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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/17/2013 11:27:11 PM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This is a funny topic.

The OS Mountians aren't special; they just have more photos. They were very, very hard to walk across. Stipulated. Lots of nice pictures of how hard it was. They had good PR agents. But if someone wants to make a deal of this in the game, if they're honest, they also never, ever let tanks or arty or AA units move through jungle except on gray or yellow roads. Never fight off road, never cross the jungle. OK, maybe, just maybe, if they have a combat engineer unit with them in the hex at all times. Not an engineer unit mind you, but realio trulio combat engineers laying corduroy roads. How many miles of corduroy road can a good combat engineer unit lay in a day? Three miles? When it's not monsoon?

I prefer the Japanese come over the OS Mountians. You can see them coming for a long time.


I assume you havent been there.

But the heavy equipment in a jungle has relevance, but when then get into "All jungle is not the same".
We would need rules for another dozen terrain types.

Whatever the JFB does like this, comes back when the AFB is marching through Burma, Indo China, Phillipines etc

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 12:16:48 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

Whats the problem with marching a Division across the Owen Stanleys, my only comment is that it has to be in COMBAT status, not MOVE


Communication depends on context. The context of my conversation is that CR feels strongly about crossing the OS Mountains. That the conditions should be as such that the IJ are encouraged to amphib land ... Your particular constraint is combat mode (1/2 speed) and a stacking restriction .. I am sure others have a range of opinions. However, do not confuse my stating of the parameeters for my discussion with a stance of what I think should be .. two very different discussoins entirely ..

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 12:22:02 AM   
Crackaces


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quote:

AFB is marching through Burma


The AFB's did do this .. a la Operation Extended Captial. The problem was that Mountbatten's staff was convinced it was impossible until the IJ did it and seiged Imphal .. I do love the pictures of the OS Mountains in a World at War showing the troops making step by step in the mud ...

I am now convinced that trudging through Burma as an AFB is a bad idea .. it is almost gamey because it is so hard to defend -- at least in scenario #1. Move a couple of of US divisions and buy out key Commonwealth forces (if by house rule) and one has the game locked up ...

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 6:10:24 AM   
gmoney

 

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I know this reply is a little late, but subs can sometimes make multiple attacks against a target while submerged even against escorted targets. I know this as a fact having just experienced it in my own game- a dutch sub made 2x2TT attacks on a crippled CVL finally tagging it with the second 2 torps, after a 'Torpedoes miss' message flashed. Also the sub was short 4 torpedoes after the attack. The CVL was escorted by an ASW equipped CL in the Japanese Iron Man Scen, with the beta patches applied.

Just figured I'd throw this out there in case it comes in question again sometime in the future.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 1:18:25 PM   
Canoerebel


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2/10/42
 
NoPac:  Idaho, Warspite, Chester and Chicago bombard Umnak Island.  Damage inflicted is all "non-combat, engineers and vehicles" in small quantities.  I take this as a strong (but not absolute) indication that there is minimal AV ashore.  I have an amphibious TF about four days out.  Trying to decide whether to chance a winter invasion.  Elswhere, Mavis patrols catch sight of all the TFs, including carriers, and more ineffective sorties by Mavis bombers.  Far to the west, a USN CL/DD force is nearing the Kuriles with no detection reported.  The plan is to try to catch some merchants at Sikhalin Island.  The Allies will bombard Umnak again tonight.  The carriers, which are just to the south of Akutan, will begin their move to the West Coast tonight.  Five enemy subs in and around Akutan. 

Reading the Tea Leaves:  John's Email Message -  "How is that SYS Dam up North? I like to grab my initial bases but then do nothing until the winter is ‘done.’"  My Interpretation of What John is Saying and what he is REALLY Saying:  "You're nuts to sail around Arctic Waters in winter.  Nuts!  I wouldn't do such a thing.  But my carriers are even now en route to put a stop to your little game."  P.S.  Sys damage on my carriers after weeks in NoPac?  Two with zero, one with one, one with two.

SoPac:  Since the KB retired to the north, last seen near the Santa Cruz Islands a week ago, the Allies have resumed supply runs to important outposts.  The furthest John has come is Lunga and one of the Fruti Islands.  QE is maybe four days away from Los Angeles.

Oz:  Shifting around some troops and adjusting prep where necessary.  Prep focuses on Melbourne and Sydney, but some troops are moving to the west coast to offer a semblance of protection at Perth and vicinity.

Capetown:  The first Americal regiment arrives at Capetown in four days.  Very soon I have to choose:  "Oz or India?"

India: An enemy sub showed up at Addu a few days ago.  Several other subs raided small merchant shipping between Goa and Bombay.  A couple of small merchants are running to Port Blair.  One actually made it and dropped off some supply, but I don't think this effort will be very successful over the long haul.

India or Oz:  Assuming that John has a major Phase II objective (likely, but not a certainty, especially given what I think is some disarray or uncertainty in the enemy high command at the moment), one of these is his likely objective.  I'm not sure which yet.  Short term, I feel certain he'll come for Port Blair and the Perth region.  I won't contest either move with combat ships.

China:  MLR remains intact.  John is working to find a weakness to exploit.  I'm trying to counter.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 1:27:17 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This is a funny topic.

The OS Mountians aren't special; they just have more photos. They were very, very hard to walk across. Stipulated. Lots of nice pictures of how hard it was. They had good PR agents. But if someone wants to make a deal of this in the game, if they're honest, they also never, ever let tanks or arty or AA units move through jungle except on gray or yellow roads. Never fight off road, never cross the jungle. OK, maybe, just maybe, if they have a combat engineer unit with them in the hex at all times. Not an engineer unit mind you, but realio trulio combat engineers laying corduroy roads. How many miles of corduroy road can a good combat engineer unit lay in a day? Three miles? When it's not monsoon?

I prefer the Japanese come over the OS Mountians. You can see them coming for a long time.


I assume you havent been there.

No. But I've been in a couple of types of jungle and rainforest, I've been on WWII "invasion islands", and I've climbed mountains. No question then the OSes are perhaps at the top of the list of the worst operational mountains of the war. The Hump was worse, but they didn't walk across. My point is, though, that if the OSes are called out, several other in-game compromises should be as well. A point I understand you got from the below.

But the heavy equipment in a jungle has relevance, but when then get into "All jungle is not the same".
We would need rules for another dozen terrain types.

True. Mangrove swamp is not rainforest is not old growth teak forest is not island palms/vines on volcanic debris. In addition to jungle the game allows rapid movement across rice paddy/dike geographies in Indo-China, which the USA found out was not conductive to armored operations in any big way.





< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 1/18/2013 1:28:14 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 1:31:17 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

AFB is marching through Burma


The AFB's did do this .. a la Operation Extended Captial. The problem was that Mountbatten's staff was convinced it was impossible until the IJ did it and seiged Imphal ..


Yes and no. Extended Capital was very late against an exhausted, undersupplied, cut-off Japanese force. It was conducted on good roads for the most part by large, late-war armored divisions, and it went down roads taking cites with an objective of Rangoon, not across dense jungle as the game allows for tanks. The game represents armor-on-roads very well IMO for the scale. Taking armor and especialy large gun tubes through jungle is too easy in the game. But it's the same for both sides.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 4:08:25 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
NoPac:  Far to the west, a USN CL/DD force is nearing the Kuriles with no detection reported.  The plan is to try to catch some merchants at Sikhalin Island.  The Allies will bombard Umnak again tonight. 

Bold move! You have to go north of the Kuriles but then the airfields there will not be expanded much yet. Still, you could face lots of seaplanes/flying boats.

What I am wondering is how the DDs will have enough fuel to get back to a safe area to refuel? Are you using the 8000 NM range Bensons? I'd save those for CV escort.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 4:33:35 PM   
Canoerebel


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The CL/DD force departed Pearl Harbor about four days ago, followed by a replenishment TF.  But there are other replenishment TFs south of Kodiak.  Besides that, I think the ships have enough fuel to make it back to Kodiak without replenishing.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 5:01:21 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The CL/DD force departed Pearl Harbor about four days ago, followed by a replenishment TF.  But there are other replenishment TFs south of Kodiak.  Besides that, I think the ships have enough fuel to make it back to Kodiak without replenishing.


Mind the mines.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 5:07:58 PM   
Canoerebel


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Good thought, but my ships go in unless they draw a detection level (which is likely, but not certain).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 7:50:46 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

quote:

AFB is marching through Burma


The AFB's did do this .. a la Operation Extended Captial. The problem was that Mountbatten's staff was convinced it was impossible until the IJ did it and seiged Imphal ..


Yes and no. Extended Capital was very late against an exhausted, undersupplied, cut-off Japanese force. It was conducted on good roads for the most part by large, late-war armored divisions, and it went down roads taking cites with an objective of Rangoon, not across dense jungle as the game allows for tanks. The game represents armor-on-roads very well IMO for the scale. Taking armor and especialy large gun tubes through jungle is too easy in the game. But it's the same for both sides.


You bring out an excellent point here along with your PM, in that there is a dyanisim of capabilites from 1942 - 1945. The Brits not only did not have a clue that pentrating the jungle was possible as proved later by teh IJ but did not have the capability to build trails in the jungle until 1944 - 1945. Interesting thought .. but again both sides are constrained.

I guess the game represents for the OS mountains a "Guns of the South" scenario where as some external factor gives both sides histroically impossible attrubutes ... the only thing .. in the Guns of the South only the South gets the AK-47's advantage

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 8:53:10 PM   
AcePylut


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I can only believe that people are aware of the problems in the Owen Stanley's because of real history. I wonder how many other hexes in the WITP map are "realistically impossible to cross, but possible in the game" hexes that we aren't aware of because there was no WW2 history there. The Owen Stanleys sets off alarms in folks, but I'd bet there are many other hexes that are equally impossible to 'support an army' that don't set off alarms, that would, if we were aware of them.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 8:57:52 PM   
JeffK


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Just most of non-coastal New Guinea for starters.

Maybe we get more exposure to the inland here, but the experiences of II/126 Inf on the Kapa-Kapa trail, Kanga Force at Wau-Bululo set the scene. Then the Australians in New Guinea make most of the inland treks while the US Forces played the amphibious hooks. The terrain had much to do with the Australian Army creating a Jungle Div TOE.

Quest for michaelm, You have a full strength Division in (for example) Pt Moresby. Jungle hexes are impassable to this force. But a button enables you to create a light infantry unit which drops heavy weapons (keeps up to 3" Mortar for example), equipment and support and a HQ unit with the rest of the equiment. You get your unit capable of Jungle warfare, but hasnt a lot of puch and is not well supported and if you want your Support you ship or fly it to the Infantry component.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 1/18/2013 9:21:51 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 9:49:34 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
Quest for michaelm, You have a full strength Division in (for example) Pt Moresby. Jungle hexes are impassable to this force. But a button enables you to create a light infantry unit which drops heavy weapons (keeps up to 3" Mortar for example), equipment and support and a HQ unit with the rest of the equiment. You get your unit capable of Jungle warfare, but hasnt a lot of puch and is not well supported and if you want your Support you ship or fly it to the Infantry component.


JeffK-that's a pretty cool idea. I'd support that.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 10:46:56 PM   
JeffK


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But can you program it

Maybe for a later edition.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/18/2013 11:45:39 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I can only believe that people are aware of the problems in the Owen Stanley's because of real history. I wonder how many other hexes in the WITP map are "realistically impossible to cross, but possible in the game" hexes that we aren't aware of because there was no WW2 history there. The Owen Stanleys sets off alarms in folks, but I'd bet there are many other hexes that are equally impossible to 'support an army' that don't set off alarms, that would, if we were aware of them.

I thought the big hoo-ha about the route between PM and Buna was not that it was passable, but that it allowed movement at the rate of a major road!
That is clearly beyond what happens with other jungle terrain and should not be left alone in the next update. Thus the need for house rules to either reduce movement to something approximating normal jungle/rough or both sides make use of the major road tunnel.

If the movement issue is fixed, Jeff K's idea for creating light infantry is a great idea - lots of places it can be used. It is already possible to do this after a fashion by airlifting the unit to another location [large equipment stays behind] or sealifting with too few ships to load the support elements and equipment. In the latter case the fighting troops load up first with light assault equipment. Move this partial unit to a new location and unload, and you have your light infantry. Not sure if the HQ element would be with the fighting element though.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 12:57:42 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

But can you program it

Maybe for a later edition.


Umm...no. First one that proposes it programs it. House rule.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 9:51:21 AM   
Alfred

 

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1. There is no tunnel under the Owen Stanleys. I have no idea where this fantasy that there is such a thing first arose. It did not arise in GreyJoy's game v rader.

2. Movement rates across the Owen Stanleys, ie between Port Moresby and Buna, are exactly the same as anywhere else on the map where the same type of terrain is found. Units do not cross as if they were traversing a major road. Again no idea where this fantasy has come from.

3. If the crossing of the Owen Stanleys were in fact at the rate of a major road, that would be a definite bug to be fixed by michaelm. No other action, such as forcing players to move in combat mode, or restrictions on units able to cross, would be appropriate.

4. Andy Mac has already, from the very beginning of AE's life, had a jungle TOE which Commonwealth units change over to. If someone wants to argue that Andy Mac got it wrong, I'm all ears but I very much doubt that they will be able to successfully prosecute that argument.

5. Is the argument that a non historical, special "light jungle" TOE template required? Putting aside the basic premise that Andy Mac got it wrong, all TOE templates are based on the historical unit structures. I don't see the need, nor the wisdom in the overall context of the game, in introducing a "fantasy" TOE template which is optional at the player's discretion. No other TOE is an optional detour from the preset path.

6. The terrain between Port Moresby and Buna did not preclude the historical movement of some artillery tubes throughout its entire length. If the Japanese could do it, why can't the player?

7. I find it amazing that anyone is comfortable with the idea of forcing their opponent, whether it be the Japanese re Port Moresby or the Allies re Buna, to undertake only a sea borne invasion of those locations. The Own Stanleys were historically crossed in both directions by both sides. It is not a one way thoroughfare. The Japanese came very close to Port Moresby and if there had been no simultaneous Guadalcanal campaign which severely impacted on the limited Japanese logistical capabilities, who is to say they would not have captured Port Moresby overland. The Allies definitely captured Buna with an overland campaign. So where is this justification that either location should only be captured from the sea?

Alfred

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 11:43:16 AM   
obvert


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Alfred's points are very good. I have basically played with the same kind of thought process, mainly that the developers thought pretty hard about this and didn't make it any harder to traverse this kind of terrain for a reason. In our current game both Jocke and I have crossed the OS mts. with units that include all kinds of machinery that would be tough to get over the pass in reality. My main point in a previous post was to say that it just works the same way for each side, so it shouldn't be judged as poor etiquette from either side at either point unless you want to make it more slimmed down and say only the kinds of units that did this historically should be allowed to cross. (Regimental sized chunks without mechanized support or big guns from what I know, which is admittedly not enough to say this conclusively).

What could be a great addition across the board in all areas with tough to traverse terrain is to add a damaged device process for units including items over a certain load capacity so that if those units were crossing mountains or rough jungle hexes off-road, tanks and big arty tubes would be disabled or even destroyed. This would fit better with plausibility and force a player to only use the kinds of units in those areas that are best suited to fight in them. Such as mountains guns instead of 155mm arty when in the mountains, regimental sized units instead of mechanized divisions when going off-road in difficult terrain. I'm no historian, but I wonder how many tank brigades drove from India to Burma through the jungle off-road? Likewise there probably were not a lot of Japanese tanks in certain areas of Central China.

Of course the real terrain included roads not on the game map, and the ability to make new roads even, so I guess this was the compromise reached. It's a tough call, but it does seem like some damage or destruction to those difficult to move devices would be a good compromise. That way players could do what they wanted without HRs, but there would be some penalty for doing something like taking an IJA tank division through the Himalayas off of the road system.

< Message edited by obvert -- 1/19/2013 11:45:13 AM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 2:07:04 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

So where is this justification that either location should only be captured from the sea?


I think its that film roll of the blind Aussie tredging through the mud with Laurence Olivier narriation of how this group stopped the IJ from crossing the Owen Stamelys

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 3:05:07 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

1. There is no tunnel under the Owen Stanleys. I have no idea where this fantasy that there is such a thing first arose. It did not arise in GreyJoy's game v rader.

2. Movement rates across the Owen Stanleys, ie between Port Moresby and Buna, are exactly the same as anywhere else on the map where the same type of terrain is found. Units do not cross as if they were traversing a major road. Again no idea where this fantasy has come from.

3. If the crossing of the Owen Stanleys were in fact at the rate of a major road, that would be a definite bug to be fixed by michaelm. No other action, such as forcing players to move in combat mode, or restrictions on units able to cross, would be appropriate.

4. Andy Mac has already, from the very beginning of AE's life, had a jungle TOE which Commonwealth units change over to. If someone wants to argue that Andy Mac got it wrong, I'm all ears but I very much doubt that they will be able to successfully prosecute that argument.

5. Is the argument that a non historical, special "light jungle" TOE template required? Putting aside the basic premise that Andy Mac got it wrong, all TOE templates are based on the historical unit structures. I don't see the need, nor the wisdom in the overall context of the game, in introducing a "fantasy" TOE template which is optional at the player's discretion. No other TOE is an optional detour from the preset path.

6. The terrain between Port Moresby and Buna did not preclude the historical movement of some artillery tubes throughout its entire length. If the Japanese could do it, why can't the player?

7. I find it amazing that anyone is comfortable with the idea of forcing their opponent, whether it be the Japanese re Port Moresby or the Allies re Buna, to undertake only a sea borne invasion of those locations. The Own Stanleys were historically crossed in both directions by both sides. It is not a one way thoroughfare. The Japanese came very close to Port Moresby and if there had been no simultaneous Guadalcanal campaign which severely impacted on the limited Japanese logistical capabilities, who is to say they would not have captured Port Moresby overland. The Allies definitely captured Buna with an overland campaign. So where is this justification that either location should only be captured from the sea?

Alfred

Thanks for clearing that up Alfred! I do recall reading comments that the movement rate was borked there, but that was before the last major release in early 2012, so either it got fixed or someone was exaggerating!
In the book I read on the New Guinea campaign I am fairly sure that Buna was taken in a two-pronged assualt: the Australians coming overland [partly supported by some paradropped supplies] and the US troops making an amphib landing just down the coast from Buna and marching a few miles to the base.
The book also makes it clear that PM had been reinforced by the Allies after the Coral Sea battle and the Japanese forces from Buna would not have been enough to take it. After the Coral Sea battle made a landing directly at PM too risky, the Japanese landed somewhere near Milne Bay and tried to march up the coast. However, newly arrived allied aircraft attacked them and their supply shipping, paralyzing their progress. And as Alfred said, the battle for Guadalcanal ate up a lot of the support they might have gotten for NG. I can't recall if the Japanese withdrew from the Milne Bay area before or after the US landings near Buna.
At any rate, the only issue with the OS mountains passability seems to be with the size of the equipment that the game allows to pass over it. Other than a house rule of sorts, it seems the answer is to accept how it is modeled and let both players use it when they can. The key is always going to be air superiority and greater troop numbers whether delivered overland or by amphib landing [or both] anyway.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 3:42:49 PM   
Chickenboy


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If malaria, scrub typhus, dengue, jungle rot and other tropical diseases were modeled well in the game (and not capped as they are), large units would be made combat ineffective in short order traversing malarial jungles. Unit effectiveness would be less than 20% after prolonged slogs and fighting through some of this terrain with these disease handicaps.

Instead, fatigue and malarial effects are capped out by code. This diminishes (significantly) the realism associated with conducting such a campaign in this fashion. I'm less concerned about whether the Owen Stanleys are modeled differently than other mountain ranges than about the way the jungle all around is modeled insufficiently.

Sure, units could traverse the Owen Stanleys across the Kokoda track both ways. Such movement sapped the hell out of them. Even worse were some of the infantry actions around Gilli Gilli / Milne Bay. The virulent malaria around there was particularly awful, rendering units combat ineffective in comparatively short order.

Model the hell that was jungle fighting, equippping and feeding whole divisions through untrackable malarial fens and tropical diseases and then I'll say that the game's 'got it right'. Until then, some extraordinary self-imposition of rules is needed if one wants to track reality.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 5:28:43 PM   
Canoerebel


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2/11/42
 
One of those days when the fates are against me; the stars aligned against me; "If I had no bad luck I'd have no luck at all."  Well, it wasn't that bad, but read on:

NoPac:  My sexy CL/DD TF raiding into the Home Islands encountered a defenseless merchant TF in the Kuriles....and didn't engage!  In the Aluetians, an I-Boat put a torp into a CL.  Then, following an effective Allied bombardment of Umnak, the same sub put a torp into CA Chicago.  Both cruisers are hurting, especially Chicago.  There is serious risk that the latter won't make it out of the sub-infested waters.  But, truth be told, things continue to go well:  the unloading at Akutan and Cold Bay are complete and all the activity should reinforce John's focus here.  Bottom line, I think he'll conclude it isn't safe for his ships to move into this region without carrier support; I think there's a good chance he'll commit his carriers.  Mine have completed their duty here and are en route to San Franciso and thence Oz.

DEI:  The only other bad vibes came near Port Blair, where an IJN two-DD TF sank two xAKL, one of which had already unloaded.  No big deal, but it left me with intercept envy compared to my failed intercept in the Kuriles.

WitP AE: We are entering my favorite part of the game.  Japan is mighty and almost unstoppable at any point of its choosing; but the Allies are beginning to grow, can do some things, and can enjoy laying the foundation for things to come.  I find the logistics aspect of the game extremely satisfying.  (Why I enjoy that but despise pilot training I can't tell you.)  What an immensely satisfying game!

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 384
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 5:41:22 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

WitP AE: We are entering my favorite part of the game.  Japan is mighty and almost unstoppable at any point of its choosing; but the Allies are beginning to grow, can do some things, and can enjoy laying the foundation for things to come.  I find the logistics aspect of the game extremely satisfying.  (Why I enjoy that but despise pilot training I can't tell you.)  What an immensely satisfying game!


You're about to overrun our game. I just watched the movie for Feb. 14. Agree that the units-arriving portion of the read-out is getting nicer to watch. Today two RN BBs, three Gato-class boats, and a big supply convoy to Cape Town. It somewhat balances the lack of fighters.

As you pull past my game I'll be watching to see what goodies I'll soon have.

On the I-boats; I assume you've done the 1/1 and 2/1 DD upgrades? Not great, but they help. Better DD classes (Fletcher and Porter) are coming soon.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 385
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 6:20:16 PM   
Canoerebel


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2/12/42
 
Blood lust and an International Incident, Oh My!

NoPac:  As busy as it was yesterday, today was even moreso.  The Allied raiding TF in the Kuriles stumbled upon a replenishment TF, sinking a PB and an AO.  Then the TF found an IJN DD TF.  Both sides got bloodied, with the Allies getting the better of things...until Kates from Paramushiro finished off two DDs.  CL Raleigh is also hurting and her patrol plane diverted to Petroplavisk, an international incident, though I've impounded her.  Over in the Aleutians, an IJN sub finished of CA Chicago with two torps.  INJ patrol aircraft of some sort also have high detection levels on several TFs near Kodiak.  This worries me a bit. I don't think John could've gotten the KB this far this fast, but my concern level is growing.  (On the other hand, if John has a small CV force up here it's nothing but prey if I can find it and squash it.)  The USN  CVs will close on the Alaskan panhandle tomorrow - still in theater, but about to depart.  All of this activity and blood-letting should really have John salivating.  I'm betting he is.

DEI:  SigInt that 33rd Div. is aboard a maru bound for Mersing (and obviously Singapore).  This is one of those small but telling indicators that means very much.  Since this isn't Scenario Two with the four extra divisions, John would need nearly all his divisions free to pose a credible threat to India at this point.  Instead, he'll have three at Singers, three in the Java region, and at least one at Clark Field.  Based on this, I'm pretty sure India is safe (though a smaller campaign vs. Ceylon or Calcutta is still one the table).  Therefore, I'm willing to fight forward in India and to shift more attention to defending Oz, which in my estimation is the more vulnerable of the two (because IMO India proper cannot be attacked successfully by the time John is done with Singers, Java and Clark).

India:  An IJN combat TF with float-plane support is near Addu Atoll.  I'm pretty sure no carriers are present.  The Allies have a combat TF at North Male Island and a small CV TF at Socatra.  The latter will weigh anchor and move east.

Bullwinkle:  Most of my carrier ships haven't upgraded because they've been at sea the entire month of February.  The ships in port - mainly Pearl and Seattle - are upgrading.  I'll probably do all possible upgrades when the carriers reach San Francisco. (And I know what you mean about our game passing yours; in my game vs. PzH, the game between Q-Ball and GreyJoy was far, far behind but eventually caught up and passed ours.)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 1/19/2013 6:21:35 PM >

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 386
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 6:31:43 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

If malaria, scrub typhus, dengue, jungle rot and other tropical diseases were modeled well in the game (and not capped as they are), large units would be made combat ineffective in short order traversing malarial jungles. Unit effectiveness would be less than 20% after prolonged slogs and fighting through some of this terrain with these disease handicaps.

Instead, fatigue and malarial effects are capped out by code. This diminishes (significantly) the realism associated with conducting such a campaign in this fashion. I'm less concerned about whether the Owen Stanleys are modeled differently than other mountain ranges than about the way the jungle all around is modeled insufficiently.

Sure, units could traverse the Owen Stanleys across the Kokoda track both ways. Such movement sapped the hell out of them. Even worse were some of the infantry actions around Gilli Gilli / Milne Bay. The virulent malaria around there was particularly awful, rendering units combat ineffective in comparatively short order.

Model the hell that was jungle fighting, equippping and feeding whole divisions through untrackable malarial fens and tropical diseases and then I'll say that the game's 'got it right'. Until then, some extraordinary self-imposition of rules is needed if one wants to track reality.

You sound like a tropical disease fanboy!

Seriously, I agree BUT - road(major/minor) and rail building would have to be modeled to go along with that.

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(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 387
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/19/2013 6:38:49 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

If malaria, scrub typhus, dengue, jungle rot and other tropical diseases were modeled well in the game (and not capped as they are), large units would be made combat ineffective in short order traversing malarial jungles. Unit effectiveness would be less than 20% after prolonged slogs and fighting through some of this terrain with these disease handicaps.

Instead, fatigue and malarial effects are capped out by code. This diminishes (significantly) the realism associated with conducting such a campaign in this fashion. I'm less concerned about whether the Owen Stanleys are modeled differently than other mountain ranges than about the way the jungle all around is modeled insufficiently.

Sure, units could traverse the Owen Stanleys across the Kokoda track both ways. Such movement sapped the hell out of them. Even worse were some of the infantry actions around Gilli Gilli / Milne Bay. The virulent malaria around there was particularly awful, rendering units combat ineffective in comparatively short order.

Model the hell that was jungle fighting, equippping and feeding whole divisions through untrackable malarial fens and tropical diseases and then I'll say that the game's 'got it right'. Until then, some extraordinary self-imposition of rules is needed if one wants to track reality.

You sound like a tropical disease fanboy!

Seriously, I agree BUT - road(major/minor) and rail building would have to be modeled to go along with that.


OK. No complaints here.

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 388
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/20/2013 3:54:17 AM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 5538
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From: Chicago, Illinois
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Dan, can you give an overview of your early troop movements?

IMO, for the Allies the #1 priority is safeguarding India, and #2 is Australia.

For India, I think sending the 2 Australian Divisions there is a given.

For OZ, I load up the Marines in San Diego and a couple base units, with lots of supplies and fuel, and get that to OZ ASAP. And keep moving other odds and ends out there

Where are your available troops going?

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 389
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 1/20/2013 3:54:32 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

6. The terrain between Port Moresby and Buna did not preclude the historical movement of some artillery tubes throughout its entire length. If the Japanese could do it, why can't the player?

7. I find it amazing that anyone is comfortable with the idea of forcing their opponent, whether it be the Japanese re Port Moresby or the Allies re Buna, to undertake only a sea borne invasion of those locations. The Own Stanleys were historically crossed in both directions by both sides. It is not a one way thoroughfare. The Japanese came very close to Port Moresby and if there had been no simultaneous Guadalcanal campaign which severely impacted on the limited Japanese logistical capabilities, who is to say they would not have captured Port Moresby overland. The Allies definitely captured Buna with an overland campaign. So where is this justification that either location should only be captured from the sea?


There is one historical point which is not easy to simulate in the game. The Allies found it easier to move supplies and light equipment over the Owens Stanleys because the natives were more willing to carry things for them. (The word had spread of the treatment of the races the Japanese considered inferior.)

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