RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/17/2012 12:27:00 PM

wodin

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Dane I disagree..completely..none of us are trained commanders and what a commander can assess on the fly we'd take alot longer to work out..and WEGO gives you that.

This debate has gone on loads and I could give you a massive list of why WEGO is more realistic just like you could why RTS is..at the end of the day it's about evens..they both have the plus and minus.

I hate RTS games..clickfest..awful..plus you miss alot of the action..which is apart of the fun. The only two that are great games are AP and CC2. The rest are mainstream the one who clicks the fastest wins..yawn.

WEGO gives me time to appraise and analyse..and as I said as I'm not a trained commander I need that sort of space to review.

Anyway I will say no more otherwise it will get into a heated argument that I'm not willing to go down. I'd take WEGO everytime over RTS even from a pure enjoyment viewpoint, plus replaying and watching what happened across the map is not unrealistic..what your doing is being the eyes of an AI that can't respond like a human player can..so you get to see everything thats happening and can respond appropriately, the day an AI is good enough to be left alone at one end of the battlefield why I'm looking at the other is the day you can say RTS is more realistic, this hasn't happened yet. In a post I read by someone, can't remember who they where bemoaning that they where missing out on stuff further across the map, well wego or a replay feature will fix that......I'm right for me, your right for yourself..

I'm an old school wargamer. I will say this I don't take to kindly when RTS players start throwing the unrealistic rubbish around..it's a wind up. When really both mechanics have their faults. As soon as you start mentioning realism your going to annoy others who enjoy a different way of playing. Just because it suits you doesn't mean another way of playing is a BIG NO NO. With AI the way it is RTS is as unrealistic as WEGO..simple.

Just enjoy the way you like playing and lay off on others who prefer a different mechanic. The realism debate is silly. I'm not sure how long Dane has been around wargaming forums, but nothing can cause a flame war better than the wego RTS realism debate thats raged on many forums...and never has a conclusion..thankfully CMx2 has both to suit both player types. I'd never openly moan to RTS players about a game being RTS and unrealistic and a big no no. I'd just say I prefer WEGO and would always choose that over RTS.

< Message edited by wodin -- 12/17/2012 12:44:48 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/17/2012 12:42:33 PM

phoenix

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Well, it needn't be heated, Wodin. It's only about a game, surely? But - just curious - what's the problem with the pause button in RTS? Does that not allow you to stop it whenever you want and think as long as you want? You miss out on the playback, of course, which is, for me, the truly excellent thing about wego - you can't see everything happening at the time, but at least you can work out afterwards what happened. But I've often wondered why this isn't incorporated into RTS. There is a camera button in APOS, I note, but I'm not sure what it's for.

I see your point about realism precisely though, Wodin. It's none of it realistic full stop. But if you assess which mode gives the info that the people on the ground who must command would have, then some kind of recording mode is essential to simulate that (as you can't be everywhere at once, but you are required to act the part not just of senior commander, but section leader too, for each section, and in reality they would have seen a lot more than you, so you need - for it to be realistic, some way of being given all the informartion all those leaders would have obtained from their ground level - certainly in CM the role you 'assume' is the role of each and every commander on the field, from highest to low. It's probably the same in APOS, though I've found myself able to play at, say, platoon leader level (1 command to 3 sections, say - let the AI do the rest) I'm quite sure Dane is right in saying everything would work better if I actually took on the role of every single commander on the field and micromanaged it.)

For any of these games to be a realistic simulation of what a higher level commander does (as Command Ops is at a diff level) then the friendly AI in particular would have to make the subordinate leaders capable of assessing info that they have (and you don't, because you aren't there, where they are) and forming plans as a consequence, good plans. But that doesn't happen anywhere except Command Ops. My dream game would be APOS with Command Ops AI (or CM with Command Ops AI - no diff there). So you give orders at platoon level, maybe, and then the AI develops attack plans using all the info and all the assets, designating a suppression section, a flanking section, whatever. Interestingly, i don't think my dream game is some kind of impossibility. It's just Command Ops at the tactical level with graphics. It's definitely do-able, I assume. It's just nobody is doing it, or they're doing different things in different companies etc.

Wish I was Bill Gates (well, no - wish I had his money) then I'd commission Panther to do it.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 12/17/2012 12:45:54 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/17/2012 12:46:55 PM

phoenix

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Ah. Whilst I was typing all that you edited your message to already cover it all!!

Hope I didn't tread on your sensibilities. They are - I see from your post - somewhat higher than mine when talking about games. No offence intended.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 12/17/2012 12:49:15 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/17/2012 12:59:32 PM

wodin

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I agree Command OPS at a lower level would be cool. Tigers Unleashed is far more realisitic in many areas than either APOS or CMx2, but only very few will actually enjoy it because of how realistic it is modelling FoW at the commander level..you no longer have a game as such but a lesson in fog of war and not knowing what the hell is happening anywhere until 5 mins or longer later...

I do have a game idea mulling around where your at a high commander level..where reports come in through runners and the radio that you analyse then send out the order, you have to work out where your doing well and who needs help purely by messengers and radio reports (when the lines aren't broken)..you then have a map that updates only with your current knowledge through these reports. Now the reports soemtimes will be short and brief..other times intense and full of panic..your constantly making decisions on when reports come in..some will just be sound reports..hearing intense fire at a certain point..other times you get no reports for a couple of hours..not knowing what the hell is happening..sending out runners etc..other times you'll have loads of reports coming through. Underneath the game the war is playing out with forces following their orders or getting held up and being wiped out..you have to decide when to reinforce..whether you should sop pushing on the left and concentrate on the right..etc etc..You can also go to a units HQ to get a fuller picture on whats going on..but while your gone your out of the command loop!! so though your presence gives the troops of D Coy a moral boost and you can assess their situ better and give orders that will also have a modifier boost because you can explain it better as your face to face, another part of the front could be in deep sh1t sending you runners etc demanding reinforcements or saying they are being pushed back..but you don't know this as your visiting a HQ..when you get back it could be to late!! Alot of the game would be text based..though as I said you will have a map that gets updated with your current knowledge..I think it would work well for a WW1 game..I imagine loads of text files for different situations so the game always throws up something new to respond to..each message would have say five different answers you can give..each answer will have some sort of effect on the battlefield..

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Post #: 34

RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/17/2012 1:01:20 PM

wodin

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Phoenix..I always edited my posts I'm a nightmare for it...the RTS\WEGO debate has raged on that much over the years that the mere hint of it drive me nuts...I just think there is no need to go into it as both sides have plus and minus..it's just silly and can get people worked up.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/18/2012 3:32:44 PM

redmarkus4

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Funny, I was always an APOS fan boy and CM basher but while waiting for some new APOS campaigns to come along (I have played them all several times now) I updated CMBN to version 2.0 and I'm having fun with it. Both games have their strong points, although once some new APOS stuff comes along this is where I will be!

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/18/2012 4:33:30 PM

Dane49

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I have CMBN-not updated though.I mainly play this game because APOS doesn't have Americans in it,plus I like the Panther tank and the cool camo schemes on the vehicles.I like RT only so my battles are usually really small,which is why I don't play CMBN often plus I'm not a big fan of the mechanics in the game and some other things I won't go into on this forum.I'll most likely purchase the model for the Ardennes when it comes out,but I don't have any interest in the Market Garden or East Front Models,especially at the prices they are asking for them.I like RTS so when I discovered APOS I became a true convert and its difficult to get back into the CM series.I'm hoping some other little company will come along and do the same thing to the Western front that APOS has done for the Eastern.

All in all,I find I get a lot more bang for the buck from the APOS series than I do from the CM series.Those guys who purchaed the $5 special from Strat First have know idea what a great deal they got,when compared to other games of this type.

< Message edited by Dane49 -- 12/18/2012 4:52:43 PM >

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/18/2012 10:34:25 PM

redmarkus4

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East front model of CM? Do you mean CM1 or CM2???

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/19/2012 1:45:53 AM

wodin

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CMx2 version 2 is superb..love it. Can't wait for the East front game.

I've been playing CMBN version 2 all day today and yesterday. Love it..the game\sim is a different beats altogether compare d to APOS..I'd say it's defiantly more difficult and you really have to think and think hard as every move counts..

I'm also really looking forward to CMSF 2.

< Message edited by wodin -- 12/19/2012 1:50:57 AM >

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Post #: 39

RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/19/2012 4:09:54 PM

redmarkus4

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I think they are both superb games. Different but superb. We are lucky to have such outstanding titles to entertain us and this time of European peace to play them in :)

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