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AIF Technical Issues: 8th Division

 
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AIF Technical Issues: 8th Division - 12/3/2012 2:35:36 AM   
el cid again

 

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There are some issues with the AIF.

This is one of two Australian Armies - the other being CMF -
AIF = Australian Imperial Force.

The unit I noticed was part of 7th Division slot 5975.
Two of its sub units (only) need redefinition (in stock and anything using stock data):
5979 & 5980.

Similarly, the 6th Division, slot 2952
has two sub units (only) needing redefinition (in stock and anything using stock data)
5956 & 5957.

There is nominally also a AIF 8th Division, slot 5981

I am unable to show it will ever appear in the game.

I only find three sub units - all of them battalions - which point at it - but even without them - it never shows up on the reinforcement schedule. These are named battalions and were indeed part of 8th Division - but I think they probably should not point to it. The division managed to form in spite of at least one of them becoming POWs until 1946. There may be other sub units - but I didn't find them. That would explain the unit not appearing anywhere.

This is much better than if the Indian Army was messed up - and it is fixed - at least re 6th and 7th Divisions - which would combined improperly.

The parent formation - slot 2706 - points at slot 2710. This may be correct - but if so - it imposes a rebuild problem - changing devices en masse. It is probably better to leave the divisions as they are than to convert them to divisions of probably lesser value.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 12/3/2012 9:42:07 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/3/2012 3:59:04 AM   
Alfred

 

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Another one of your inaccurate posts purporting to find something wrong with the code/database. For those of us who do actually play the game and have bothered to learn how it operates it is quite easy to pick up your misleading posts. Unfortunately newbies are not as well equipped to see through the inaccuracies.

1. No, I repeat, no unit which is created by amalgamating its subcomponent units, ever appears in the reinforcement schedule. That is the case with the 8th AIF just as it is with all the other similar units. I suppose at some stage in the future you will regale us all with your discovery that the 9th Ind Div (and the 11th Ind Div, and the 1st Aust Div, and the 2nd Aust Div etc etc etc) also does not appear on the reinforcement schedule.

2. Pray tell, any chance of you enlightening us as to why those battalions should not point to the 8th AIF. Contrary to what you post, the entire 8th AIF was formed before any of it's components became POW. Two brigades were sent to Malaya, the battalions of the third were sent sent to various barrier outposts.

3. Care to enlighten us as to why there is a need for any redefinition regarding sub units of the 6th and 7th AIF. Specifically what is "wrong" and what needs to be done to "correct" it.

Alfred

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/3/2012 5:47:14 AM   
JeffK


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nearly as good as the F4U arriving with only 2 machine guns and lots of bomblets.Just to make sure Sid is looking at the right data,

6th Australian Infantry Division consists of 16, 17 & 19 Infantry Bdes
7th Australian Infantry Division consists of 18, 21 & 25 Infantry Bdes
8th Australian Infantry Division consists of Gull, Sparrow & Lark Forces which make up 23 Infantry Bde plus 22 & 27 Infantry Bdes.

9th Australian Infantry Division arrives in 1 piece, but has 20, 24 & 26 Bdes.

Of course on arrival in theatre these neat organizations changed and the Brigades of 6,7 & 9 Divisions and the Militia intermingled when required. 16 & 17 Bdes were delayed in Ceylon for a few months and 19 Bde spent 12+ months in Darwin.



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(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 3
RE: AIF Technical Issues: 8th Division - 12/3/2012 9:42:28 AM   
el cid again

 

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Two of the brigades of 8th Division, slot 5981,

were in the data but far from Aussie units

22nd Brigade, slot 6639 and

27th Brigade, slot 6644

These two were listed as 8th division - and permit the division to form AS A WHOLE if they alone combine!

23rd Brigade is missing altogether,
but its parts, Lark, Gull and Sparrow battalions were present in the data

and even had 5981 as the parent unit
but that reference didn't work - so they don't show to players as part of 8th div and
do not appear on 8th division unit listings visible to players.

Another element, 2/4 MG battalion, is present but NOT listed as part of 8th div - it is correctly at Darwin.

I listed 2/4 MG battalion as part of 8th Division and created a new unit,

23rd Brigade in slot 6012

and made the three battalions subordinate to it.

The 8th Division Cavalry regiment was renamed 9th Division cavalry Regiment before the war began - so

IF you manage to assemble the 3 brigades and MG battalion, it will slowly reform as missing devices in the division formation.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 4
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/3/2012 9:50:23 AM   
el cid again

 

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Joined: 10/10/2005
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Dear Alfred:

If you had read carefully, you would have seen what is wrong with 6th and 7th divisions in my post.

The problem is the way two units for each division (the recon unit and the MG unit, slots listed) were defined.

The good news is that the three brigades for each division are properly defined and do not need redefinition.

The problem is that EVERY sub unit of a parent formation must present the devices in precisely the same slots for the
"combination" to work if a player takes the "recombine unit" option.

I was clear about this for the sake of anyone who actually wants to get the combined unit to show the total of the subordinate unit
devices. Left as is, the game will lump together the devices in the slots as if they were all identical to the device in the parent unit,
slot for slot.

Note that this might be done by a modder on purpose. And, in fact, with the parent formation, it "upgrades" to a later formation
which does NOT have the same devices in the same slots. That will cause the division to "convert" from the original device to the
later one - after time and if certain conditions permit the replacement devices to be fed into it. So it isn't always "wrong" to change
devices. It only needs to be done on purpose - because you intended to replace the original device with the new one. Not at random -
so as in the case above, you don't end up with support squads becoming weapons squads instead of adding where they should as
support squads to the combined formation, among several specific instances.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Another one of your inaccurate posts purporting to find something wrong with the code/database. For those of us who do actually play the game and have bothered to learn how it operates it is quite easy to pick up your misleading posts. Unfortunately newbies are not as well equipped to see through the inaccuracies.

1. No, I repeat, no unit which is created by amalgamating its subcomponent units, ever appears in the reinforcement schedule. That is the case with the 8th AIF just as it is with all the other similar units. I suppose at some stage in the future you will regale us all with your discovery that the 9th Ind Div (and the 11th Ind Div, and the 1st Aust Div, and the 2nd Aust Div etc etc etc) also does not appear on the reinforcement schedule.

2. Pray tell, any chance of you enlightening us as to why those battalions should not point to the 8th AIF. Contrary to what you post, the entire 8th AIF was formed before any of it's components became POW. Two brigades were sent to Malaya, the battalions of the third were sent sent to various barrier outposts.

3. Care to enlighten us as to why there is a need for any redefinition regarding sub units of the 6th and 7th AIF. Specifically what is "wrong" and what needs to be done to "correct" it.

Alfred


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 5
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/3/2012 11:43:50 AM   
JeffK


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Dearest Sid.

Your posts are far from clear, quoting slot numbers isnt full of information.

Maybe you should say that stock OOB is not correct and clearly explain.

Such info is always welcome. The AIF OOB is very wobbly and at start locations far from accurate.

8th Divisional Cavalry Regiment was not renamed before the war, it was formed in July 1940 and renamed 9th Divisional Cavalry Regiment in Feb 1941.

2/4 Machine Gun Battalion is not part of 8th Division, it is a Corps unit. The same goes for 2/1 and 2/3 MG Bns. It was standard practise for the MG & Pioneer Bns to fight with the same Division but like a US Tank Bn were attached to the Division, not assigned to be part of the Division.

Other odd units are 21/22 Fd Rgt, actually 2 seperate Field regts which merged long after the game shows, 2/16 Fd Rgt, cant find this but there was a 16 Field Rgt, Wren Force was disbanded in Aug 41 and should be Nauru Force, Heron Force was disbanded at the same time and should be Ocean (Is) Force. Plenty more to work on.

PS. All units of 8th Division were captured by the japanese on Singapore, Timor, Ambon & Rabaul. Those that survived this ordeal were released in 1945



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(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 6
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/3/2012 11:44:09 AM   
traskott

 

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From: Valladolid, Spain
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I have always been able to form the 8th AIF division at all my games... The trick is putting all together at the same hex ( difficult !!! ) .

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 7
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/3/2012 8:45:19 PM   
JeffK


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PS 6th Div Cav Rgt left its combat vehicles in Syria before returning to Australia which may explain why the devs (reasonably) decided it wasnt a combat capable unit when the Division returned. With the recent patches and the ability to choose which TO&E to use, maybe it should arrive in Australia as a reinforcement unit as it was rebuilt and served in the Darwin area. If you want to keep 6 Div at a "Desert" TO&E you get ^ Div Cav, if you want a Jungle Div it becomes 6 Cavalry (Commando) Rgt with 2/7, 2/9 & 2/10 Commando Sqns.

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Post #: 8
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/3/2012 10:09:28 PM   
traskott

 

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From: Valladolid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

PS 6th Div Cav Rgt left its combat vehicles in Syria before returning to Australia which may explain why the devs (reasonably) decided it wasnt a combat capable unit when the Division returned. With the recent patches and the ability to choose which TO&E to use, maybe it should arrive in Australia as a reinforcement unit as it was rebuilt and served in the Darwin area. If you want to keep 6 Div at a "Desert" TO&E you get ^ Div Cav, if you want a Jungle Div it becomes 6 Cavalry (Commando) Rgt with 2/7, 2/9 & 2/10 Commando Sqns.

What!!! How it is posible?

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 9
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/3/2012 10:48:18 PM   
dwg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
All units of 8th Division were captured by the japanese on Singapore, Timor, Ambon & Rabaul. Those that survived this ordeal were released in 1945


Quibbling I know, but parts of Sparrow Force linked up with 2 Independent Co (technically also part of Sparrow Force, but operating independently), went guerilla on Timor and were eventually evacuated in December 1942.

Getting back to the issue of recombining sub-units, the problem is the Bird Force units of 23 Brigade, which deployed as battalion groups with substantial reinforcement from non-8th Division support units. For instance, in addition to 2/40 Infantry, Sparrow Force included 2 Independent Company, 2/1 Heavy Btty RAA (to man the two 6" naval guns), British LAA units, Australian AT and Fortress Engineers and Signals and so on. Either you separate the non-8th Division support units from 2/40 Infantry, or you include them and have issues with recombining.

quote:

if you want a Jungle Div it becomes 6 Cavalry (Commando) Rgt with 2/7, 2/9 & 2/10 Commando Sqns.


I think the best way to handle the Cavalry (Commando) Regiments is to turn them into a small headquarters component (though whether you make it HQ, base force or LCU is a good question) and leave the Commando Squadrons as independent units, which best reflects actual usage.


(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 10
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/4/2012 10:59:21 AM   
Andy Mac

 

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I have read this thread 4 times and still dont understadn the issue.

I did the Aus ORBAT can someone explaimn the issue.

22nd and 27th Aus Bde plus the three Bns give a player the option of recombining to form 8th Aus Div - it was a choice we put in as some players will take different actions to history.

Its not a pain free option as Aus replacements are so limited that rebuilding 8th Div from different levels of rescued cadre will gut CW replacement levels for Brens, Vickers, AIF squads etc but the player has the choice.

As jeff said the three bdes are represented the reason 2 are in the malaya section of the loc file is because when i was building ORBAT it was easier to have all Malaya units in ione place when I did the AI

To recombine the 8th Div you need to have

22nd Bde
27th Bde
and the three bird Bns

UNLESS one of the above 5 units is totally destroyed.

There must be no fragments anywhere else of these units and they must all be of the same HQ and in same base.

So can someone please articulate what the issue is thats wrong with the above as its WAD at present.


(in reply to dwg)
Post #: 11
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/4/2012 11:02:18 AM   
Andy Mac

 

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Bird Bns are all slightly stronger than standard Bns as they have some extra attachments if recombined into the 8th Div they are surplus non toe devices so they are added as extra non toe devices tot eh bottom of the Div strength.

Whent he TOE upgrades in late 42 to Jungle TOE these extra devices are no longer part of new TOE so as part of re org of TOE routine they are removed at this point

Again all WAD not sure of the issue

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 12
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/4/2012 11:12:03 AM   
Andy Mac

 

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I think the AIF as opposed to CMF OOB is pk jeff whats the issue specifically ??

CMF starting locations are ok in terms of theatre i.e. West, North, South, East Australia - I would concede some of the starting towns/bases within those broad locations may be a little off but its not material to starting position if a Bn starts at Wagga Wagga that should start at Canberra for example

21/22 Field Regts same issue as with Indian ORBAT because of the number of Arty units included in things like Motor Bde TOE's and AIF Div TOE's i started from the TOTAL number of available field Regts then removed those used by other TOE's and added only indpt arty regts that were in exess of those used in TOE's

Units represented independently were picked to best reflect the available capability and to broadly model the capacity at various times


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


Such info is always welcome. The AIF OOB is very wobbly and at start locations far from accurate.

2/4 Machine Gun Battalion is not part of 8th Division, it is a Corps unit. The same goes for 2/1 and 2/3 MG Bns. It was standard practise for the MG & Pioneer Bns to fight with the same Division but like a US Tank Bn were attached to the Division, not assigned to be part of the Division.

Other odd units are 21/22 Fd Rgt, actually 2 seperate Field regts which merged long after the game shows, 2/16 Fd Rgt, cant find this but there was a 16 Field Rgt, Wren Force was disbanded in Aug 41 and should be Nauru Force, Heron Force was disbanded at the same time and should be Ocean (Is) Force. Plenty more to work on.



(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 13
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/4/2012 3:16:04 PM   
Gary D


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Andy,

Started a Scenario 1 game a few weeks back and just recombined all the 8th ID components at Port Moresby. Since the Bird battalions all have CMF sections and the 22/27 Brigades both have AIF sections, when you combine them the result is the conversion of the AIF sections to disabled CMF sections.

Not sure if this is what you intended. Combining the division results in a large, but temporary reduction in assault value. At PM which is a "malarial" hex it is taking quite some time to rebuild all the disabled sections and costing a lot of supply.

Altogether nothing earth shattering or game breaking, just rather peculiar.

All the best!
Gary


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Post #: 14
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/6/2012 2:57:38 AM   
dwg

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I have read this thread 4 times and still dont understadn the issue.



I'm not certain there is one, just people getting up to speed with what were 8 Division assets and how widely scattered they were.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 15
RE: AIF Technical Issues - 12/6/2012 6:10:20 AM   
JeffK


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From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I think the AIF as opposed to CMF OOB is pk jeff whats the issue specifically ??

CMF starting locations are ok in terms of theatre i.e. West, North, South, East Australia - I would concede some of the starting towns/bases within those broad locations may be a little off but its not material to starting position if a Bn starts at Wagga Wagga that should start at Canberra for example

21/22 Field Regts same issue as with Indian ORBAT because of the number of Arty units included in things like Motor Bde TOE's and AIF Div TOE's i started from the TOTAL number of available field Regts then removed those used by other TOE's and added only indpt arty regts that were in exess of those used in TOE's

Units represented independently were picked to best reflect the available capability and to broadly model the capacity at various times


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


Such info is always welcome. The AIF OOB is very wobbly and at start locations far from accurate.

2/4 Machine Gun Battalion is not part of 8th Division, it is a Corps unit. The same goes for 2/1 and 2/3 MG Bns. It was standard practise for the MG & Pioneer Bns to fight with the same Division but like a US Tank Bn were attached to the Division, not assigned to be part of the Division.

Other odd units are 21/22 Fd Rgt, actually 2 seperate Field regts which merged long after the game shows, 2/16 Fd Rgt, cant find this but there was a 16 Field Rgt, Wren Force was disbanded in Aug 41 and should be Nauru Force, Heron Force was disbanded at the same time and should be Ocean (Is) Force. Plenty more to work on.




Posted in Land OOB & AI thread

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