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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 7:49:27 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Sometime ago, I had a PM from a forumite inquiring if I was soaking off. Right on top of that PM came Chickenboy's posts in my AAR. Putting the two together - especially from the tone - was easy.

I was not, did not and have never used soaking off missions. I think my reputation is such that my word alone would be enough, but apparently not, which really bothered me. The more I thought about it, the angrier I got.

I will be glad to make my files available so that anybody can check and see what TFs were out there and how I handled things, though I can't imagine anyone would want to go to that much trouble. But if you do, you'll see that I've always had lots of traffic between Sabang and Ceylon (duh!) and that all the TFs that were there were legit - supply and reinforcements inbound, empties and cripples outbound, etc. When John sprung his carriers forward, I did my best to get everything out of harm's way and largely succeeded.

I hope you can understand that one who hasn't done something doesn't like being repeatedly accused of doing it.

But another thing that rankled is that it was John taking maximum advantage of the game mechanics to work a nonhistoric advantage, yet to my knowledge nobody has called him on it. So I get accused of doing something I didn't do, but John doesn't get called on something he did do.

What I'm speaking of is his use of carriers to leap forward 18 hexes into my main sea lane. His carriers were under constant patrol surveillance. I knew right where they were. In real life, I could have immediately recalled my TFs as soon as his carriers started forward, but due to the game mechanics, I had to wait 24 hours.

Nothing wrong with what he did. That's just the way the game works and we all do it and enjoy it. But I think you can see that he indeed used a nonhistoric capability to his fullest advantage. But when he did so, I was the one accused of bad faith.

Man, that chapped me.



What I have found is CR that there is a religious base in this forum. By religious I mean they are ridged and emotional in their belief systems, and not willing to have a dialogue. The emotional part comes in fervent and self-righteous postings. I too have been personally attacked for my perspective. What I have found to be a good countermeasure is to simply block those that are both religious in their views and obnoxious in the presentation. I simply stopped my AAR and with blocking I still enjoy the forum, dialogue with those I find with interesting views, and share my passion for WitP AE,

+1
Whether it be how TFs and convoys are handled, ground bombing of troops, strat bombing, non-base landings, and on and on, certain things get branded as 'cheating' if they are not in accord with how some people want them.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 8:40:56 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

Whether it be how TFs and convoys are handled, ground bombing of troops, strat bombing, non-base landings, and on and on, certain things get branded as 'cheating' if they are not in accord with how some people want them.


There is this fantasy that WitP AE is a simulation and not a game, and worse there is a mistaken belief if one just implements the "golden home rule(s)" the game becomes a simulation. Then doing things that are outside of this belief system is cheating.

As CR quite well put out, the game does not allow for ordering reactions needed to simulate an tactical response, and yet things are moving at an tactical level all within an operational/strategic overall premise. That gap leaves problems, which CR sees xAK's as a role to fill that brings about a whole different set of problems because the game does not allow the programing of targets. Instead one is at the mercy of closest target is optimal algorithm. So then I ask, if I am escorting xAK/xAP's into a port and I set the CV's at some distance away but within say 3 hexes, is that cheating? [Rhetorical question]

Right now I am in a contest where the IJ ignored Singers, and PI and struck India. With an extended map, They parked enough platforms to prevent any reinforcements and the Commonwealth are withdrawing forces as per an historical outcome. But it is just a game, and I am focused on how in 1944 I am going to blitzkrieg the IJ out of their pants .....

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 9:11:22 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
At such times, there is the Appalachian Trail and there has to be some mountain stream with brookies that will take a dry fly.


Quoted For Truth man. If you need the time, you need the time. I for one have always found your posts to be filled with a certain polite sothern charm

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 9:21:18 PM   
ny59giants


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..

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 9/14/2013 3:52:08 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 9:59:59 PM   
Canoerebel


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NYGiants said this in his email: "In RA 6.0 we are changing the P-38F from Replacement to Production. Thus, once the "G" come in on 10/42, the 40 from the "F" factory (added at LA) will upgrade and an Allied player will get 60/month vs the 20 you are getting. This is the same as in Stock and in my own DBB 30 game. Sad, but true. 40 more P-38s per month from 10/42 through end of war will help."

IE, under 6.0, I would indeed get 60 P-38G per month. Thus, as of January 1, I would have 180. I've only received 60 under 5.7. That means I did not have a deep enough understanding of the peramaters of 5.7 when I undertook this operation. Based upon previous play - especially a successfull all-out air-war defense against Q-Ball a few games back, I thought I received enough good fighters to defend the bases in Sumatra. But I failed to look more closely at the underlying numbers.

But, apparently, John and his mod group reached the conclusion some time back that the P-38 numbers weren't sufficient. That's the main point I've been making all along, contrary to all the "no, no, no, you have enough" assertions.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 10:17:22 PM   
Schlemiel

 

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You should still have as many as stock, though, and 60 seems small for that. That's extremely strange. I lost a longer post to a wierd post error, but we're wishing you all the best and all our support for however long and whatever you need it, Dan. Best from all of us.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 10:20:29 PM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

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removed

< Message edited by Cpt Sherwood -- 9/13/2013 11:09:47 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 10:20:54 PM   
Canoerebel


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Does anybody know how many P-38G you get in stock? As I stated earlier, my understanding was that the Allies got enough Lightnings beginning summer of '42 to handle a campaign like this. I did not check RA production numbers at the outset on the assumption that they would be the same, which I think everybody would assume (who goes into a mod and checks all the numbers?).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 10:41:32 PM   
crsutton


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At that phase of the war I am pretty sure you only get about 20 per month in stock. This is from memory but there really was no sufficient P38 production until the L model came on line later in the war. The shortage of "all" army aircraft really never ends until the mustang comes into production. The Navy carried the fight until them.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 10:52:13 PM   
DOCUP


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CR I am in early Sept. 43 of my Scen 1 game stock. I have looked and see no production or replacement rates for the P 38G. I have used 151, 35 in my pools and 50 active with 128 lost.

Edited the date. I forgot to put in the month. Walloc told me that since I have past the P38G date that it won't show up as having any on my screen. Thanks Walloc.

< Message edited by DOCUP -- 9/14/2013 12:26:26 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 10:55:59 PM   
DOCUP


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I also want to add. I have read several of your AARs and have learned much about the game from you. I have also learned a lot about other topics from your posts around the forum. Thanks for the education and assistance you have given me. As to the thoughts of you takeing a break from the game and forum or even leaving that is up to you, but it would be a great loss to the forum and the rest of us to have such a great SOUTHERN GENTLEMAN leave our ranks. But the decision is yours and yours alone.

I sorry to hear about what happened to your father and hope him a speedy recovery. You have a lot on your plate right now. So please take some time and make sure you are right and healthy.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 11:10:50 PM   
Walloc

 

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Nm.

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 9/13/2013 11:15:28 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 11:34:20 PM   
ny59giants


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..


< Message edited by ny59giants -- 9/14/2013 3:52:26 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/13/2013 11:37:30 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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stock scenario 2 P-38 stats





Attachment (1)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/14/2013 1:43:45 AM   
desicat

 

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I had to read Cap Mandrakes post several times, for a minute I thought he was quoting from the manual!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/14/2013 3:15:57 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: desicat

I had to read Cap Mandrakes post several times, for a minute I thought he was quoting from the manual!



I realize that may have caused a whiplash injury. Here is a better view of the P-38's. Pretend I don't know what "replacement rate" is. It seems one will accrue about 20 E models and 80 F's (I believe this does not include the E and F models (46/12) trapped in permanent untransferable squadrons in the CONUS).


In 10-42 the G line turns on at 20 per month.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 9/14/2013 3:16:16 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/14/2013 3:52:34 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: desicat

I had to read Cap Mandrakes post several times, for a minute I thought he was quoting from the manual!



I realize that may have caused a whiplash injury. Here is a better view of the P-38's. Pretend I don't know what "replacement rate" is. It seems one will accrue about 20 E models and 80 F's (I believe this does not include the E and F models (46/12) trapped in permanent untransferable squadrons in the CONUS).


In 10-42 the G line turns on at 20 per month.







Ah it is coming back to me. The "F" line is a short run bonus but you only get it for two months. Then you convert to the "G" model but revert back to a pitiful "20" per month. When the H model comes on line you get 20 more plus your 20 "G" model production line converts to the "H". So you will get a total of forty of the "H" planes a month. Then you move onto the very nice "J" model but only get an additional ten per month while your 40 "G" type convert. So, you will get 50 per month of the "J" type until the final "L" type comes on line. This line adds 30 more to the production line and your 50 "G" types will also then convert to the "L" giving you a final total of 80 "L" types in production for the rest of the war.

Note, If you want you can manually order your factories to not upgrade to the L model from the G model. Thus giving you 50 G models and 30 L models in production at the same time for the rest of the game. If I recall the G type is slightly faster than the L. However, the difference is not noticeable in game terms.

You also get a few squadrons that arrive equipped with lightnings and these can be added to your totals. If I recall, one arrives in China and if the Japanese player is doing well you won't get it because it comes in at a specific base.

< Message edited by crsutton -- 9/14/2013 3:57:29 PM >


_____________________________

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/14/2013 4:49:07 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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Interesting, so in the temporal window CR is in, he will get the astounding number of 20 P-38's per month until June '43.

He can lose 2 airframes every 3 days for the entire Pacific and CBI. That is quite luxurious.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/14/2013 6:17:25 PM   
princep01

 

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What I have found is CR that there is a religious base in this forum. By religious I mean they are ridged and emotional in their belief systems, and not willing to have a dialogue.

I wonder if there is any "dicussion group" in life wherein this is not true.  While I freely admit my own glaring guilt, one must remember to be respectful of the opinions and views of others when posting herein.  This has been a wonderful AAR to visit occasionally.  I would not like it to disappear or be seriously hampered by even inadvertant insult.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/14/2013 8:09:53 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Interesting, so in the temporal window CR is in, he will get the astounding number of 20 P-38's per month until June '43.

He can lose 2 airframes every 3 days for the entire Pacific and CBI. That is quite luxurious.




Another patient saved. Well u havé 4 squadrons that arrive with a combined number of 23 P-38Gs.
If u add 65 P-40Ks a month and 25 P-39 D. U get a combined month USAAF F pool of 110 F per month or 4'ish per day.
Adding the 45 F4F u get up too 5 per day. I do that as CR seeems being able to get the USN into the fight but not the brits.
Even 2 months saved pool of 220+ up will vanish fast if one are losing 30+ a day.
This isnt a knock on CR. Just stating the facts as they are, whether one agree's or not in it should be like that.

After 1/1/43 it gets a little better as u ger the Cosair u then get up into 6 a day.

Before 9/42 is even "worse" as u dont get many early P-38 as u state Cap and u dont get 65 P-40K but 35 P-40Es+ 25 P-39 for 60 a month or 2 per day for USAAF only plus the 72 P-40O overall early on. One even in scn one as japanease will out produce that along with USN F and the brits F easily. PDU On/Off, determaning on how usefull the production will be.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 9/14/2013 8:20:52 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/14/2013 8:26:01 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I did the math a few minutes ago - In the game to date (1/1/43), I have received a total of 66 P-38G. That consists of 33 lost in battle (25 a-2-a and 8 ops), 25 on map (8 FG/36 FS has all 25), plus 8 in the pools.



60 P-38G for Oct/Nov/Dec 42 is exactly the rate for stock.

The arrival of the Marine Corsairs in Jan 43 is a huge help. That brings the high-end fighter replacement rate to 50/month. It is doable but you need to have the P-39/P-40's underneath the Corsairs and P-38's so the older airframes take most of the losses.

Go find a riffle or pool and throw some caddis flies and then come back when you are ready.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2013 2:43:19 AM   
Canoerebel


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Here's the core of a message sent to John:

My Dad died early this morning - peacefully and content. The family is thankful for his long life and that we had so much time with him, so mostly this is a time of reflection rather than sadness.

I'll be tied up a good bit of the next two weeks. He died in North Carolina and the funeral and other family things will take place in Miami. I'll be making another trip to North Carolina and then a longer trip to Miami.

As things begin to wind down, I'll be in a position to give our game thought with better clarity. At the moment, though, I'm definitely leaning towards resigning, though I'm not sure that leaning comes from a position of mental clarity. But you might be wanting to give some thought to what you do next if I do resign. You have your last turn file and my password, so you should be good to advertise for another opponent.

Hope you guys are safe and sound in rainy Colorada. I heard the Weather Service referred to the rainfall as "biblical." Wow! Best wishes to you and Paula and your boys.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2013 2:53:38 AM   
Canoerebel


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The Allies are in excellent position in this game going forward, but I just don't have the heart to engage in a three-year slogfest of the sort experienced by Q-Ball in his game versus GreyJoy. There's plenty of excitement in that kind of game, but for purely personal reasons, I am burned out. I mentioned this weeks ago - that I hoped the Allies would win the Sumatra air battle so that the game could end neatly right there.

I disagree also with the Japanese player position that the Allies should remain as hamstrung as possible in '42 while the Japanese are using human growth hormones without restriction. While I want Japan to remain as strong as possible (hence my preference for Scenario 2 and RA to give the greatest challenge possible to the Allies), I think the Allies need some help in the air pools in '42 to keep Japan more honest and to permit the Allies to take advantage of outright Japanese negligence. But Japanese players here seem to be saying that the game must - has to! - force the Allies to remain calm and quiet in '42 and dare not take bold action.

The game loses much of the charm if the Allies are hobbled in '42. Of course the Allies can and nearly always will win moving forward, but at that point it's nearly always a slogfest. (That's my own personal term for games that devolve into methodical advances with both sides getting punished - the real fun of the game is in '42, when anything can happen...unless you're a Japanese player who doesn't want to open possiblities for the Allied player.

Caveat: Certain excellent players will still have the ability to take a position like that achieved in this game and drive it home to victory, so I'm not saying this would inevitably be a slogfest for every player.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2013 3:21:33 AM   
zuluhour


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Dan, my thoughts go out to you. Peace be yours now. Take a break, think, reflect, and mourn. Resign later.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2013 4:02:04 AM   
witpqs


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My condolences Dan. May your dad rest in peace.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2013 12:41:57 PM   
catwhoorg


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Dan, sorry about your father.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2013 3:33:50 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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My sympathies on your loss, sir.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2013 12:39:43 AM   
vettim89


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Dan,

My deepest sympathy for you and your family

Tim

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2013 4:01:22 AM   
zuluhour


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My thoughts to you sir.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2013 3:04:14 PM   
Galahad78

 

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My deepest sympathy Dan

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