made at him and his remarks not you. I should had ignored his comment and would have at any other time. Just got annoyed more than I should have.

If anything, I owe you an apology for drawing you into a less than professional exchange.

Sorry for the confusion.

(in reply to SuluSea)
Post #: 53
RE: Possible Lvov pocket fix? - 12/28/2012 10:33:57 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2108
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: turtlefang

You were quoted by heliodorus04 and I responded to one of his comments below a quote from you. My comment was made at him and his remarks not you. I should had ignored his comment and would have at any other time. Just got annoyed more than I should have.

If anything, I owe you an apology for drawing you into a less than professional exchange.

Sorry for the confusion.




Thanks for clarifying Turtlefang. An apology is not neccesary.

Have a great New Year to you and yours and thanks for your interesting contributions atleast the way I see it.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 12/28/2012 10:34:34 PM >


_____________________________


”How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!” ~ Samuel Adams

(in reply to turtlefang)
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