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MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities

 
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MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/14/2012 10:37:04 AM   
phoenix

 

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I'm suddenly having great fun trying this game again. The latest series of patches have tuly done wonders. I've been playing Kras Pol and so far it's been very intense, great fun. Love it. It's certainly changed my view about which is better between CM and this. There doesn't actually seem to be a straightforward 'Fire' button here (am I right?) which is certainly an effective way to reduce micromanagement. But better still the firiendly AI seems much more developed than for the CM series. So, for instance, I'm amazed that you can simply select a group of units give them an Attack order and they will put in a coordinated attack. Nothing like that happens in CM, where giving a group order results in the AI slavishly trying to maintain starting positions through to the end.

I have a query about mortars though, to which I haven't found an answer searching through this forum. Can anyone help? Is it possible to get an individual mortar to fire on a specific target? Is it possible to get an individual mortar to fire at all!!?? I don't seem to be able to manage this. I've discovered that if you give an Area Fire order to a mortar group CO then that works effectively (haven't worked out yet if all the firing mortars need good LOS to target or just the CO) - at least, they fire. But the area fire button seems always greyed out for individual mortars. Hence they never seem to fire. They don't seem to do it off their own bat, when the enemy is in range (as suggested somewhere here) - at least I've never seen that. Ditto setting a fire arc - doesn't seem to get them to fire.

Can you use the Priority Target button to get them to fire, somehow? And how on earth does this button work? If I select it then right click on a target nothing at all seems to happen - no aknowledgement of anything having been noted by the engine, I mean. Can you click a list of priority targets? (though, some sign that I had managed to prioritise one would be enough to be going with!)

Is giving a command to fire through their CO the only way to get mortars working, and if so, what happens when the CO unit is killed?
Anyone help?
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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/14/2012 12:32:19 PM   
wodin


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Clcik on the mortar unit the click on the icon with bombs that seem to be dropping..then click where you want them to land..

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/14/2012 2:25:32 PM   
**budd**


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If the mortar has los you can target a unit. Using indirect fire you have to click on the mortars leader unit and click the button with the bomb coming down and plot like artillery.

Guess I should of read your whole post before posting.
Here's all I know , if they have los and not on hold fire they will fire on there own, and you can use the target button to pick targets in los. Never lost my mortar units leader without losing the mortar too so I'm not sure they can indirect fire without a leader. My indirect fire has worked pretty well and they start firing pretty quickly. If there's more to it , Dane will be along to set us straight.

< Message edited by **budd** -- 12/14/2012 2:36:53 PM >


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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/14/2012 3:32:22 PM   
phoenix

 

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Thanks, Budd, Wodin. You're right, Budd, I think, that the button with bombs coming down only works for the CO, as I said. And it works well. I can see no way to get individual mortar units to fire though, whether through targetting (with the crosshairs button - Target priority) or letting them open up on their own. At least, mine don't seem to open up on the their own. So, so far, it looks like you can only direct mortar fire (whether as indirect fire or direct [but using the tubes, I mean]) through the CO. Several times I've had the CO knocked out and been left with one unit of three, but unable to use it. Plus I have wanted to place individual mortar units in exposed positions with clear LOS in order to get them to harry and delay an advance, then pull back to safety. But I haven't wanted to risk the leader or other units, so this means placing the unit beyond the leader ring, and then it seems to be unable to do anything. I realise there are many RL stories of soviet officers standing behind their troops and shooting at them to get them to do anything, but just wondered if this was the reality for the game - that mortars can't do much without their CO?

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/14/2012 3:40:48 PM   
wodin


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Pheonix with the next patch you'l be able to have the CO well away from danger so that should help due to the wire communications.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/14/2012 3:51:08 PM   
mbar


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My mortar teams fire on their own and run out of ammo. Their default orders have them firing if they have LOS on an enemy. Similarly, artillery units have me a bit confused. Most times I can pick my target and they fire quickly. Some other times though I just can't get them to respond to fire orders and I'm not sure why.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/14/2012 8:10:21 PM   
Dane49

 

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Mortars require a certain degree of micro management if you're trying to conserve ammo in this game,otherwise the the mortar crews will blow thru their basic load very quickly.I find this to be both good and bad.

I usually set very short covered arcs for mortars and give them the forbid fire order till a target presents itself worthy of mortar fire.Then I will extend the covered arc to the target area and press the priority target button hold the LMB down and draw a box around the intended victim.

If you don't set short covered arcs or forbid them to fire,they will automatically fire on any enemy units within LOS.

There are other ways and other commands that can be issued to your individual mortars,but this is generally my rule of thumb.I've also experienced my mortars not firing when they show ammo still available(not exactly sure why this happens)I usually try to rationalize this away as the target may have been able to find some way to hide by finding some cover and concealment or dip in the terrain or my mortar crew is distracted for some unknown reason or they are prepping the mortar rounds for the next fire session.Sometimes I like this degree of uncertainty of not being able to micro manage every aspect of the mortar crews target aquisition and firing sequence and other times I find it to be very frustrating.

< Message edited by Dane49 -- 12/14/2012 8:11:54 PM >

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/14/2012 11:02:44 PM   
wodin


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Dane as you don't play the campaigns you don't need to worry about ammo so much..playing the campaigns you really need to keep an eye on it..a few times I've realised half my force is out of ammo before I even begin!!

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/15/2012 5:53:49 AM   
Dane49

 

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Hell,even in the quick battles in doesn't take very long to empty the ammo crates.5 minutes max with sustained fire and then the mortar crews become nothing more than regular infantry.

It really doesn't take long to shoot thru a basic load in this game.

< Message edited by Dane49 -- 12/15/2012 6:00:03 AM >

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/15/2012 10:26:13 AM   
phoenix

 

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Very helpful, Dane. Thanks. I'll try a few things. Didn't realise you had to hold LMB and draw a box to get Priority Target to work.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/15/2012 12:50:53 PM   
wodin


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Dane I understand..but imagine if you had that platoon in the next battle!! Seriously ammo is hyper important in Campaign games otherwise you could find yourself with what seems loads of platoons for the next battle..but very few have ammo..or have nearly run out..loads of times I've had what i thought was decent armour..only to find they where down to the last three or four ammo before the fight even starts.

The campiagn game adds a whole new level of strategy.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/15/2012 5:16:09 PM   
Dane49

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

Dane I understand..but imagine if you had that platoon in the next battle!! Seriously ammo is hyper important in Campaign games otherwise you could find yourself with what seems loads of platoons for the next battle..but very few have ammo..or have nearly run out..loads of times I've had what i thought was decent armour..only to find they where down to the last three or four ammo before the fight even starts.

The campiagn game adds a whole new level of strategy.


I understand that wodin.I've played a few of the initial campaigns in the beginning and had a few 1 sided battles where I had no AT assets and spent 2 hours during a battle just trying to hide my units from roving enemy tanks
that I was powerless against and sort of shied away from the campaign battles,not to mention most start during darkness and I'm not a big fan of the darkness battles either.

Another thing is all the campaigns take place around the Kharkov area in Feb.-Mar. 43 (Except the Summer one)and I prefer to simulate battles with this game that don't necessarially take place during this time and this area.

I have the book Zhukovs greatest defeat about the Operation Mars campaign (Nov-Dec 1942)and like to simulate battles from that book,also there is a board game out on the Operation Mars campaign that has quite a few interesting scenarios and an excellent order of battle reference that makes gaming some of the Operation Mars battles from that game very enjoyable.

I find that I enjoy the QBs more for the variety I'm able to add to the game and the replayability aspect of it that is only limited by my imagination.

With that said I would eventually like to design a few mini campaigns for some of the QBs so I can expand the battles to maybe 3-4 turns to allow for a reinforcement aspect for some of my QBs.

GD42 is an interesting game and I think it woould make for an interesting DLC fot this game as well since most of the equipment for the game is already designed.Boardgame Geek has some interesting write ups on this game and a rules book to download for scenarios and order of battle references.

< Message edited by Dane49 -- 12/15/2012 5:53:34 PM >

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/15/2012 6:58:09 PM   
phoenix

 

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I sympathise greatly with the running around for 2 hours trying to hide thing, Dane. That was certainly my miserable impression last time I came at this game. Like - what am I meant to do against all this armour? This time round I've managed to find scenarios (Kras Pol is one) where it's not so hopeless. And the night battles are now amazing in terms of tension and confusion, partly due to the beautiful effects of tracer light, which casts amazing, varied shadows as the bullet moves across the landscape. You see all these burning trucks and men and lights going off all over and noise, and there's nothing much you can really do to direct things precisely once it kicks off, and it really feels like a horrible thing, I think, at night, something ghastly and out of control. More like war must be. CM - the closest comparison - seems sterile by comparison, I think.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 2:01:58 AM   
Dane49

 

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I just recently posted some links over on the Graviteam forum for a 2 volumn series on the GrossDeutschland Division(Can't seem to post links here for some reason).

These links are for depositfiles PDF files.And the downloads are free.Over 1,000 pages.

The volumns cover the GD division from its inception up till the defensive battles in East Prussia Dec.1944.
The 2 volumns are division history diarys and at least 600+ pages are devoted to its involvement in the Russian campaign starting in June of 1941.

There is a wealth of information in these books to keep me busy designing QBs for this game for quite awhile.I have all the DLCs for this game so I am able to use the maps and equipment to pretty much cover all the battles written in these volumns up to about mid 1943.

If you like this game I think you may be interested in the book links I posted on the Graviteam forums also.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 2:10:13 AM   
Dane49

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Very helpful, Dane. Thanks. I'll try a few things. Didn't realise you had to hold LMB and draw a box to get Priority Target to work.


Yes,after you draw a box around them the targets in LOS should highlight.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 2:21:05 AM   
Dane49

 

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quote:

CM - the closest comparison - seems sterile by comparison, I think.


CM doesn't even come close as far as I'm concerned in simulating the excellent graphical and visual displays that I've come to expect from APOS.

It would be nice if those 2 companies could team up and pool their resources,so we could have a game that incorporates the best of both worlds.

I doubt it would happen though-2 different mind sets and cultures separate these 2 companies apart from each other so much, that if it were to happen, it would most likely end in disaster for both companys.

< Message edited by Dane49 -- 12/16/2012 3:10:08 PM >

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 3:13:28 AM   
wodin


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There is an option for no night battles..Dane as for hiding when out gunned thats why I prefer one hour battles..that way you have a chance of some units surviving if out gunned.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 10:19:00 AM   
phoenix

 

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One reason I can see for making more use of QB is that the Real Time format means you can't keep pace with everything that's going on in bigger battles. I just played my third night Kras Pol battle which took place over 3 distinct sites and whilst i was concentrating on one site, things were happening in the others, naturally. I lost. Though this is less of a problem in APOS than in CM because there's not so much you can do in terms of micromanagement in APOS and anyway the friendly AI does actually engage the enemy and do things. Unlike in CM, where you MUST micromanage. There is a turn based option of course in CM, to ease the job of keeping track, but since a minute is a long time without any control in a fierce fight, and since, imho the CM friendly AI is so minimal and can't really look after itself, still less show aggressive initiative, this doesn't get rid of the issue, just displaces it. At least with the QB option you can keep things small enough to be able to see what's happening. Though, to be honest, not knowing what's going on in APOS really does feel like part of the command problem (mainly because the sprites don't need you to tell them all the time what to do), wheras in CM it's just frustrating, because the sprites will do nothing at all (bar cower, run away, slavishly follow the last order etc) unless you tell them to. I think great work has been done on APOS, especially in terms of having the beginning of a functioning friendly AI. I hope they continue to develop that aspect. Be nicer to see a cooperation between Panther (Command Ops) and APOS, I think, than APOS and CM. Because Command Ops has a great friendly AI, the only decent one out there, I think, in any game at all.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 12/16/2012 10:20:41 AM >

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 3:36:16 PM   
Dane49

 

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Yes,I would like to see the Operational aspect of this game more fully developed,it still seems like more of an after thought in its approach to simulating both levels of combat in this game.The fact that the operational level is there though is a very pleasing aspect and nice touch,but I assume it was always meant to play a secondary role in the development of this game.Considering that Graviteam is a small company with limited resources I doubt we will see the Operational level expanded on more than what is already presented.Though they do seem to be tweeking some of the Operational characteristics in the next patch.

Graviteam is changing their name soon to Graviteam Tactics.Maybe if they changed the name to Graviteam Operations and Tactics,we might expect more in this area of development.

Right now I don't see a demand from the customer base to expand more on the Operational aspect till all the bugs have been worked out of the tactical area of this game first.Mainly new content for the 3D environment is what is spurring demand and interest,and it may be a very long time if ever before the Operational side is developed in more depth.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 4:01:48 PM   
wodin


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The Operational side has seen massive changes over time and for me i's what makes it stand out. I'm not keen on the CM bashing going on as i also love that game aswell..there is easy room for both. The main reason why I would choose CMx2 over AP is WEGO, it also has a more sim like feel to it then APOS. Visually APOS beats CMx2 hands down, though a fully modded CMBN is also a thing of beauty. I think ther eis little to choose from with regards to the AI.

Once CMx2 East front arrives it will be my first choice for tactical east front combat mainly down to the fact of WEGO and the replay.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 4:35:33 PM   
phoenix

 

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Don't agree about the AI, Wodin - CM friendly AI is deplorable, truly, I think. You play wego and a squad gets attacked in that minute when you can't do anything and it can do zip to save itself. Basically it cowers until killed. I think APOS slightly better than that. But the friendly AI aspect is still neglected full stop, I thnk, across many games (only Command Ops excepted, and that's what I would call an 'operational' game) - as if they were all built with multiplayer in mind, which they're not. Seems to me the graphics don't matter so much as the AI and I wish always more money and development went into the AI.

I meant that they should develop the friendly AI for the tactical game, Dane, not the operational game. If they had the Command Ops AI for the tactical phase, that would be fantastic. Different things though. Just a dream.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 5:26:31 PM   
**budd**


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

One reason I can see for making more use of QB is that the Real Time format means you can't keep pace with everything that's going on in bigger battles.


This is the reason i keep my battle radius setting at limited, i don't want to miss anything. I still do, but not as much

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 6:14:12 PM   
phoenix

 

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How do you mean, Budd? Is that an option I haven't discovered?

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 6:14:15 PM   
**budd**


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[/quote]
I understand that wodin.I've played a few of the initial campaigns in the beginning and had a few 1 sided battles where I had no AT assets and spent 2 hours during a battle just trying to hide my units from roving enemy tanks
[/quote]

I defiantly have had this happen to me alot when i first played the campaigns. It's adds to the experience for me now, you for sure have to use your AT assets wisely.I like to counter attack, so i usually give ground in one area and try to counter attack in another if i have enough troops to form a reserve. I like the fact that when you replay ops the AI never seems to come at you the same way twice so i can try different things. when the counter attacks works it a beautiful thing, of course it's a disaster when it doesn't but its all in good fun. i'm on turn 8 of my current op, at turn 5 i had a minor victory, now i'm at a minor defeat with very little in the way of AT assets left. I get your drift about the night battles i generally like them, but last turn i had 5 different battles to fight at night. The krauts have me on the ropes and i think they know it
nothing like some snow and fog at night and shooting up some flares to throw a little light on the enemy advance....now that is some atomosphere. I'm getting better at doing things on the op map, pulling battered troops back, using reserves and using my repair unit better. I think of it like a marathon now, where before i played it like it was a race. Well i see Krasnaya Polyana is on sale at GG, time to pick that up.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 6:17:17 PM   
**budd**


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quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

How do you mean, Budd? Is that an option I haven't discovered?








Attachment (1)

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 6:18:09 PM   
phoenix

 

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Ah! Thanks. I'll try that!

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 6:23:40 PM   
phoenix

 

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I suppose to be fair to CM I should say that it's some kind of indicator of something that in CM if you want to take the greatest care to keep all your guys alive then you can. You can move slowly, carefully, from cover, through cover, to cover (if available). It seems impossible to keep the troops alive in APOS, certainly in that kind of way, via precise positioning. It's a micromanaged feature of CM, which you just can't do in APOS. It's much more like you give them a general order (with some conditions possible) then off they go. If they're caught out I think they react much better than in CM, but they do get caught out more. When i think of the long hours playing CMSF, for example (not as good as CNFI, but still great, in its own way) and having to get objectives without, if possible a single casualty (and it was possible) - nothing like that is conceivable in APOS, surely? You just can't micromanage the troops position with the same finesse. But as their friendly AI develops this will be a good thing.

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 6:39:40 PM   
**budd**


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i have trouble with exact positioning also, especially with guns. Getting your troops to move just a little one way or the other is a problem. Good use of waypoints and orders can get them there using your desired route, but certainly not in a finite way. Andre has said that there really not trying to use that level of micromanagement in this game. The AI does a pretty good job though. I just wish you could tow guns, my guys get tired pushing those guns to a new position, also would help them to survive when you have to bug out.

< Message edited by **budd** -- 12/16/2012 6:41:23 PM >


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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 8:43:25 PM   
Dane49

 

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I find a certain amount of micro management is still necessary in this game,as much as I'm against the idea.The AI for this game still isn't developed enough to properly mount an attack by just ordering the platoon to do it.I normally have to step in and fill that void were the AI fails in its tactical approach in how to properly and realistially accomplish this.If I order my platoon to attack I would expect 2 of the 3 squads to assault while 1 squad and the support weapons lay down suppressive fire with the platoon HQ following closely behind the assault elements.This doesn't happen!Instead the whole platoon rushes forward with the HQ generally taking the lead.

And as far as WEGO at the tactical level in a 3D environment-NEVER!Not for me not ever.RTS only.

Combat at the tactical level is not a chess match or a fencing duel.It's more of a knock down drag out bar fight.No sitting back and analyzing the situation from every perspective,in real life combat you need to think quickly and act even faster to triumph over your opponent on the battlefield.If you can't adapt quickly to the fluid nature of tactical combat on a modern battlefield than you quickly become a casualty.The Germans trained for understood and excelled in this tactical doctrine by giving their junior leaders the latitude to act on their own assessment and judgement of the situation and gave them the ability to alter previous orders if the tactical initiative presented itself.RTS captures this in a more realistic manner,it also captures the chaos of combat and the inability of the commander to influence every single action on the battlefield,I find this refreshing in a wargame where lack of absolute control enhances the uncertainty and chaos that is inherent in all firefights and to where only quick thinking and proper tactical action are the only true measure of success in this arena.

WEGO at the operational level-fine.At the tactical level-No way.

< Message edited by Dane49 -- 12/16/2012 8:48:46 PM >

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RE: MORTAR HELP!!! Plus Target priorities - 12/16/2012 8:59:58 PM   
phoenix

 

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Very eloquent , Dane. I wholeheartedly agree. Except fencing isn't like chess (though I realise it's often billed that way...). You train in fencing to get your movements ahead of your thinking (a certain kind of conscious thinking, anyway - the kind that chess absolutely requires). But point taken.....:)

I need to do more to properly manage attacks etc, I think. I'm still learning this game. But I guess I meant there is a world of diff what happenes if in APOS I, say, group select 2 tanks and 2 inf sections and simply give them an assault order, and what happens if I do the same in CM. In APOS they do actually form up, they do advance together (inf slowing to wait for tanks to get ahead, if, say you've requested tanks in front and the tanks happen to be heavy and slow) according to the formation set, etc. They don't form a good enough plan, of course. The AI doesn't get one tank to flank the target, or one section, whilst another provides suppression and the remainder proceed direct etc. But they do do something more than just move forward as they were...

(in reply to Dane49)
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