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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 7:41:53 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Can the Allies handle 7th IJA Division at Attu Island? Yes, on condition that the KB is in the Bay of Bengal to give me the needed time. I'll have at least 900 AV available at the time of an invasion. If the KB is in the Bay, the Allies should be able to pummel the island by air and sea. It will be challenging, but I think it is doable.

Everything hinges on the KB now. It's almost as though John took precautions in the Aleutians to see to his defenses knowing that his carriers were not going to be available for awhile. We'll see.


The way you guys play, the KB should get frequent flyer miles.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 7:56:05 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Can the Allies handle 7th IJA Division at Attu Island? Yes, on condition that the KB is in the Bay of Bengal to give me the needed time. I'll have at least 900 AV available at the time of an invasion. If the KB is in the Bay, the Allies should be able to pummel the island by air and sea. It will be challenging, but I think it is doable.

Everything hinges on the KB now. It's almost as though John took precautions in the Aleutians to see to his defenses knowing that his carriers were not going to be available for awhile. We'll see.


The way you guys play, the KB should get frequent flyer miles.


I suspect this is at the heart of CR diabolical plan .. trade fuel for Frequent Flyer Miles ... then suddenly the IJ are at want someday and the real objectives of the Allies will unfold [It is not Burma since CR has not advanced but instead is pinning IJA divisions in the jungle, I am not convinced it is Alaska either but he has pinned more IJ forces here .. ] Somewhere Someday we will know the real plan

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 8:03:46 PM   
Canoerebel


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It's July 1942, so I'm not expecting to win the game this month or this season or this year. But I'm pushing buttons, knowing that eventually I'm going to catch John out of position. Him sending the KB and BBs sprinting around the map is a big advantage since it (1) tuckers him out; (2) uses fuel; (3) he might blunder into something; (4) eventually I'm going to have assets in place to take major advantage of an opportunity; (5) he's not really able to implement his own dashing plans, which in early and mid '42 was still a big possibility.

Burma is central to my long term plans. Alaska will be if the opportunity is there. If it isn't there, I'm not likely to push that vector at any point short of '45 (or desperation on my part, should the wheels come off).

In addition to Burma (and China), my long-term plan is to push across CenPac - commencing in '43. Anything I can do to attrit his carrires, BBs and CAs is going to help the cause.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 8:10:27 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's an area where my strategy is definitely open to criticism and Monday morning quarterbacking. I took my line and stubbornly refused to go any further. I missed a chance to try to take and hold the Upper Burma cities. While I'm not positive this was the right move, I do have to live with the decision, which is to create a killing zone where the Allies can draw in the enemy and fight effectively. With good terrain, good interior lines (John already has some major hexside issues for his advanced divisions), good units (and lots more on the way) and big airfields in proximity, I think I've established the foundation. (But can I execute effectively?) I'm also fortunate that thus far supply hasn't been a problem. India is flush and its trickling forward.


For your engagement in Burma, will Ramree supply to your troops in the jungle be disrupted if John has hex control of those two hexes on the trail to Akyab? I'm referring to the hex he's currently in and either the one "NW" of there or the one (with your unit in it) that it looks like he's moving to.

Seems to me, this would block Ramree's LOS to your units, but then again, I don't know how this magical Ramree supply situation works.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 8:43:34 PM   
GreyJoy


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168,000 hits against...what? barely 48,000?...puffff....


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 8:54:46 PM   
Canoerebel


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Yeah, I'm sure IJ units adjacent to Ramree will block supply. But it will be a LONG time before I could put enough supply there to make a difference. Between now and then there is an immense air, sea and land battle to be fought. It will last months, I think. Fortunately, it seems that supply is making it through the jungle via the big bases at Akyab, Cox's, Chittagong, Imphal, etc. I have a zillion supply in India - over 500k at Bombay; over 1,000k at Karachi - and all of it's moving forward nicely to the front.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 8:59:32 PM   
GreyJoy


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Dan, i think john will be able to statlemate you in Burma in 1942, only transfering here several divisions that will be missing somewhere else.
However, if you can keep your present positions in the jungle, in 1943 you'll be able to push forward. Just remember: with stacking limits what you'll need is a LOT of artillery and lots of tanks(lots of firepower, very little stacking cost)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 9:17:28 PM   
Canoerebel


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I think the Allies can fight effectively in Burma in '42. I have big airfields close. My fighter pilots have gained a great deal of experience at the expense of Japan (the Allies are 1,500 ahead in aircraft already). I have alot of good RAF and USAAF bombers available. The Allies alot of good units already at the front and more coming. Japan has come too far forward and is going to have trouble with getting outflanked or missing battles. That's my read, but I've made reads in the past that proved too optimistic. However, I just want a place to fight efficiently and that I have.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 11:17:29 PM   
Canoerebel


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7/26/42

Bay of Bengal: Continuing to heat up. An IJN carrier force springs into the bay's center and hammers one USN DD, one PC and five xAK (loaded with supply, drat it). The Illustrious TF is probably safe to make Diamond Harbor and I don't think she was sighted. I've spit my fighters between (A) Diamond Harbor/Calcutta; (B) Chittagong; (C) Akyab; (D) Ramree Island. Akyab gets the most and also the bulk of the combat ships. I don't think John will chance a KB raid on a port yet, especially since his LBA got spanked over Ramree yet again (he lost 40+ aircraft on the day, the Allies lost 11). So much going on in this theater. It's gonna be hot. It's gonna be tense. It's gonna be fun.

Pacific: A wandering IJN sub picks off an ACM near Seward. SigInt that 2nd China Assault Division is at Umnak (I thought it was at Adak, so I wonder what is actually there?). The Japanese easily take Tarawa. Abemama is the last of the Allies bases John has to recapture. USN carriers 36 hexes east of Dunedin and 41 west of Tahiti.

Edited to Add: I don't think this is the full KB. I think it's the same group that Junyo was part of before she got torpedoed a week ago.


< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/18/2013 11:18:43 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 11:39:54 PM   
Cribtop


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Sounds like his "slow CVs" force. Could be an opportunity for you, really. Try to get him in range of LBA string bags. Is it Junyo, Hiyo and Kaga? Or is it Junyo, Hiyo plus CVLs?

RE Adak, I'm more concerned than you about taking the base. IIRC, that is a x3 terrain base (maybe just x2). If he has good forts in that terrain, you could be looking at a long enough siege that the world traveling KB has time to get back around, so to speak.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 4/18/2013 11:40:50 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 11:43:58 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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After briefly reading updates on both AAR's I am confused.

How can BOTH of you be winning at the same time?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 11:47:46 PM   
Canoerebel


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Cap, that sounds about right. There have been other comments in here noting that both John and I seem to be equally optimistic and enthused about our respective performances to this point. All I can say is that I'm right and John's wrong. That's my contention and I'm sticking to it!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 11:49:49 PM   
Canoerebel


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Junyo was knocked out of commission by a sub TT roughly 10 days ago. Her aircraft have since been fighting from land. I think this may be Hiyo and CVLs or CVEs.

I can't imagine John coming close to my LBA. He's just had one bad experience after another. But perhaps he'll give one shot at overwhelming me at one point by using combined LBA and carrier air. But I doubt it. Not until more carriers arrive.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/18/2013 11:51:04 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

After briefly reading updates on both AAR's I am confused.

How can BOTH of you be winning at the same time?




I've been noticing this trend for a while!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 12:05:26 AM   
Cribtop


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CR, if you wave the red flag of the RN CVs in front of the bull, he just may charge. Especially given that IJ players generally salivate at the prospect of cornering Allied fleets at the top of the Bay of Bengal.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 4/19/2013 12:06:05 AM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 2:28:14 AM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
Again, dont listen to all of the monday morning quaterbacks, they have nothing to lose in this game and (on both sides) seem to want to force an action that you wouldnt see in their PBEM.


Yes. Like those that give advice about how to use bomber and transport aircraft, express opinions about lines of advance through the Aleutians (and pace thereof) and disappointment regarding abortive offensives through the Gilberts.

He's right, Dan. You should ignore these people's advice.


He's right, Dan. You should ignore these people's advice.

So this gets ignored as well???



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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 3:27:14 AM   
Canoerebel


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So John feels good about his position, right?  How?

1. He hasn't taken any coveted territory (New Caledonia is his only conquest beyond the bare minimum of what Japan will take in most games).

2.  He hasn't attrited the Allied OOB to any appreciable extent.

3.  Since June he's been racing around the map attending to fires that I started, thus losing the initiative on whatever plans he might have wanted to implement.

4.  He's been his own worst enemy (long-delayed conquests of Singapore, Clark Field, Batavia and Manado; complete mismanagement of the air war; etc.)

5.  By exerting maximum possible pressure - massed infantry and most of his air force for many months - he finally took Changsha, but then permitted the isolated Chinese army to escape back into the MLR.

I haven't done anything flashy in the game yet.  I've been concentrating on logistics, laying the foundaiton for future operations.  The Allies have massive concentrations of men, aircraft and supply in India, Oz, and Hawaii/West Coast.  I am pretty much ready now to move when the right opporunity comes along. John's been alot about flash, and I give him credit for attending to some of my moves, but he hasn't done the slightest thing the upset or molest the foundation for future Allied success.

While I have had a few trying moments - China and the KB raid around Oz - I haven't broken a sweat yet. I"m still in my comfort zone. Compared to recent matches against Q-Ball and PzH....well, there's no comparison.  Part of that's due to this not being Scenario Two. 

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 4:03:35 AM   
Chickenboy


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You're being pretty flippant about some of your losses to date, CR. Those "speed bumps" you've thrown onto unsupported islands in the Gilberts may have gained you a week or two in the scheme of things, but I have a tough time seeing any RL commander so ordering the repeated extermination of thousands of friendly troops.

Leaving that garrison at Luganville was callous (to be charitable). Putting an expendable regiment on Tarawa doubly so. Again in the Aleutians. What's that-30,000 troops? Gone. POWs. Dead. Yes, you may be able to make that up in the long run. Yes, it may serve your short to intermediate term strategic goals. But I have a hard time stomaching that sort of insensitivity to one's troops-Allied or otherwise.

So, to be fair-I'm unconvinced of your adherence to 'real life' stresses of command. You're not breaking a sweat after seeing 30,000 of your forward deployed troops crushed? Time to get a new perspective, mate.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 4:45:20 AM   
Canoerebel


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Seriously?

Luganville stood for seven months, including repelling one invasion and attracting at least two BBs for two months.

The Gilberts stood for seven weeks, drawing most of the KB and four BBs throughout that period.

Akutan stood for four months against three BBs.

Not sure how my attitude towards these stands can be characterized as "cavalier."  I just think they were well worth it.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 8:24:36 AM   
obvert


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I wouldn't argue that the moves on the Gilberts combined with other operations at the time at Ramree and in OZ didn't serve an important function for the Allies. The time it has taken Japan to deal with those multiple issues very early on has cost some time and possible preparation for what comes next. There is a psychological function as well, having to defend in mid-42 not being in your opponent's pre-game plans, most likely.

When you say though that this is not scenario 2, you're correct. It's a lot more stuff for Japan than scenario 2, at least on the naval front and in terms of the kinds of troops most useful for quick invasions and strong defenses. I'm no expert on the OOB in the scenario, but I keep getting eyebrow raising moments when I see these multiple atoll defense units, when I notice the several extra CVs, CA, CL that are in the OOB. Having constructed this lineup I would imagine your opponent knows his own style, knows he likes to run everywhere willy-nilly to engage naval forces, but that he's built himself some protection (from himself, you might say) within the OOB.

One thing John does very well is switch gears to meet threats and engage them with everything he has available. By getting under your skin with his lack of strategic goals, allowing you to become overconfident in your position, he may have done himself a great service if you then push ahead early and before the Allies have overwhelming power. Time will tell.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 10:40:45 AM   
Nemo121


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quote:

You're being pretty flippant about some of your losses to date, CR. Those "speed bumps" you've thrown onto unsupported islands in the Gilberts may have gained you a week or two in the scheme of things, but I have a tough time seeing any RL commander so ordering the repeated extermination of thousands of friendly troops.


Well, I think this should read, "any RL WESTERN commander". The Germans and Soviets quite frequently sent troops into positions in which they were certain to be lost e.g. the Festungen along the Atlantic coast in 1944, the Festungen throughout Russia in late '43 and 44 ( weirdly enough Hitler was probably correct about the Festungen in 42 --- it just goes to show that a broken clock is still correct twice a day etc. So long as the strategic gains won by the sacrifice were commensurate with the sacrifice then those repeated exterminations were entirely justified.

To put it another way.... People often make a joke about the Soviets clearing mines by ordering men of the Penal Battalions to march through the minefield. Obviously this is a gross simplification since they didn't actually usually simply march through the minefield but they certainly didn't have equipment and were forced to clear mines far more quickly than was safe. The end result was that the Penal Battalions were a means of clearing mines very rapidly, by largely untrained troops without the use of any specialised equipment. In the absence of trained engineers with mine detecting equipment and/or if time was of the essence I would argue that the Soviet ordering of troops in to almost literally "march the mines clear" was perfectly justified. So long as clearing that piece of terrain in 20 minutes instead of in 3 to 4 hours of waiting around for engineers to arrive and clear them was worth the 50 or 100 dead then ordering them to march through the minefield was precisely the correct course of action and, indeed, NOT ordering them to clear it would actually have been negligent.

Western commanders mightn't think that way but Western commanders didn't conduct the majority of the ground combat during WW2. The majority of ground combat occured in China and the Eastern Front and in both regions the routine ordering of units into sacrificial redoubts OR into suicidal charges etc was not at all uncommon. Westerners make a joke out of the "incompetence" behind these charges etc but that's too easy an answer. Sometimes those suicidal charges were designed to use plentiful resources ( untrained, unarmed peasantry ) whilst protecting valuable resources ( trained engineers ) and, I would argue, they were precisely the right thing to do in many of those situations.


In this situation it is a pity that the invasions haven't stuck. CR should look into making them stick better next time but if the gain was, in his mind, worth the cost then he should continue ordering such operations in future.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 4/19/2013 10:43:18 AM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 11:04:53 AM   
GreyJoy


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Nemo, it's always a pleasure to read you!

My opinion is that this game can be played in several different ways. The observations of Chickenboy imply a "role game" (is it correct in english?) phisolophy, where you pretend to act as you were in a RL environement.
That's just one of the ways to play WITP. Another way is to simply play it as a game, without any ethical or moral implications.

So i think as long as CR thinks the sacrifice of all those brave eletronic men was worth the delay imposed to John, then i see no problem in it.

I agree that in RL the americans would have never sent a marine regiment in a pure suicidal invasion.

But, at the same time, the americans would have never sent waves of PTs in suicidal roles to minesweep a heavily fortified enemy port (a thing that many allied players do). There are many many examples of things we usually do playin this game that RL commanders could have never allowed to happen.


Strategically speaking i do agree that forcing John to commit lots of resources for the Gilberts or Lungaville was a viable strategy. But I think that you should have had supported those invasions a little more. Simply landing there and abbandoning those atolls, without providing any kind of consequential support, let john retake them easily, while you could have forced him into an attritional battle that may have served your final goal a little better, imho.

The problem here is that you decided to go for Tarawa when the KB was at Noumea...damn too close! If the kB would have been in Western Oz, for example, you could have had the time to reinforce those atolls and fill them with SDBs and Fighters...thus creating an interesting environement for an attritional battle

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 11:19:57 AM   
Houtje

 

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I agree with CR's analysis: up to the end of 1942 the IJ player can be expected to have the strategic initiative and force the Allied player to react. CR's various operations (Gilberts, Birma) have reversed this: maybe John had some ideas for large operations in 1942, maybe not, but these will now be much harder to carry out, as the advantage in CVs, troops, A/C etc. is coming to an end (even though this mod may give the IJ player more leeway).

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong: wasn't the 1st Mar. Div. more or less left alone on Guadalcanal for a long while? I believe I read in Bergerud's 'Touched with Fire' that some leaders (King?) accepted that they might have had to surrender and were thus, in a sense, 'expendable'.

Just my thoughts, of course.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 12:27:59 PM   
Canoerebel


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If memory serves, General Vandergrift at Guadalcanal had written up his final retreat and surrender plan. He entrusted it to one of his officers (Merrill Twining?) on strict pledge of secrecy.

I had nearly the full 8th Marine Regiment at Akutan Island, but only detachments of RCT at Makin, Tarawa and Abemama - the total at those three were much less than a division. At Luganville, I had an Australian brigade.

Here's my point. I'm playing a "shock and awe" opponent. Not only that, he's the architect of the enhanced mod we are playing. That's what I wanted, so this isn't a complaint, but rather just to give context here.

Instead of hunkering down and retiring in Sir Robin fashion, the Allies have parried and thrust here and there. Instead of using my combat ships, I'm using amphibious operations that create redoubts and provoke violent responses by my "shock and awe" opponent. This is exactly what I want, and I think it's a tremendously effective counter strategy. I've lost very little shipping in doing so, but John's lost a heckuva lot of destroyers and aircraft.

At the same time I'm provoking and prodding John here and there, I've also done much of heavy lifiting to arrange for defense (early in the game) and to prepare to go on the offensive (when the time comes). I've also created what I think is an efficient attritional theater (Burma/Bay of Bengal).

So, yes, I think John has been thoroughly outdone - by his own hyper aggressiveness, lack of good planning (failed amphibious operations), and solid Allied strategy.

Am I too modest?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 12:56:14 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Seriously?



Yes. Seriously.

I try to put myself in the emotional context of a commander of the time. Not that I could possibly know what that's like, but I try my best to do what they would have done IRL and, if possible, feel what they felt IRL. That's part of the game that I like best! In that context, there's no way that the Allies would so deploy troops with the intent of having them killed or captured as you've so done.

Witness the wailing and gnashing of teeth brought about by the surrender of the Wake Island garrison. That was only 1,500 military and civilians. Their loss (and the loss of wake) caused consternation through the highest offices in the land and were real morale blows to the American people in that dark time. You've magnified that 20 fold and apparently feel little to no impact from their loss. Call it 'callous', 'cavalier' or 'irrational exuberance' if you like-I call it detached from reality.

Sure, you've sold them for time. That's not disputed. I'm just wondering if you could have held John in check without their loss. I guess we'll never know...

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 1:05:45 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Am I too modest?


No danger in that.

I think, on the whole, you are being put in a good position here. Quite frankly (you'll notice I don't have a problem with frankness ) I don't know whether this is due to your "brilliant leadership" or John's genuinely poor play.

GreyJoy said it well I think. I look at the role of commanders as part of the game-an important part that I get a real charge out of. Zuikaku got torpedoed? I feel visceral illness. The 5th infantry division got whacked or (worse yet) sunk at sea on transports? I question my ability to carry on early and often. You're not there-and that's OK-but you're not feeling the responsibility to my digital guys that I'd feel.

I hope that makes sense.

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 4/19/2013 1:11:46 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 1:14:16 PM   
Houtje

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy



In that context, there's no way that the Allies would so deploy troops with the intent of having them killed or captured as you've so done.




I sympathize with feeling for pixel troopers, but I don't agree that CR had "the intent of having them killed or captured". The intent was to engender a response from John and frustrate him. It worked, and a further, unintended, result was that the troops were killed/captured. It's an instantiation of the Principle of Double Effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_double_effect

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 1:28:44 PM   
Canoerebel


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I am not commanding men. I am not pretending that I am commanding men. I am playing chess. John is playing chess. I'm trying to win. Part of trying to win is to use my troops efficiently - to not send them in harm's way unless it serves a purpose. I'm not deploying them with the intent of getting them killed. I'm deploying them in a fluid situation in which there's risk and reward.

I feel a visceral illness when Enterprise gets hit, but not because I pretend there are men on that ship. It's because she's so valuable. The fact that I'm familiar with her real history adds to the experience, yes, but I am not playing as though there are little electronic men aboard.

We each have our own approach to the game. I understand why some folks enjoy the pixeltroopen aspect (I know Chez played with that philosophy), but I don't understand criticism for playing this as a three-dimensional game of chess where the only thing that gets hurt is John's pride or my pride.

Seriously?

(in reply to Houtje)
Post #: 1528
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 1:32:09 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 9776
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
In this situation it is a pity that the invasions haven't stuck. CR should look into making them stick better next time but if the gain was, in his mind, worth the cost then he should continue ordering such operations in future.


Yes! I agree that "making things stick" in '42 - or at least the first 3/4ths of the year - is something I need to work on (and I am).

I did plan to make these stick unless John threw the kitchen sink at me. He did, so I didn't. But I won the contest because he threw the kitchen sink at me.

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 1529
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 4/19/2013 1:49:22 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 9776
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
7/27/42

Bay of Bengal: An IJ sub misses a shot at Illustrious. The IJN carriers pull back a back to the tip of Andaman Island. No enemy air raids. Ramree airfield to size two and supply up to 2k. I agree that usually it's an IJ dream to have good Allied ships trapped in the Bay of Bengal. Here, though, the Allies have big airfields and lots of good fighters. I think the Allies can smash Japan carrier air power if Joh takes the bait and comes, so I've dangled tantalizing bait.

Burma: An IJA division and 7th Indian Division are in the same hex south (true) of Katha. But the Allies control all but one hexside and have interdicted road and rail to Myitkyina.

NoPac: More SigInt: Karafuto Mixed Brigade is aboard a maru bound for Umnak and is prepping for Cold Bay. 2nd Air Flotilla also at Umnak.

CenPac: CA San Francisco TF just reached Pearl (she had been posted down around Pago Pago for quite some time).

SoPac: Enemy subs nosing around Pago Pago and Fiji. USN carriers about 25 hexes from Tahiti.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 1530
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