DBB is the solution

[GreyJoy]

The game between me and QBall has slowed down a bit in the last couple of days, so i had some spare time.
I decided to try to set up a sandbox scenario starting from the DBB data base.
Wanted to reproduce the CV battle that led, during my last game against Rader, to the loss of 30 allied CVs + 8 BBs and several cruisers in a single turn.
This time i used the newest beta patch that solved the bug related with uber-coordination.

I created 3 CVTFs, each of them with 3 Essex CVs (with the 6/44 upgrades) + 2 CVLs, 3 Indiana Class BBs and several Cleveland Class CLs.

Every fighter group was placed at 50% CAP with 6 range.

Positioned these 3 CVTFs in the same hex, 8 hexes distant from a level 10 japanese AF.

The japanese base has an Air Army HQ loaded with torps.

I then placed 200 Zeros + 150 Frances + 150 Betties + 150 Nells on torpedo attack at 6,000 feet, with 70 Jills on Naval search.

I've tried it 10 times (i know i should have tested it more but i was getting bored).

The results were incredible: an average between 55 and 75 planes shot down by flak with 30/50 more damaged and ended up with op losses. The CAP worked always perfectly (CAP was between 15,000 and 20,000 feet).

The coordination was decent (with usually a big raid followed by several smaller ones).

The best result achieved, among 10 attempts, was a 2 TT hits on a CVL, a BB sunk and a couple of non-deadly hits on a CV. NOTHING MORE!!!!

Flak really worked well, distrupting the attackers, and the coordination was never as perfect as the one achieved by Rader in his famous raid. The CAP did work very well, shooting down an avg of 200 planes.

So, to summerize, i think the mix of the newest beta with the DBB modifications to naval flak solved the problem of the 200 firing passage

KUDOS to Michealm and to the DBB team !!!!!

[LoBaron]

Looks great GJ! And you are right, seems like the combination did it.

Nice improvement.

[pws1225]

Maybe it's time to challenge Rader to a rematch!

[GreyJoy]

ORIGINAL: pws1225

Maybe it's time to challenge Rader to a rematch!

[:D] At the moment i'm having my hands full with QBall trying to destoy my Empire and Rader seems to be away from the game since a long time now...

[seille]

Some more details would be cool GreyJoy. How many escorts? CAP strength, plane type of CAP and so on.
Maybe you could add a picture of one of the bigger waves as example. Many thanks !

[Oliver Heindorf]

can you upload the scenario please for testing here on my side as well. For example: I put never CAP online Range six hexes....I would like to figure out how it woul work out with my SOP's.

Thank you !

[crsutton]

GJ, a favor please? Would you run the same test but make half of them kamikaze? And if you have the time, make them all kamikaze. This is important to know as well as I know there are some big 1,000 plane kami fans out there. [;)]

I will say that the new coordination in stock has taken some time to get used to but I now think it does work better.

My next game will be with DBBs and all of the flak and ASW fixes.

[GreyJoy]

I'll do guys. Today i'm not coming back home (where i do have the sandbox). WIll post it tomorrow.
 
However planes on CAP were only Hellcats-3 and Corsairs and there were never more than 200 available (of which half were in the air and half ready to scramble).
The escort, for the bigger raid, was always between 100 and 150 A6M2s (yes, outdated, but i wanted to rapresent crappy planes flied by crappy pilots, as Rader did).
The bombers were on their high 60s NavT skill (so very plausible for late war scenarios).
 
CAP was on range 6 cause i wanted to simulate a possible environement where you have to fear for a CV counterstrike and so you cannot have the luxury of having all your planes on 0 hex range.
 
My guess? the flak was the real key. With late war flak finally working, when the enemy plane finally is ready to deliver is ordinance it has already been damaged several times and the cohesion of the squadrons has gone "fishing".
 
Wanna try to add some more bombers and some more escort (wanna try with 500 escort a/c escorting 800 bombers) and see what happens.
 
 

[JocMeister]

I think you might be bang on about the flak! Never thought of that! [X(]

About DBB I can only say that so far I´m just into 3/42 in my first DBB game and I will never play a vanilla game again! I love it! [:)]

[Symon]

Hello, all.

I must say, I feel very gratified and humble at how well DBB has been received by everyone. We must never forget Don Bowen, who started all this madness with Don's Babies.

DBB ain't perfect by any means, but it does attempt to slow things down and give more consistent results, so that operational tempo is a bit closer to reality. And it's grainy, so that Don's Babies have an actual operational use that has value.

There's a lot more to DBB than advertised. Have collected files and results from a Guadalcanal Problem, played out last year, that highlights some of the nitty-gritty land, and air, and especially support/supply/transport features, that the database supports.

Soon as the Holidays are over, I'll start posting periodic sections of interest in the AARs.

Ciao. JWE

[bradfordkay]

I visited the Babes website as found on antheer thread, but was unable to download the scenarios because I need permission (?). Am I visiting the wrong location?

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I visited the Babes website as found on antheer thread, but was unable to download the scenarios because I need permission (?). Am I visiting the wrong location?

Dude...they are as open as open can be. https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/

Yo can't find what yo want, pm me and I'll make sure yo get it.
Ciao, Sy'mon

[Icedawg]

What is the 200 firing passage?

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I visited the Babes website as found on antheer thread, but was unable to download the scenarios because I need permission (?). Am I visiting the wrong location?

I wonder if you're clicking in the right place? Last time I was on the site it was an arrow way over on the right-hand site. It's just a characteristic of Google Sites download links.

[traskott]

Could you post the link of the AAR with that battle? thanks!!! [:D]

[janh]

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
What is the 200 firing passage?

There was a threshold, a cap on the maximum number of firing passes CAP fighters were allowed to make on an enemy raid. That was why people could in late war just bump up the number of escorts >>200 (with outdated airframes, aka "ablative armor"), and all the CAP fighters would never get to the point of shooting at the bombers.

This was changed in one of the recent betas. I think the maximum number of firing passes is now a function of the raid size, and ought to effectively prevent the above.

[aoffen]

DBB is not applicable to current games is it? Out of interest I wonder what the results would have been using the latests beta patch but with the stock data base.
Regards
Andrew

[inqistor]

ORIGINAL: janh

ORIGINAL: Icedawg
What is the 200 firing passage?

There was a threshold, a cap on the maximum number of firing passes CAP fighters were allowed to make on an enemy raid. That was why people could in late war just bump up the number of escorts >>200 (with outdated airframes, aka "ablative armor"), and all the CAP fighters would never get to the point of shooting at the bombers.

This was changed in one of the recent betas. I think the maximum number of firing passes is now a function of the raid size, and ought to effectively prevent the above.

Actually, I recall the desription was something around those lines:
FIRING PASS - for both sides game choses flight of up to 12 planes, and simulates battle. After incorporating loses, the same flight can take part in another PASS.
So, 200 fighters is far too few to hit cap of 200 passes (200/12=17 full flights).

ORIGINAL: aoffen

Out of interest I wonder what the results would have been using the latests beta patch but with the stock data base.

Probably close, as doubling effect, and penetration of AA weapons increases overall AA loses by around 20%. And cutting accuracy to 25% decreases loses by around 25%. So AA guns abilities have low influence on damages.
Here are earlier tests made by GreyJoy.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: aoffen
DBB is not applicable to current games is it? Out of interest I wonder what the results would have been using the latests beta patch but with the stock data base.
Regards
Andrew

DBB doesn’t do anything about “firing passes”. That is the code and nuthin but the code. Code works the same way for everything – stock, Babes, RA, you name it.

Flak is a little different because it has two parts – the code part and the data base part.

Code Part:

A year ago michaelm re-did the calculation method for Flak (AA and DP guns). Worked well, except just recently found that one of the nifty new statements, that makes it work, were in all the Flak routines except Land Flak. Michaelm just fixed this. See his Unofficial Public Beta thread in the Tech Forum (post #2).

25/11/12: 1120c - Tweaked Land based flak influenced by device's 'accuracy' value

This is the code part, and works the same for everything – stock, Babes, RA, you name it. The code change is just a simple use of any beta executable 1120c or greater. Doesn’t require anything else. It will improve the Flak performance of any stock scenario, now the Land part has the same stuff as Naval Flak.

But, wait …there’s more! You don’t have to pay $19.95, or even $9.95! By using this Special Offer and entering the Promo Code “RantzMohametz”, you can further upgrade your Flak performance for nothing! That’s right – bupkis, rien, nada, nichts, nichevo, mei you, betsuni!

Data Base Part:

Given the new calculation methods, Babes database of Device values (AA and DP guns) were modified to better conform to the new math. However, these new values cannot be accessed through the editor. They only show up in csv files generated by Michael’s latest model WitploadAE.exe program, at columns V, W, X, and Y. Unfortunately, data from a mod scenario cannot transfer to a stock scenario. But if everyone closes their eyes and wishes real hard, my gun can get more bullets … (oops, sorry, wrong movie).

Fixing Stock:

AndyMac recently posted updated (but Beta) versions of the stock scenarios in the Patch 07 unofficial data scen updates thread in the Tech Forum. These are 1-for-1 replacements for stock scenarios and have been “stamped” by Michael so they are “technically” updateable to ongoing games. Much of the new content will update nicely, but there will be some burps, here and there.

Andy’s scenarios have the Babes Device data expressly included, so if you wish to update an existing game, under stock, you can do so by substituting Andy’s scen version for the stock scen version and saying yes to the “update game? prompt”.

Now you got a stock scenario with the Babes data elements in it, and if you use Michael’s 1120c (or better) you will get good Flak (and more besides).

Ciao. JWE