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Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change

 
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Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/4/2012 7:12:45 PM   
osiris

 

Posts: 217
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hi All

Hope we can get a discussion going on stacking rules. After reading Panzer Tactics by Woflgang Schneider and SS Panzer Armor on the Eastern Front by Velimir Vuksic Im pretty much in the camp that the stacking rules in the game are wrong:

I will give a few clear examples

Infantry:
Average spacing between foxholes to reduce casualties from artillery fire was 50m-IN other words 5 men per 250m!! There should be no more then a platoon of infantry per hex or 1 towed weapons platoon

Mounted Infantry
Space between loaded halftracks was at minimum 100m. In other words its very unrealistic to allow players to put 3 full strenght halftrack counters in a single hex unless its in a assembly area

Tactics
In open terrain infantry never dug into forests since these were automtically targeted by enemy artillery
German infantry more often then not due to shortages used tanks as transport

Armor
Average distance between moving tanks of the same platoon was 100m
A German Tank platoon needed 200m width -100m depth to deploy
A attacking german tank company in a wedge formation needed a width of 500m by 400-500m in depth..in other words roughly 3 hexes to deploy a company..3 Panzer units per hex completely unrealistic
A defending german tank company the average spacing between tanks is 100m as per regulations
Tanks driving at full speed was considered to be bad for the tank and dangerous

Since the Allies learned from the Germans one can safely assume the tactics are similar

Underpowered Russian tanks
T34/85 had no problem penning the frontal armor of the Tiger 1 and Panther at 1000m: The M34-85mm gun could penetrate 95mm plate at 60'
A 45mm Russian anti-tank gun can kill a Panther at 250m with a shot into the side armor

Some suggestions on stacking

Infantry and Towed units
2 SP infantry unit: 4 units per hex
3 SP infantry unit: 3 units per hex
4 SP infantry unit: 2 unit per hex
5+ SP infantry unit: 1 unit per hex

Armor
2 SP armor unit: 3 units per hex
3 SP armor unit: 2 units per hex
4+ SP armor unit: 1 unit per hex

Steel Inferno by Micheal Reynolds
Operation Epsom involved 2 infantry brigades attacking side by side but in reality no more then 24 platoons or rougly 800 men led the attack--as John Keegan correctly stated in his book 6 armies in Normandy-no commander puts everything in theshop window

We need to get out of the mentality that armies concentrate units in small spaces they clearly do not and the game stacking rules are out of whack

rene

< Message edited by osiris -- 12/4/2012 7:23:18 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/5/2012 1:34:53 PM   
Otto von Blotto


Posts: 116
Joined: 7/18/2008
Status: offline 		Surely the game already does mimic the real world tactic's you are proposing, yes you can have more in a 250m hex in the game and real life but you will normally get larger causalities that is modeled in the game by the 12 strength points in a hex rule.

If someone stacks up they will draw my fire as I know I have a better chance of a hit and damage to them. Just because the game allows you to do something silly like stacking up too much strength in a single hex doesn't mean you have too force people to play a particular (correct) way and hard wire it into the game leave the player with some critical decisions to make.

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(in reply to osiris)
Post #: 2
RE: Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/6/2012 2:38:53 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 4098
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Status: offline 		Precisely, Otto von Blotto.

Jason Petho


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Petho Cartography

Mapping Military History

The website needs to be updated.

(in reply to Otto von Blotto)
Post #: 3
RE: Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/6/2012 6:28:31 PM   
MrRoadrunner


Posts: 853
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		I was also going to point out that a 250 meter hex is 250 x 250. There is depth to the hex?

Suggesting that a foxhole every 50 meters to avoid artillery fire assumes a defensive position only. As well as, one man per foxhole and foxholes only in the first 50 meters of the depth of the hex?

Some points are O.K. but is it worth changing for them?

RR

_____________________________

"Lord, give me the patience. If you just give me the strength I may need some bail money later."
"When the wicked rise to power, people go into hiding; but when the wicked perish, the righteous thrive." Proverbs 28:28

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 4
RE: Unrealistic Stacking rules: need change - 12/16/2012 1:22:49 PM   
VadeS

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 11/9/2012
Status: offline 		On the other hand in real world soldiers don't use dice roll to check their morale and fire effect

Like Otto said you are allowed to make things but it doesn't mean you have to do it.


(in reply to MrRoadrunner)
Post #: 5
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