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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 2:37:51 AM   
princep01

 

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Pollack....hummm...and here I am thinking it was just a fish that a US submarine was named after.

CR, I don't know this senario you are playing at all, but as someone said above....make sure you did not inadventantly turn off production of some fighters.  I know you have been heavily engaged in the air for quite sometime and I have been less engaged in my game (stock), but in October 1942, I have more than 170 P-39Ds and a respectible number of all other fighters in my pools.  Given your current situation, you might think of standing down a turn over your main base then popping back up when the bombers make their play.  A rest turn will reinvigorate a large number of damaged fighters.  It is a gamble, but if the weather is also bad, his bombers might not do a lot of damage even if he commits them while you are down.

Also, I suspect you are layering your CAP to cover a fair number of altitudes and flying AC at optimal heights.  If not, welll....  Finally, he is losing a lot more pilots than you as he is fairly far afield.  Nonetheless, he may be coming from a number of AFs.  Therefore, it would be logical that he is recovering damage faster.  He is losing a lot of planes/pilots in these excursions and presumably a lot of crack pilots.

Who will crack first? Carry on.

(in reply to ny59giants)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 3:37:29 AM   
Wuffer

 

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Confederate HQ, Pontimac, June 21th, 186x,

„With all respect, Mr General, it’s not the right time for a joke!“
„Pff, you think I’m kidding? True, we got their Capitol, but look at our arty...!“
„Mr General, our troops awaiting your orders - just now!“
„C’m guys, be serious. The yanks will counterattack tomorrow with all their guns and all I have is this lousy handvoll of bronze muzzleloaders...
this sucks, G’men, our industrial basis just can’t compare with the mighty factories of the North. It’s not only unfair, it sucks. It’s a lost cause, why didn’t you understand?
I’m sick of all these fighting... Last week, I dreamt about a big hemp plantage. I think I should better concentrate on my little farm; this Indian plants have much underestimated qualities...“
„You can not leave us now! You are are a national hero, Mr Lee, look at our schoolboys: Your poster is hanging about their beds!“
„tzzzz, a lost cause.... ‚King Cotton’ was a erroneous idea, based on dumb wishthinking. Good bye, G’men.“


:-)))


< Message edited by Wuffer -- 9/12/2013 3:41:02 AM >

(in reply to princep01)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 3:46:32 AM   
Wuffer

 

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CR,
look at this: All his new shiny ships will burn a lot of oil...

If he hasn't allready crushed his economy, he will do so very soon.
Don't sink his Navy toys, just let him travel all over the map...



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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 6:04:17 AM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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You need to get the RAF Hurris and the P-39's into the fight. The P-39's can be brought in by back-converting P-40K damaged squadrons to P-39's, thus freeing up P-40K's for the other squadrons.

The Hurris will have to flown in off CVE decks.

(in reply to kjnoel)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 6:07:15 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I know I sound like a broken record (young guys: look it up), but there is something holding Japan back if only it were observed: VPs. Play the design; it's in there. If CR has destroyed a vast number more aircraft as he says he's "winning" to an extent already if the design is respected.

Looks like this AAR is about to go dark, but perhaps this point can be a final take-away.


Yes, VPs are of course something to take into consideration. But from the AARs I follow and my own game a 1:1 ratio is quite common at this period? So the Japanese player isn´t losing points. He is breaking even. Of course this is a generalisation but you have to look at the loss ratio and not production when it comes to VPs. Right? While this might have a small effect on Japanese auto victory I don´t think any Jap player would consider a 1:1 VP ratio in exchange for completely removing the allied air force to mid 43 as a bad exchange?

The problem lies in human nature. One side is given the ability to completely alter the production system and tailor it to perfection. Optimising it to something far beyond what possible in the real war. Of course any self respecting Japanese player would do this. Why limit yourself to historical boundaries when you can do far better? And over the years Japanese players has become REALLY good at this so they can squeeze every little drop out of it.

This while the other side is shackled by historical restraints and the actual happenings in the war. Of course things are going to go bonkers? I think CR has a very valid point when it comes to the fun factor. There is a reason for many players pulling a "sir robin" in one way or another. Its just counter productive to stand and fight at most locations. Allied pools can´t sustain it and you can lose 2-3 months of replacements in a single Tojo sweep. Then the Japanese players complain that the allied player pulled a "sir robin". Doesn´t sound like much fun for either side?

Same thing holds true for on map pilot training. Basically that gave BOTH sides unlimited pilots far better trained than was ever possible. Was the engine built around pilots having a MINIMUM of 70 as their major skill? And true to human nature both sides squeeze every little drop out of the system. The game is built around historical events and limitations yet both sides contribute to driving things to its very edge by squeezing every drop out what we can customize. And then we all sit down and complain when the engine falls apart around us?

My bet is that if you scale everything back to more "normal" levels both sides will have a more enjoyable experience. Find that spot where the devs said "this is our baseline" and stay there. Personally as I said before I think PDU ON is disruptive for the game as a whole. I think the game is meant to be played with it OFF and I think thats how it should be played (I think this was even confirmed by one of the devs?). But for some reason PDU ON has become the norm. So we sit down and moan about the game getting weird when we are in reality playing it in a way the devs never intended for us to do.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 9:35:41 AM   
paullus99


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Joc brings up a very good point - that by creating a situation where the JFB is basically invincible for the first two and a half years of the game, can line up literally thousands of fighters and bombers (with no regard to losses), backed up by every ship that could be put on the line, and crush any attempt by the Allied Player to "make game" by doing what CR did....given that those two and a half years represent how many hundreds of turns? Which, of course, forces the Allied player to just sit there and take it (much like the Japanese player's job is to sit and take it for the last year and a half of the war).....I can see where the frustration comes in.

Is the point of these scenarios to try to make a fun game for both players or just provide one side with the ability to control the game to the point where they either become disinterested because they aren't winning anymore and quit or the Allied player just quits because no matter what they do, they'll be crushed until they have such numerical superiority that the issue would never be in doubt anyway?

There are a number of historical / non-historical trade-offs in this game to begin with, but when does it get to the point where one side is literally consigned to the sidelines for months of real-life time...(and yes, I too hate using the word literally).

Again, just my $0.02 looking at both this game & how a number of others using these types of mods have gone in the past.....

_____________________________

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 10:50:17 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

Joc brings up a very good point - that by creating a situation where the JFB is basically invincible for the first two and a half years of the game, can line up literally thousands of fighters and bombers (with no regard to losses), backed up by every ship that could be put on the line, and crush any attempt by the Allied Player to "make game" by doing what CR did....given that those two and a half years represent how many hundreds of turns? Which, of course, forces the Allied player to just sit there and take it (much like the Japanese player's job is to sit and take it for the last year and a half of the war).....I can see where the frustration comes in.

Is the point of these scenarios to try to make a fun game for both players or just provide one side with the ability to control the game to the point where they either become disinterested because they aren't winning anymore and quit or the Allied player just quits because no matter what they do, they'll be crushed until they have such numerical superiority that the issue would never be in doubt anyway?

There are a number of historical / non-historical trade-offs in this game to begin with, but when does it get to the point where one side is literally consigned to the sidelines for months of real-life time...(and yes, I too hate using the word literally).

Again, just my $0.02 looking at both this game & how a number of others using these types of mods have gone in the past.....


I agree with many of the comments above about limiting in some way the extreme outcomes available for both sides that are magnified early toward the Japanese side due to the difference in airframe production potential.

Where I would question your comment here is the timeframe you're using. The "first two and a half years of the game" would be up to May 44. I'm not sure there are many if any games where a Japanese player is dominant in 44. If so it's probably due to game situations such as losing CVs or having a big setback as Allies. Maybe due to trying some thing too big too early.

In my game with Jocke he was unfortunate (mostly due to weather we think) in losing a CV battle that set him behind schedule. Due to a careful use of his air forces and maintaining his pools throughout he was able to advance and have a good air loss ratio throughout 42-43 and be easily dominant in all of 44 in the air in spite of never having numerical superiority.

Granted I am still a medium level player but he has figured out a system that optimizes the use of the Allied air force and is able to combat these numbers. I think a lot of what happens is due to player choices, not so much the number of planes available. Allied quality will win out if used well. Our 2nd best maneuver band HR also helped him in these later stages, but I doubt even without it that anything could have changed P-47s getting 5:1 or better odds in sweeps. I'm certainly not out-producing by a 5:1 ratio, and it's not even 2:1, so those sweeps and 4E strikes do take their toll.

I have no idea his pools, but I know his pilots must be very strong and they help maximize his available airframes. (He probably also has masses of poor quality airframes around to use in a pinch as I rarely see these in combat. FM-1 & 2 and P-40 models mostly).


< Message edited by obvert -- 9/12/2013 10:52:06 AM >


_____________________________


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 2:13:35 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

I'm not sure there are many if any games where a Japanese player is dominant in 44.


How many RA 5.X games have made it to 1944? How many RA games with the same home rules as this game have made it to 1944?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 2:16:06 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I know I sound like a broken record (young guys: look it up), but there is something holding Japan back if only it were observed: VPs. Play the design; it's in there. If CR has destroyed a vast number more aircraft as he says he's "winning" to an extent already if the design is respected.

Looks like this AAR is about to go dark, but perhaps this point can be a final take-away.


Yes, VPs are of course something to take into consideration. But from the AARs I follow and my own game a 1:1 ratio is quite common at this period? So the Japanese player isn´t losing points. He is breaking even. Of course this is a generalisation but you have to look at the loss ratio and not production when it comes to VPs. Right? While this might have a small effect on Japanese auto victory I don´t think any Jap player would consider a 1:1 VP ratio in exchange for completely removing the allied air force to mid 43 as a bad exchange?

The problem lies in human nature. One side is given the ability to completely alter the production system and tailor it to perfection. Optimising it to something far beyond what possible in the real war. Of course any self respecting Japanese player would do this. Why limit yourself to historical boundaries when you can do far better? And over the years Japanese players has become REALLY good at this so they can squeeze every little drop out of it.

This while the other side is shackled by historical restraints and the actual happenings in the war. Of course things are going to go bonkers? I think CR has a very valid point when it comes to the fun factor. There is a reason for many players pulling a "sir robin" in one way or another. Its just counter productive to stand and fight at most locations. Allied pools can´t sustain it and you can lose 2-3 months of replacements in a single Tojo sweep. Then the Japanese players complain that the allied player pulled a "sir robin". Doesn´t sound like much fun for either side?

Same thing holds true for on map pilot training. Basically that gave BOTH sides unlimited pilots far better trained than was ever possible. Was the engine built around pilots having a MINIMUM of 70 as their major skill? And true to human nature both sides squeeze every little drop out of the system. The game is built around historical events and limitations yet both sides contribute to driving things to its very edge by squeezing every drop out what we can customize. And then we all sit down and complain when the engine falls apart around us?

My bet is that if you scale everything back to more "normal" levels both sides will have a more enjoyable experience. Find that spot where the devs said "this is our baseline" and stay there. Personally as I said before I think PDU ON is disruptive for the game as a whole. I think the game is meant to be played with it OFF and I think thats how it should be played (I think this was even confirmed by one of the devs?). But for some reason PDU ON has become the norm. So we sit down and moan about the game getting weird when we are in reality playing it in a way the devs never intended for us to do.




In my game in late July 1942 I've destroyed about 660 more planes than Japan has. They have equal VP ratings for each side: 2 for heavy bombers (I actually don't know if Japanese 2Es are considered "heavy") 1 for fighters. CR has said many times he's way, way ahead of John in pure numbers of destroyed planes. That may not get all the way back to equity, but it's not nothing. IF the players respect and play for VPs. An "it's just a journey" Japan player won't care how many planes/VPs he throws away and it can become the "Hulk smash!" hour.

Second, at this point in the game's lifespan it's not realistic for any Allied player to bewail his pools. We all know how they are and how they work. Same with what we face.

Third, the game and the victory conditions are balanced on the models. You can't just throw in, say, 30% more Allied air metal and expect not to break the thing.

Fourth, I think there is too much reliance on the air side of the game. My fighter pools are as flat as CR's. I have not spared them, I have not Sir Robined. But look in my AAR at the situation in Burma. Japan has total air superiority. I take losses on the ground, but the battle is not lost. If the Allied player uses terrain, local forts, built forts, AA LCUs, internal LCU AA devices, and pays attention to LCU leadership and mode (Reserve is woefully underused I think) he can stand--for awhile--on a location and take the rain of death from the skies. Air is one leg of three in the game, but GG put the most detail there so a lot of players focus on it. It's better to have air superiority of course, but if you don't you have more options than run or die. IMO of course.

I think you have excellent points on training. It's too fast IMO, and moreover it's too uniform. Not every pilot can be Chuck Yeager no matter how much he practices. Some guys are just average or below (50% in fact.) But your best point is the one on PDU. Well, PDU and Scen 1. THOSE ARE THE HISTORIC NORMS. But nobody plays them. They aren't "fun." That's not the devs' fault. They put them in, they put in the option to go around them. With the editor the option to REALLY go around them.

Count the number of Opponents Wanted ads with Scen 1, PDU Off. It won't take you long.

_____________________________

The Moose

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 2:33:19 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Posted this in John's AAR. Here is what the latest version of RA (6.0x) shows for early war American fighters. Can you compare them Dan and/or let me know what version this PBEM is so I can load it??

quote:

Pulling up RA 6.0x that isn't the final version, but should be correct for American fighters for early war ('42 to early '43). I would need to know what version this PBEM is to load it.

P-38E...5/42 - 5/42...24/mo (Replacements)
P-38F...8/42 - 9/42...40/mo (Production)
P-38G...10/42 - 5/43..20/mo (Prod) means 60/mo
P-38H...6/43 - 11/43..20/mo (Prod) means 80/mo
P-38J...12/43 - 5/44..20/mo (Prod) means 100/mo
P-38L...6/44 - end....30/mo (Prod) means 130/mo

This is an increase from stock.

P-40E...12/41 - 10/42...45/mo
P-40K...9/42 - 7/43 ....65/mo

F4F-4 Wildcat...3/42 - 4/43...45/mo

Either there is a mix up in the mod that has no P-38s being produced or by accident the production was turned off.



Sorry but this simply isnt correct as i understand it.
Pic inclosed of the P-38F showing its listed as replacement therefor has no factories and cant upgrade aka the line stops at 9/42.
U can in RA make it into prodcution and alter that. Its ur mod u can set it how u like and im not argueing that or if its right or wrong, but u say its prodcution is the same as in the standart scn. Its not if u alter it to production as it alters the overall number of planes that arrive from teh standart scn. u can do that and its fine but its NOT the same as the standart scenario, nor do u list it as increase from stock.

Kind regards,

Rasmus






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Walloc -- 9/12/2013 2:59:32 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 2:35:35 PM   
Wargmr


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Canoerebel,

I have enjoyed reading this AAR so thanks for taking the time on it.

One of the things that struck me were some of Nemo's comments regarding not asking the proper question. I think it might apply for this scenario.

Assuming you can never fight toe to toe with your opponents air power, what are the right question to ask?

What are your opponents weaknesses? Can you position your attacks in such a way that his air power is diminished?

It seems like this is a great opportunity to take your game play to a higher level.

Just my .02




_____________________________

We will fight until hell freezes over. Then we will fight on the ice...


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 3:30:51 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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USAAF fighter replacement pools sorted by size of pool, May 43, Scenario 2.




Attachment (1)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 3:38:30 PM   
Walloc

 

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CB has a slightly used Mazda he is selling for cheap Cap. Turn the enemy on him self sorta thing, it is a flying Circus after all

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 3:44:47 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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Another fun trick on sweeps battles is to intermittently "go dark" and put up no CAP. The bad guys suffer ops losses and fatigue while your chaps have espresso and beignets. Or you put up a deliberately weak, sacrificial CAP after a big battle to feign weakness. It is just the kind of thing that would goad the Reluctant Admiral into attacking with the Bettys. Then, the next day, no more beignets. Everybody flies.

Of course, don't do the "go dark" day on the day of his first big air attack.

(in reply to princep01)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 3:49:12 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

CB has a slightly used Mazda he is selling for cheap Cap. Turn the enemy on him self sorta thing, it is a flying Circus after all


In my experience, a Mazda is "slightly used" until the head gasket blows, which is about 150 miles after the warranty expires. I would recommend the P-39 or even a snazzy new P-43.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 3:52:46 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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Also, how far back do I have to go to understand why CR "needs a break"? Was is it the business with the Poles? The air battle?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 3:55:24 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Walloc

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

P-38E...5/42 - 5/42...24/mo (Replacements)
P-38F...8/42 - 9/42...40/mo (Production)
P-38G...10/42 - 5/43..20/mo (Prod) means 60/mo
P-38H...6/43 - 11/43..20/mo (Prod) means 80/mo
P-38J...12/43 - 5/44..20/mo (Prod) means 100/mo
P-38L...6/44 - end....30/mo (Prod) means 130/mo



Sorry but this simply isnt correct as i understand it.
Pic inclosed of the P-38F showing its listed as replacement therefor has no factories and cant upgrade aka the line stops at 9/42.
U can in RA make it into prodcution and alter that. Its ur mod u can set it how u like and im not argueing that or if its right or wrong, but u say its prodcution is the same as in the standart scn. Its not if u alter it to production as it alters the overall number of planes that arrive from teh standart scn. u can do that and its fine but its NOT the same as the standart scenario, nor do u list it as increase from stock.

Kind regards,

Rasmus






With the P-38F what you say might be correct. But for many models they do have factories because factories making prior models will upgrade to that model. In the aircraft pools display the factories will not show under the new model until they actually upgrade to that model.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 4:13:58 PM   
Walloc

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

With the P-38F what you say might be correct. But for many models they do have factories because factories making prior models will upgrade to that model. In the aircraft pools display the factories will not show under the new model until they actually upgrade to that model.


Absolutly and if u look at the thread obvert refered to i say exactly that there. I was refering to this specific case. As u in effect of NY59Giant changes goes from a 20 to a 60 per month prodcution which is trippling it and then saying its the same as the standart scn. Also if changed to production from replacement this will carry on so u get 40 more through out the life of the P-38 because of the reasons u state. Which isnt a trippling later on but non the less 40 more than in the standart scn and saying u havent made any changes. Its that and only that, i protest. Saying its the same. Not whether u should do it or not or if its the same or not in other cases.

Kind regards,

Rasmus


< Message edited by Walloc -- 9/12/2013 4:19:06 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 4:23:20 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

USAAF fighter replacement pools sorted by size of pool, May 43, Scenario 2.





Of course, Cap'n, you guys are considering a landing on ******-jima [redacted for OPSEC] in early 1943. The pace of your game means a rapid depletion of your airframe pools, on par with CR's very early offensive(s).

_____________________________


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 4:51:39 PM   
Lecivius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

Also, how far back do I have to go to understand why CR "needs a break"? Was is it the business with the Poles? The air battle?


Both, probably. He did ask that such talk cease, and it didn't. Plus he is having family issues, and who knows what-not in his life. For all we know a bird pooped in his morning coffee & it drove him 'round the bend.

The man needed a break. At least he was polite is saying "Piss Off"

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 5:22:37 PM   
JohnDillworth


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With realistic pools the Allies can't mount 2 major offensives in 1942 (Ramtree Island counts as an offensive). A game with realistic Japanese pools would be short and predictable. As the balance has shifted to the Japanese, perhaps too heavily. Dan has played a lot of WITP and perhaps has grown war weary. I suspect if you had a mod that doubled Allied air production an Allied fan boy might be more anxious to sign on. Lets face it, how many AAR's have we read with the Japanese just being able to reload time after time? It gets kind of dull

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 9/12/2013 6:32:30 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 6:19:34 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

With realistic pools the Allies can't mount 2 major offensives in 1942 (Ramtree Island counts as an offensive). A game with realistic Japanese pools would be short and predictable. Os the balance has shifted to the Japanese, perhaps too heavily. Dan has played a lot of WITP and perhaps has grown war weary. I suspect if you had a mod that doubled Allied air production an Allied fan bot might be more anxious to sign on. Lets face it, how many AAR's have we read with the Japanese just being able to reload time after time? It gets kind of dull


I completely agree the Japanese CAN make more planes than in the war, even in the Scen 1 games I have been playing. If I made a lot more though I'd feel it economically (even more than I do now, and it is straining the Empire as supply and oil/fuel wain. I hear this from most games that go late). Right now I can still continue because the early war was relatively successful and in the late war I turned off a lot of stuff the Japanese made (ships especially).

Still, as shown in the 'average' Japanese production thread I made, what is being made through 44 in most Scen 1 games is not much more than in the war. In late 44 and 45 it all depends on the amount of HI stored and the amount of bombing of industry. Players CAN make more, but give up something else if they do.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3359966

There is a difference between the real capabilities of the Allies in game and those in the war as well though. There were few if any daily raids of 300+ 4E bombers in the CBI or the Pacific. I see at least that many in BOTH and have for a very long time, every day. (In fact throughout 43 in the CBI there were few raids larger than 30 4E, mostly because of a shortage of air crews and logistical support, and later enough escort).

Losses are also more extreme for both sides, often due to this pace. The thread in the main forum by Don Bowen linking to kills for the Allies in all theatres shows nowhere near the number of kills Jocke already has in late 44. The totals on the chart are 14,174.67 for both theatres. My losses (of course including ops and ground losses) on Oct 31 1944 were 29,207!!!

http://www.warbirdsandairshows.com/aircraftvictorieswwii.htm

With a bunch of pilots of equal skill and exp to the best of the war there will be more kills by both sides. Training this highly by both sides is affecting the Allied pools as much as having streamlined production and higher than historical numbers. If pilot training quality was lower for both sides the Allied advantage would likely grow more in this area throughout the war due to more saved pilots, better aircraft quality and the added advantage of having defensive fire shoot down fighters (which simply doesn't happen for the Japanese side at all).

These games with endless Japanese planes are predominantly either Scen 2 or a similar enhanced mod that allows for more air groups and production, like RA. If you play that as Allies you know what to expect.

< Message edited by obvert -- 9/12/2013 6:21:33 PM >


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Post #: 3562
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 7:32:46 PM   
Cribtop


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Sorry you need a break Dan. Love your AARs and general participation in the boards.

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Post #: 3563
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 7:58:40 PM   
Miller


Posts: 1616
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
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In scn 2 the IJN player can produce a limitless number of planes and trained pilots. That's bad enough for an Allied player to contend this, but this "RA" mod also throws into the mix 3 extra Shokaku class CVs and more BBs/CAs from what I can see. Meanwhile the Allies get a few merchants that can be converted into CVEs.....well whoop-de-do!

I would only play as the Allies in this mod if the IJN player was new to the game, which John clearly isn't. This mod is a fantasy wet dream for an IJN player, simple as that.

(in reply to Cribtop)
Post #: 3564
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 10:01:15 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1842
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From: the Netherlands
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think I need a break from the forum; I think I need a break from the game.


Dan, you can't quit. What will happen with the world if all these people are released from this AAR and forum?

You need to keep them occupied...

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3565
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 10:20:24 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 3458
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think I need a break from the forum; I think I need a break from the game.


Dan, you can't quit. What will happen with the world if all these people are released from this AAR and forum?

You need to keep them occupied...


This is without a doubt the best post to this thread in some time!

+100

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Post #: 3566
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 10:28:12 PM   
AcePylut


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You’ve pursued an extremely aggressive early war approach for the Allies. Are you surprised your pools are empty? Perhaps you’ve just exposed the problem with the early war aggression of the Allies: come ’43, you find your pools of crap planes empty. This could be an AAR to ‘prove’ that the best early war Allied strategy is to be moderately aggressive. Too sir robin, and you are just giving Japan free points. Too aggressive, and you find yourself fighting an attrition war before the Allies are ready.

The biggest problem I see in Sumatra, is that while the Sumatra invasion is “cool to do in forty-two” – there isn’t really a defense in depth at this location. Everything is at Sabang. No rearward airbases to R&R beatup airgroups, or play cat-n-mouse with sweeps and cap. No “not quite front line” bases to house 4Es to engage in IJ airfield suppression. Results of the last few days combat over Sabang show that Japan doesn’t need 1000 fighters, only a couple hundred. Where are the rest of his air groups? Are you sure that he hasn’t put “most” of his eggs in the Sumatra Cauldron? After all, there’s been very intense action in this area between Burma and Sumatra – not much of a problem to shift forces back and forth.

With the losses you state – don’t forget to factor in FOW and pilot-exaggeration. Whenever I see results from ’42, I always cut the IJ losses I see in half, and that’s usually more accurate (this isn’t empirical. This is from running a game against the AI, and occasionally flipping to the other side to see if the losses claimed match actual losses. It never does, and enemy losses are always over-stated.

If you haven’t been in combat for 2 months and your pools are empty – where and how are you hemorrhaging aircraft? Do you have some backwater groups with “replacements on”? Are you losing them via training? Ops losses flying CAP in front line bases?

All those restricted P38’s that you can’t get because you don’t have the frames. Buckup my friend, here’s what I do. I take an unrestricted group of planes in a well-supplied base (say, a group of P39’s or P40’s) and disband or withdraw them. Those planes will go into your pool. Wait a couple days, then you can switch out the P38’s in the restricted airgroup with those P-crappys from the recently withdrawn airgroup. Wait a few more days, and those P-38s will show up in your pools.

You know – I think, strategically, this move toward Sumatra was great. You stopped any and all expansion. But now you find yourself mucking through an attrition war about 6 months before the Allies are really ready to do it. You need to grind it out as best as possible. Make Sumatra into Fortress Sumatra. Work on restoring your pools. In a few months time, you should have enough men and mat’ls to open another front. Hopefully you can hold out in Sumatra until then.

Remember when you first hit Sabang – and everyone (probably myself included) was crowing how “John will throw in the towel, this is a dagger into Japans heart, war will be over in ‘43”. Well maybe not  Don’t quit now… this war just got interesting  You need a second front, and you don’t have one that you can create by Sea (as you’ve stated).. which leaves Burma. Start pushing hard in Burma – open a path to China, then bring in the 4E’s and start plastering everything in sight. Like Japan’s industry.

So a few things to consider – there’s currently no second front for the Allies. Your best weapon in ’42 – the 4E’s – are too far away to support your invasion of Sumatra. And play jiggly-wiggly with the airgroups to free up those restricted P38’s!


And this is, as always, my opinion... one generated by hindsight which is always crystal-clear.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 3567
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 10:53:04 PM   
ny59giants


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??

< Message edited by ny59giants -- 9/14/2013 3:50:34 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 11:03:19 PM   
obvert


Posts: 6816
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

In scn 2 the IJN player can produce a limitless number of planes and trained pilots. That's bad enough for an Allied player to contend this, but this "RA" mod also throws into the mix 3 extra Shokaku class CVs and more BBs/CAs from what I can see. Meanwhile the Allies get a few merchants that can be converted into CVEs.....well whoop-de-do!

I would only play as the Allies in this mod if the IJN player was new to the game, which John clearly isn't. This mod is a fantasy wet dream for an IJN player, simple as that.


I've done some work on RA, but not like the amount John and FatR have done over the years. It was based on Scenario 1 with the positives from DaBabes added in by JWE/Symon. There is a trade off in Japanese CVs. They get fewer than in stock, but the better Shokaku Class and earlier. Some Naval Guards and SNLF are now in brigades with some better defensive capabilities thrown in. The IJN gets some ships better and has some foreknowledge thrown in. The IJA is not much different than stock except the air is slightly better. The army is unchanged.

In RA 6.0 Japan is tamed down some more while I've advocated for a few more positives for the Allies vs this version which is 5.7.

I agree with others that the Allies can be aggressive, but not too super aggressive this early in the war.


How about air groups? Are there extra air groups for Japan? That is what creates the difference in capabilities.



_____________________________


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Post #: 3569
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/12/2013 11:12:50 PM   
Miller


Posts: 1616
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Ashington, England.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

In scn 2 the IJN player can produce a limitless number of planes and trained pilots. That's bad enough for an Allied player to contend this, but this "RA" mod also throws into the mix 3 extra Shokaku class CVs and more BBs/CAs from what I can see. Meanwhile the Allies get a few merchants that can be converted into CVEs.....well whoop-de-do!

I would only play as the Allies in this mod if the IJN player was new to the game, which John clearly isn't. This mod is a fantasy wet dream for an IJN player, simple as that.


I've done some work on RA, but not like the amount John and FatR have done over the years. It was based on Scenario 1 with the positives from DaBabes added in by JWE/Symon. There is a trade off in Japanese CVs. They get fewer than in stock, but the better Shokaku Class and earlier. Some Naval Guards and SNLF are now in brigades with some better defensive capabilities thrown in. The IJN gets some ships better and has some foreknowledge thrown in. The IJA is not much different than stock except the air is slightly better. The army is unchanged.

In RA 6.0 Japan is tamed down some more while I've advocated for a few more positives for the Allies vs this version which is 5.7.

I agree with others that the Allies can be aggressive, but not too super aggressive this early in the war.


How about air groups? Are there extra air groups for Japan? That is what creates the difference in capabilities.




Well he has the original 6KB CVs, Junyo/Hiyo and the 6 Unyru's to come, so how can he have less than stock?

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Post #: 3570
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