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Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/12/2012 10:37:27 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 1539
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Joel, you may or may not be aware of a current game in the AAR section where the German player retreated to Poland before the blizzard of 1941 and then went totally defensive from June 1942. The line held runs roughly Riga, Minsk, Kiev, Krivoi Rog, Crimea. This attitude from the Axis player consigns the Soviet player to a very boring and tedious role for the ensuing 100 turns or so of nothing more than trench warfare across the entire front.

I am sure many people would agree that this kind of ploy is not what WITE is really about. Could it be possible to include an early Auto Victory check in the alt scenario that will dissuade such a strategy?

Because really it puts the Soviet player in a position where he either consigns himself to 100's of hours of boredom or he abandons the game. Neither is a good thing for WITE.

I accept that nothing should change the VC for current games, I am not seeking a resolution for my own situation, but can we please have something done so that going forward no one else has to endure the monotony of it. I would also add that in order to crack the Axis position it takes many hours of admin work by the Soviet's turn after turn and that the Axis player, once set up can sit back and need only dedicate a relatively small amount of time to each turn.

IMO is a problem that needs a solution. If the player base and Devs see it differently and think that this strategy is fine and should be an option for the Axis player then I will accept that no problem. But from my observations of other players comments, and my own personal opinion is it should be discouraged if not through Auto VC then some other avenue.

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Post #: 1
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/12/2012 10:42:21 PM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1873
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		I mostly agree about a auto victory condition, BUT it also needs to be included for both sides.

Gentleman, it is time for the track meet to end if WitE is ever going to progress into the game it could be.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 2
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 3:12:12 AM   
AFV


Posts: 371
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		If this was added, it would be for both sides. If the Soviet fails to hold enough territory, the Axis gets an auto victory (thats already implemented). If the Axis does not capture enough territory at certain points in the game, the Soviet would get the auto victory (MT's suggestion).

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Post #: 3
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 3:25:31 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 616
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV
If the Soviet fails to hold enough territory, the Axis gets an auto victory (thats already implemented).

This needs to be extended to stop the Soviets running away in 41.


(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 4
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 4:55:58 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


Posts: 2113
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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab
This needs to be extended to stop the Soviets running away in 41.


Followed by giving the Southwestern Front a fighting chance and removing the possibility of annihilating half of it in a totally ahistorical manner by Turn 2

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Post #: 5
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 11:20:48 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 4766
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		It's amazing what people will come up with just to win a game. Joel can make the call but I think it's unlikely 2by3 will go down this slippery slope. Good suggestions for WitE 2 though.

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Post #: 6
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 11:28:21 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

Posts: 568
Joined: 12/27/2010
Status: offline 		Do you really need to attack? From I've garnered in the AAR, Flaviusx has told you repeatedly that you're going to keep suffering these high casualty attacks requiring lots of busywork for disproportionately small gains because you're trying to force the issue of turning the Red Army into an offensive weapon about 1-2 years ahead of time*. If Pelton is just breezing through the turns by sitting on his hands and waiting for you to come to him, couldn't you also just wait it out until the evolution of the SHC kicks in?

* I think the bigger issue here is that you cannot turn the Red Army into an offensive weapon by 1942 even if the German player turns turtle, but that's probably way out of the scope of any change that could conceivably happen to WITE's design at this junction.

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Post #: 7
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 11:43:02 AM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 616
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Followed by giving the Southwestern Front a fighting chance and removing the possibility of annihilating half of it in a totally ahistorical manner by Turn 2

I wouldn't object to that.In fact I've made some suggestions on how to implement it.The problem is that it would unbalance the early game.Forcing the Soviets to fight forward in 41 would have to be done at the same time.

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 8
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 2:28:51 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Michael has actually dialed it down a bit so far as the attacking goes to a level which is probably ok. But he's not going to get very far until 1943. And it will take him a good year to grind the Wehrmacht down to the point where mobile warfare is possible. Once Romania is knocked out the whole game will speed up...and he doesn't have to go far to make that happen.

He has, for reasons not clear to me, declined to take out Finland in 42, which I believe is perfectly within the Red Army's capability and likely to lead to more positive results than these human wave assaults against the Axis, but, shrug.

I figure the whole thing is over by late 44.

Imo, this game he is playing is very likely a one off. I really don't see many people trying to do what Pelton is doing once it is shown that it doesn't work. Personally I'd be enjoying the situation Michael is in and relishing the opportunity to put together an absolutely perfect Red Army unhindered by the Axis. This doesn't happen very often. But obviously this isn't his bag.







< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/13/2012 2:31:03 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 2:39:23 PM   
janh

 

Posts: 1139
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quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
Followed by giving the Southwestern Front a fighting chance and removing the possibility of annihilating half of it in a totally ahistorical manner by Turn 2

I wouldn't object to that.In fact I've made some suggestions on how to implement it.The problem is that it would unbalance the early game.Forcing the Soviets to fight forward in 41 would have to be done at the same time.


Would be nice to have a corresponding "early VC" to the sudden death the Axis side presently has. Again as alternative campaign for those who do not believe in such cases, would be really great for PBEM people who dislike defensive pauses and wish for more action.

I think you cannot compare this set of sudden death VC conditions to "entirely preventing" a Russian flight in summer, or a German in blizzard. It only discourages extensive, and base-less retreats too far, but still allows players to "chose their fighting ground" wisely.

If you'd really desire to restrict "withdrawals, line corrections and retreats" further, aka make Russian eastward move so slow or expensive or whatever that it has to act as a punching-ball until December, then I'd support your suggestion that one also should restrain Wehrmacht during blizzard so that 1-2 hex slow disengagement withdrawals would be forbidden and Axis gets a thorough punching as well. I wouldn't want either of that, though.
As Bleetchley indicated, I'd fear the Russian with the present exp/moral sets and reinforcements/manpower wouldn't survive the summer; in many if not most games it would be much worse than now and right now it already looks like a good Russian player cannot afford any mistakes against an equally good German player (unlike the reality, where they survived at least as good as in most AARs despite repeated stupidities). Same I disagree with the blizzard rules, the Russian power is overestimated in that period and unlike history, where no major German formations came to harm and Germans still packed sufficient punch for counteroffensives, this is much much harder in game. It would be disastrous for any German player if he only allowed steps westward were those of forced retreats and routs. So I'd rather stay with the suggestion Michael had, else operational freedom, which makes games like these interesting gets restricted too much and other balance parameters must be tuned better.

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Post #: 10
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 5:23:04 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 18455
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		I think as a start, player agreement to a 175 or 180 auto victory limit at the end of Feb 1942 would seem reasonable (i.e if Germans don't have at least 175 or 180 points at start of 1st turn of March 42, the Soviets win). As a house rule, it's easy. Altering the code is of course more involved.

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Post #: 11
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 7:34:56 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 1539
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I intend to do that very thing Joel in all future games. But it still leaves the unwary quite defensless against such poor sportsmanship.

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Post #: 12
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 10:16:58 PM   
Blubel

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 6/22/2011
Status: offline 		Yes, but how often will this actually happen? Pelton is the first one who did it. And Pelton basically tries everything. I for one just don't see anyone doing it. It's not fun. And in the end we all play many hours of this game just for fun.
It's the same as with the Russian player withdrawing and getting less then 2,7 million looses in 1941 Pelton talks about all the time. It just doesn't happen all that often...

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Post #: 13
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 11:00:09 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 1539
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		You may be right Blubel, but when it does happen (and may happen more now that Pelton has done it) the Soviet is faced with 100's of hours of non fun game or letting the Axis player get away with a very undeserved win or draw. Of course, once stung by this it would be prudent to avoid playing such a person in future. Note to self.

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Post #: 14
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 11:23:54 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2016
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		If the Soviet player plays the "optimum" game (which almost all do now) even with the Lvow pocket overall summer of 41 Soviet casualties are far lower then historical. This leads to a more then historical Soviet romp during the blizzard and eventually to the best move an Axis player has in 42 - the early turtle.

The main issue here is the summer of 41 and the Soviet strategy of not engaging in the south and giving up huge swaths of land for no real impact on the long term strategic situation.

What can be done?

I am all for beefing up the Soviet army and taking out the Lvow pocket. But if there is no reason to put up a stout defense a smart Soviet player will still evacuate out all the best troops and send them north. Then set up the usual checkerboard in the south and delaying action.

A real reason to defend in the south could be AP point generation or morale reductions that have some real teeth.

Imagine if you lost Kiev as the Soviet player before turn 10 and you took a 5 AP point per turn hit for a year. One would think you would try to defend the place.

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Post #: 15
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/13/2012 11:38:22 PM   
Pelton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

It's amazing what people will come up with just to win a game. Joel can make the call but I think it's unlikely 2by3 will go down this slippery slope. Good suggestions for WitE 2 though.


I think its a great idea thats been around for close to 2 years.

Basicly very old news.

I do not think its all that hard to code, but I am guessing 2by3 is pressed for time.

Good idea for wite 2 yes, but something that should(must) be done for witw. Plus any other game thats follows until WiE.

The player base has been begging for 16+ months for VP conditions, seems only good business in the future to include this as part of each new game.

Customers want service, 2by3's customers have been asking, pleading, begging cring ( leaving) ect ect and you keep saying no no no.

If you want to sell product you give the customer what they want, its not a slippy slope to sell more product!

This is a first in a long chain of games 2by3 is working on.

The research and time they put into a game is amazing and the games are untouchable by anyone esle.

We the poeple that spend the money to keep 2by3 a float simply want a VP system put in plase.

What better plase to try it out then the first game in the string.

Any ways at some point once you have turned off another few 1000 paying customers MYBEE JUST MYBEE you will try it.

Great old idea MT, but I really don't think they get it and probably never will.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

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Post #: 16
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 12:51:27 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

If the Soviet player plays the "optimum" game (which almost all do now) even with the Lvow pocket overall summer of 41 Soviet casualties are far lower then historical.



If a Soviet player takes historical losses he will lose the game in 41. Replacements only produce at best about 4 million by year's end assuming anything like a historical advance, and that's generous. That's enough to get the Red Army to 5 millionish by the end of 41 assuming the usual 3 million in losses.








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Post #: 17
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 2:27:54 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 1539
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline
quote:

What can be done?


Some imagination.

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Post #: 18
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 2:30:20 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2016
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		All I can say is at this point "optimum" Soviet play has a great chance of leading to a German turtle in 42.

I have played several games now to the summer of 42 as the Soviets and was able to stop Axis summer offensives rather easily. I actually welcome the Axis offensive as I know it will just cost them casualties and make it easier for me to get the steam roller going in the late summer of 42.

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Post #: 19
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 2:31:53 AM   
Ketza


Posts: 2016
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

quote:

What can be done?


Some imagination.


What do you think of the AP point loss if the Soviets do not hold large cities long enough in the summer of 41?

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Post #: 20
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 3:24:19 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

All I can say is at this point "optimum" Soviet play has a great chance of leading to a German turtle in 42.

I have played several games now to the summer of 42 as the Soviets and was able to stop Axis summer offensives rather easily. I actually welcome the Axis offensive as I know it will just cost them casualties and make it easier for me to get the steam roller going in the late summer of 42.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

All I can say is at this point "optimum" Soviet play has a great chance of leading to a German turtle in 42.

I have played several games now to the summer of 42 as the Soviets and was able to stop Axis summer offensives rather easily. I actually welcome the Axis offensive as I know it will just cost them casualties and make it easier for me to get the steam roller going in the late summer of 42.



As we know its much easyer to win as SHC you 3 are undefeated and easly rolling west in 1942.

German retreat loses and 1942 when winning are way to high.

German retreat loses need to be lowered if they were not late patch and when winning in 1942 they should be taking 1/2 the loses.

Unless you can pocket 10 units a turn in 42, it is as Katza says pointlesss to attack in 1942. If Germans win 10 battles they are lossing OOB.

Why attack when your shortening the game?

You can as german lose in late 1944 or early 1945.

It simply doesn't matter if you attack in 1942 or not, you get the very same result in most cases.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/14/2012 3:26:41 AM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 21
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 3:39:28 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 1539
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Creativity, innovation, guts and perseverance. The game can be won in 1942 as Axis. As you seem to be doing in 4 out of 5 Pelton.

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------------------

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Post #: 22
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 3:58:15 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 1539
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Any number of methods could be devised for preventing runaways. But the fact is none will be implemented in to WITE 1.0

The reason for this topic is/was to gather support for something that could be done with minimal effort from the devs and that would not impact their stock CG 41-45.

Simply put an auto victory in the Alt Scenario for the Soviets in March 42. If people don't like it they simply play the stock game.

While they are at it why not throw another check in around August 1941 that would disuade extreme Soviet runaways. It’s the easiest and most effective method to encourage a more historical political shackle that the player (CIC East) should labor under. Those opposed play the stock version. I know which scenario I would prefer.

_____________________________

'Deus le Volt!'
------------------

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Post #: 23
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 9:54:06 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

Any number of methods could be devised for preventing runaways. But the fact is none will be implemented in to WITE 1.0

The reason for this topic is/was to gather support for something that could be done with minimal effort from the devs and that would not impact their stock CG 41-45.

Simply put an auto victory in the Alt Scenario for the Soviets in March 42. If people don't like it they simply play the stock game.

While they are at it why not throw another check in around August 1941 that would disuade extreme Soviet runaways. It’s the easiest and most effective method to encourage a more historical political shackle that the player (CIC East) should labor under. Those opposed play the stock version. I know which scenario I would prefer.


Allot of poeple have been asking for this just a few months into release, because of short coming of game.

And like you said its optional.


_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Michael T)
Post #: 24
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 12:31:58 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Pelton, y'know, you are the reason Michael is asking for this. I think you should man up and take ownership of your strategy instead of blaming 2by3 for it.

Nobody else has tried what you are doing. And even though Michael is freaking out over it, I'm skeptical that anybody else will be inclined to repeat your experiment. You are going to lose, after all, and well ahead of schedule.

This all seems to me to be an issue between the two of you and not really a problem with the game. You for trying exotic and I think ill conceived strategies, and Michael, for being incredibly impatient and not enjoying the freebie game being handed to him. Playing the Soviet Union isn't about instant gratification or sudden death. It should be savored. Building the perfect Red Army is imo half the fun.

The power to concede this game lies in your hands Pelton.





< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/14/2012 12:36:39 PM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 1:19:23 PM   
vandev

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 9/14/2011
Status: offline 		Actually, Pelton is not the first here. A few months back in one of the AAR's someelse did the enitre german army to Poland thing. Don't remember how it worked out.

vandev

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Post #: 26
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 1:48:47 PM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1873
Joined: 11/28/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vandev

Actually, Pelton is not the first here. A few months back in one of the AAR's someelse did the enitre german army to Poland thing. Don't remember how it worked out.

vandev


Yeah, I remember this as well and it was several months at least.

As far as the tactic being "viable", while it would have never been allowed by Hitler, the idea of withdrawing to Poland was a strategy suggested by Rundstadt. That it has some historical background makes it interesting.

I will be frank here and if it causes issues, oh well.

What should have been a terrific game between two players has bogged down to the occasional mud slinging match with both players putting posts up like this to change the game because of this AAR. The fact is Micahel ambushed Pelton by scouting his other games and setting his entire strategy on a chance that Pelton would continue to follow what he does as the German in other AARs. Pelton made that mistake (you can't simply keep doing the same thing over and over again from one game to the next and not expect someone to catch on), so Pelton had to change up things from a "traditional" game and he did. I found Michael's gloating over the whole thing to be over the top and he absolutely deserves every bit of pain he is getting. You have won enough games to simply be gracious in a "gotcha" game, but no you have to screw with your opponent. I would not have given in either after that either. Even if Pelton had given in, I would have considered it a flawed and cheap victory by Michael and it will always be a flawed and cheap victory. Not Michael's fault, but they should both abandon this game and start a new one and see how Michael does when he doesn't have a good idea of what Pelton may try since Pelton would likely change his tactics. Michael would still likely win but he would actually have to work a bit to earn it.

This game reminds me of the time I was playing the Allies in Third Reich. I had figured out how to have a good chance to wipe out the Italians in 1939, depending on how the Italians set up and it had to be a very conservative set up for them. After I knocked the Italians out, the Axis surrendered. Lesson learned and a cheap victory, but interesting to all parties none the less.

Enjoy your cheap victory Michael, but it may be one that you have to work really hard to achieve after all.

(in reply to vandev)
Post #: 27
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 2:00:18 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5744
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: vandev

Actually, Pelton is not the first here. A few months back in one of the AAR's someelse did the enitre german army to Poland thing. Don't remember how it worked out.

vandev


Near as I can tell this match between Pelton and Michael is the first time the proposition has been put to a real and sustained test. Nobody else has played it out this far and in such detail. The handful of other times somebody tried it the AARs tended to disappear. Nobody has yet made this thing work out.

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Post #: 28
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 4:35:20 PM   
Blubel

 

Posts: 209
Joined: 6/22/2011
Status: offline 		IIRC the one who did it last time still attacked in 42. He simply camped the winter in Poland, not the entire war.

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Post #: 29
RE: Alt CG Scenario VC - 12/14/2012 6:59:42 PM   
rrbill


Posts: 247
Joined: 10/5/2009
Status: offline 		What's a developer to do?

Provide a game that allows players to discover clever, unusual strategies, both in defense and offense, but oh no! stop everything when it happens. Guarantee "historical" losses no matter the play that may develop. Wire in changes to algorithms at key points to assure historical outcomes. Hmm... some equipment variants not represented, darn. Provide historically correct scenarios but don't play 'em. Gee, start in June 41 but expect historicity in Jan 45.

My one complaint in the current game is that at key moments algorithms are rewired.

Be nice if outcomes could always be explained by resources, actions, and situations and that these could be managed in the game in a reasonable way.

(in reply to Blubel)
Post #: 30
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