MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Achtung Panzer:Operation Star is an Eastern Front wargame with solid graphics and sprawling battlefields that really emphasize the scope of WWII tank combat. The gameplay is a remarkably realistic turn-based and real-time operational/tactical hybrid wargame that continues the series begun by the acclaimed Achtung Panzer: Kharkov 1943.
Phoenix100
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MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Phoenix100 »

I'm suddenly having great fun trying this game again. The latest series of patches have tuly done wonders. I've been playing Kras Pol and so far it's been very intense, great fun. Love it. It's certainly changed my view about which is better between CM and this. There doesn't actually seem to be a straightforward 'Fire' button here (am I right?) which is certainly an effective way to reduce micromanagement. But better still the firiendly AI seems much more developed than for the CM series. So, for instance, I'm amazed that you can simply select a group of units give them an Attack order and they will put in a coordinated attack. Nothing like that happens in CM, where giving a group order results in the AI slavishly trying to maintain starting positions through to the end.

I have a query about mortars though, to which I haven't found an answer searching through this forum. Can anyone help? Is it possible to get an individual mortar to fire on a specific target? Is it possible to get an individual mortar to fire at all!!?? I don't seem to be able to manage this. I've discovered that if you give an Area Fire order to a mortar group CO then that works effectively (haven't worked out yet if all the firing mortars need good LOS to target or just the CO) - at least, they fire. But the area fire button seems always greyed out for individual mortars. Hence they never seem to fire. They don't seem to do it off their own bat, when the enemy is in range (as suggested somewhere here) - at least I've never seen that. Ditto setting a fire arc - doesn't seem to get them to fire.

Can you use the Priority Target button to get them to fire, somehow? And how on earth does this button work? If I select it then right click on a target nothing at all seems to happen - no aknowledgement of anything having been noted by the engine, I mean. Can you click a list of priority targets? (though, some sign that I had managed to prioritise one would be enough to be going with!)

Is giving a command to fire through their CO the only way to get mortars working, and if so, what happens when the CO unit is killed?
Anyone help?
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wodin
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by wodin »

Clcik on the mortar unit the click on the icon with bombs that seem to be dropping..then click where you want them to land..
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budd
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by budd »

If the mortar has los you can target a unit. Using indirect fire you have to click on the mortars leader unit and click the button with the bomb coming down and plot like artillery.

Guess I should of read your whole post before posting.
Here's all I know , if they have los and not on hold fire they will fire on there own, and you can use the target button to pick targets in los. Never lost my mortar units leader without losing the mortar too so I'm not sure they can indirect fire without a leader. My indirect fire has worked pretty well and they start firing pretty quickly. If there's more to it , Dane will be along to set us straight.
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Phoenix100 »

Thanks, Budd, Wodin. You're right, Budd, I think, that the button with bombs coming down only works for the CO, as I said. And it works well. I can see no way to get individual mortar units to fire though, whether through targetting (with the crosshairs button - Target priority) or letting them open up on their own. At least, mine don't seem to open up on the their own. So, so far, it looks like you can only direct mortar fire (whether as indirect fire or direct [but using the tubes, I mean]) through the CO. Several times I've had the CO knocked out and been left with one unit of three, but unable to use it. Plus I have wanted to place individual mortar units in exposed positions with clear LOS in order to get them to harry and delay an advance, then pull back to safety. But I haven't wanted to risk the leader or other units, so this means placing the unit beyond the leader ring, and then it seems to be unable to do anything. I realise there are many RL stories of soviet officers standing behind their troops and shooting at them to get them to do anything, but just wondered if this was the reality for the game - that mortars can't do much without their CO?
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wodin
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by wodin »

Pheonix with the next patch you'l be able to have the CO well away from danger so that should help due to the wire communications.
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mbar
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by mbar »

My mortar teams fire on their own and run out of ammo. Their default orders have them firing if they have LOS on an enemy. Similarly, artillery units have me a bit confused. Most times I can pick my target and they fire quickly. Some other times though I just can't get them to respond to fire orders and I'm not sure why.
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Dane49 »

Mortars require a certain degree of micro management if you're trying to conserve ammo in this game,otherwise the the mortar crews will blow thru their basic load very quickly.I find this to be both good and bad.

I usually set very short covered arcs for mortars and give them the forbid fire order till a target presents itself worthy of mortar fire.Then I will extend the covered arc to the target area and press the priority target button hold the LMB down and draw a box around the intended victim.

If you don't set short covered arcs or forbid them to fire,they will automatically fire on any enemy units within LOS.

There are other ways and other commands that can be issued to your individual mortars,but this is generally my rule of thumb.I've also experienced my mortars not firing when they show ammo still available(not exactly sure why this happens)I usually try to rationalize this away as the target may have been able to find some way to hide by finding some cover and concealment or dip in the terrain or my mortar crew is distracted for some unknown reason or they are prepping the mortar rounds for the next fire session.Sometimes I like this degree of uncertainty of not being able to micro manage every aspect of the mortar crews target aquisition and firing sequence and other times I find it to be very frustrating.
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wodin
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by wodin »

Dane as you don't play the campaigns you don't need to worry about ammo so much..playing the campaigns you really need to keep an eye on it..a few times I've realised half my force is out of ammo before I even begin!!
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Dane49 »

Hell,even in the quick battles in doesn't take very long to empty the ammo crates.5 minutes max with sustained fire and then the mortar crews become nothing more than regular infantry.

It really doesn't take long to shoot thru a basic load in this game.[X(]
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Phoenix100 »

Very helpful, Dane. Thanks. I'll try a few things. Didn't realise you had to hold LMB and draw a box to get Priority Target to work.
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wodin
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by wodin »

Dane I understand..but imagine if you had that platoon in the next battle!! Seriously ammo is hyper important in Campaign games otherwise you could find yourself with what seems loads of platoons for the next battle..but very few have ammo..or have nearly run out..loads of times I've had what i thought was decent armour..only to find they where down to the last three or four ammo before the fight even starts.

The campiagn game adds a whole new level of strategy.
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Dane49 »

ORIGINAL: wodin

Dane I understand..but imagine if you had that platoon in the next battle!! Seriously ammo is hyper important in Campaign games otherwise you could find yourself with what seems loads of platoons for the next battle..but very few have ammo..or have nearly run out..loads of times I've had what i thought was decent armour..only to find they where down to the last three or four ammo before the fight even starts.

The campiagn game adds a whole new level of strategy.

I understand that wodin.I've played a few of the initial campaigns in the beginning and had a few 1 sided battles where I had no AT assets and spent 2 hours during a battle just trying to hide my units from roving enemy tanks
that I was powerless against and sort of shied away from the campaign battles,not to mention most start during darkness and I'm not a big fan of the darkness battles either.

Another thing is all the campaigns take place around the Kharkov area in Feb.-Mar. 43 (Except the Summer one)and I prefer to simulate battles with this game that don't necessarially take place during this time and this area.

I have the book Zhukovs greatest defeat about the Operation Mars campaign (Nov-Dec 1942)and like to simulate battles from that book,also there is a board game out on the Operation Mars campaign that has quite a few interesting scenarios and an excellent order of battle reference that makes gaming some of the Operation Mars battles from that game very enjoyable.

I find that I enjoy the QBs more for the variety I'm able to add to the game and the replayability aspect of it that is only limited by my imagination.

With that said I would eventually like to design a few mini campaigns for some of the QBs so I can expand the battles to maybe 3-4 turns to allow for a reinforcement aspect for some of my QBs.

GD42 is an interesting game and I think it woould make for an interesting DLC fot this game as well since most of the equipment for the game is already designed.Boardgame Geek has some interesting write ups on this game and a rules book to download for scenarios and order of battle references.
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Phoenix100 »

I sympathise greatly with the running around for 2 hours trying to hide thing, Dane. That was certainly my miserable impression last time I came at this game. Like - what am I meant to do against all this armour? This time round I've managed to find scenarios (Kras Pol is one) where it's not so hopeless. And the night battles are now amazing in terms of tension and confusion, partly due to the beautiful effects of tracer light, which casts amazing, varied shadows as the bullet moves across the landscape. You see all these burning trucks and men and lights going off all over and noise, and there's nothing much you can really do to direct things precisely once it kicks off, and it really feels like a horrible thing, I think, at night, something ghastly and out of control. More like war must be. CM - the closest comparison - seems sterile by comparison, I think.
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Dane49 »

I just recently posted some links over on the Graviteam forum for a 2 volumn series on the GrossDeutschland Division(Can't seem to post links here for some reason).

These links are for depositfiles PDF files.And the downloads are free.Over 1,000 pages.

The volumns cover the GD division from its inception up till the defensive battles in East Prussia Dec.1944.
The 2 volumns are division history diarys and at least 600+ pages are devoted to its involvement in the Russian campaign starting in June of 1941.

There is a wealth of information in these books to keep me busy designing QBs for this game for quite awhile.I have all the DLCs for this game so I am able to use the maps and equipment to pretty much cover all the battles written in these volumns up to about mid 1943.

If you like this game I think you may be interested in the book links I posted on the Graviteam forums also.
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Dane49 »

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Very helpful, Dane. Thanks. I'll try a few things. Didn't realise you had to hold LMB and draw a box to get Priority Target to work.

Yes,after you draw a box around them the targets in LOS should highlight.
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Dane49 »

CM - the closest comparison - seems sterile by comparison, I think.

CM doesn't even come close as far as I'm concerned in simulating the excellent graphical and visual displays that I've come to expect from APOS.

It would be nice if those 2 companies could team up and pool their resources,so we could have a game that incorporates the best of both worlds.

I doubt it would happen though-2 different mind sets and cultures separate these 2 companies apart from each other so much, that if it were to happen, it would most likely end in disaster for both companys.
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wodin
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by wodin »

There is an option for no night battles..Dane as for hiding when out gunned thats why I prefer one hour battles..that way you have a chance of some units surviving if out gunned.
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Phoenix100 »

One reason I can see for making more use of QB is that the Real Time format means you can't keep pace with everything that's going on in bigger battles. I just played my third night Kras Pol battle which took place over 3 distinct sites and whilst i was concentrating on one site, things were happening in the others, naturally. I lost. Though this is less of a problem in APOS than in CM because there's not so much you can do in terms of micromanagement in APOS and anyway the friendly AI does actually engage the enemy and do things. Unlike in CM, where you MUST micromanage. There is a turn based option of course in CM, to ease the job of keeping track, but since a minute is a long time without any control in a fierce fight, and since, imho the CM friendly AI is so minimal and can't really look after itself, still less show aggressive initiative, this doesn't get rid of the issue, just displaces it. At least with the QB option you can keep things small enough to be able to see what's happening. Though, to be honest, not knowing what's going on in APOS really does feel like part of the command problem (mainly because the sprites don't need you to tell them all the time what to do), wheras in CM it's just frustrating, because the sprites will do nothing at all (bar cower, run away, slavishly follow the last order etc) unless you tell them to. I think great work has been done on APOS, especially in terms of having the beginning of a functioning friendly AI. I hope they continue to develop that aspect. Be nicer to see a cooperation between Panther (Command Ops) and APOS, I think, than APOS and CM. Because Command Ops has a great friendly AI, the only decent one out there, I think, in any game at all.
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by Dane49 »

Yes,I would like to see the Operational aspect of this game more fully developed,it still seems like more of an after thought in its approach to simulating both levels of combat in this game.The fact that the operational level is there though is a very pleasing aspect and nice touch,but I assume it was always meant to play a secondary role in the development of this game.Considering that Graviteam is a small company with limited resources I doubt we will see the Operational level expanded on more than what is already presented.Though they do seem to be tweeking some of the Operational characteristics in the next patch.

Graviteam is changing their name soon to Graviteam Tactics.Maybe if they changed the name to Graviteam Operations and Tactics,we might expect more in this area of development.

Right now I don't see a demand from the customer base to expand more on the Operational aspect till all the bugs have been worked out of the tactical area of this game first.Mainly new content for the 3D environment is what is spurring demand and interest,and it may be a very long time if ever before the Operational side is developed in more depth.
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wodin
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

Post by wodin »

The Operational side has seen massive changes over time and for me i's what makes it stand out. I'm not keen on the CM bashing going on as i also love that game aswell..there is easy room for both. The main reason why I would choose CMx2 over AP is WEGO, it also has a more sim like feel to it then APOS. Visually APOS beats CMx2 hands down, though a fully modded CMBN is also a thing of beauty. I think ther eis little to choose from with regards to the AI.

Once CMx2 East front arrives it will be my first choice for tactical east front combat mainly down to the fact of WEGO and the replay.
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