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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/7/2013 7:15:42 PM   
MateDow


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think the 4EB have a tenuous ability to shut down Port Blair. They bomb every day. The score meager hits. John's pulled out most of his aircraft. But, just when I think the field is toast, here come his fighters again. So PB is an irritant of the first order. (Why is it that my bombers are ineffective at closing bases while his pathetic 2EB make one strike, score 22,612 hits, and shut down my fields permanently?)

I probably won't hit PB any time soon, but it's an option I always consider from a due diligence standpoint. John has gotten frisky with the amount of shipping he has in the Andaman Sea. It's only temporary, though, unless he can close down or recapture Sabang.


Didn't you know that 4E bombers are overpowered and must be limited in the game?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/8/2013 5:30:52 PM   
princep01

 

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Who died?  Or maybe football is King afterall.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 4:59:42 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: princep01

Who died?  Or maybe football is King afterall.


I think Dan has a family issue to deal with. John says his dad was in an accident.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 5:10:51 AM   
Canoerebel


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This is true, but I sure hope Princep doesn't feel as though he shouldn't have used those words. I understood what he meant. :)

I didn't want to get into this until there was some clarity, but I ought to now since the news seems to be good.

My dad was in a one-vehicle auto accident ten days ago. By last Tuesday, he was heavily sedated and we were positive it was just a matter of time before he passed away. He's nearly 90 years old and has lived life to the fullest (the rascal), so it really wasn't a sad thing. I was mainly just thankful for all the time we had with him.

Tonight I called my stepmom for an update fully expecting to get further sad news. Lo-and-behold, she said when she arrived at the hospital today he was sitting in a chair, awake, and able to respond to questions by squeezing her hand (he has a breathing tube in, which prevents him from talking). We are pretty sure the University of Miami beating the hated Florida Gators yesterday is responsible for this (he played football at Miami in the 1940s, named his business Hurricane Engineering Company, and has hated the Gators with a passion since the late 1920s).

I'm sorry I didn't mention this earlier, but with him apparently in a condition of terminal decline, I just couldn't see turning an AAR into a "death watch" kind of thing. Does that make sense?

I still don't know if my Dad is out of the woods. And, truly, had he passed away, our main feeling would have been thankfulness. But if that ol' rascally Hurricane rallies for more time with us, I won't object. :)

P.S. My dad is a World War II vet, having served in the OSS in the ETO. He landed at Normandy at D+5 and was present in a chalet near the Franco-Swiss border when Field Marshall Kesselrin came in to negotiate the surrnder of the German Army in Italy. He was just a corporal at the time, but he did get to see the bigwigs and had to contribute his dogtags to the effort to keep the German officers in disguise as a security measure. Adolph didn't want them surrendering, after all.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 6:04:33 AM   
Commander Cody


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Glad to hear it about your dad. Sounds like a great guy.

Regarding the fatigue of your CAP at Sabang, I think the zero range is key. I do all of my pilot training at 100% and zero range and there's nary a plane in the shop, while pilot fatigue is acceptable, which is a big difference from the odd squadron of which I inevitably miss setting the range to zero.

Cheers,
CC

< Message edited by Commander Cody -- 9/9/2013 6:05:08 AM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 7:08:02 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Sorry to hear about your dad.

I really hope he pulls through. Sounds like a tough old oak!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 7:40:58 AM   
witpqs

 

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Good luck to your dad!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 12:28:12 PM   
catwhoorg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


P.S. My dad is a World War II vet, having served in the OSS in the ETO. He landed at Normandy at D+5 and was present in a chalet near the Franco-Swiss border when Field Marshall Kesselrin came in to negotiate the surrnder of the German Army in Italy. He was just a corporal at the time, but he did get to see the bigwigs and had to contribute his dogtags to the effort to keep the German officers in disguise as a security measure. Adolph didn't want them surrendering, after all.


Thats the sort of story that never seems to make the history books.

Glad he turned a corner in a positive way.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 4:07:18 PM   
Canoerebel


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12/27/42

The Arena (as John puts it): No sign of enemy carriers, which surprises me. No sign of massed enemy air attacks, which surprises me. I'm just surprised. I was sure the attack would come on the 25th...or 26th...now. But where is the enemy? I am nearly positive it's coming here, though given the surprising quiessence I am considering other possibilities: (1) Diego: Nah. (2) Ceylon or India or Assam: Nah. (3) Australia: I wish. (4) New Zealand: I wish. (5) Anywhere Else: I wish. So the arena has to be Sumatra; and it has to be soon; so I'll just bid my time. Edited to add: John's 6-DD TF sank nine ships retiring to Ceylon - SC, two TK, a few xAP, and mostly xAK - but missed a supply TF that has arrived at Sabang. I'll take these exchanges - supply in, non-critical ships sunk - for the short term until the Battle of Sabang is resolved.

Sabang: I checked on fatigue for my pilots - everything looks great - ranging from 5 to about 15. One P-40E squadron was elevated due to not having enough pilots, so I fixed that. This is the Rourke's Drift and Guadalcanal, so I hope the defenders are made of stout stuff.

Noumea: John has 6th and 56th Divisions at Noumea unable to evict the hodgepodge gathering of Allied units. If you don't mind me giving my opinion, this is a wonderful misallocation of assets - this and the carriers he has over this way. Fighting at the far end of a supply/fuel LOC for territory and troops that really don't matter? I like them there as opposed to Sumatra.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/9/2013 4:16:25 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 4:14:57 PM   
Canoerebel


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For the sake of transparency, I want to tell you that my interest level in the game has flagged considerably. In the event (unlikely, but here's hoping) of a massive Allied victory at Sabang, I'm going to approach John with peace talks. In the event of a Japanese victory in which I am outthought by my opponent and my troops are outperformed fairly, I will soldier on as it wouldn't be sporting to rob John of the enjoyment of a major campaign. If, however, this turns out to be a massively onesided contest due to the wackiness of unlimited Japanese fighters vs. very limited Allied fighters, I will likely request a ceasefire. The Allies are in great position no matter what - Japan hasn't taken any significant territory and the Allied fleet is in excellent shape - but I just don't want to get involved in a three-year slogfest. My heart isn't in it at this point.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/9/2013 4:17:32 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 4:18:23 PM   
Chickenboy


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Dan,

Sorry to hear about your father's accident and his injury. Pleased that he seems to be making a recovery. He sounds like he's lived a very full life and that your perception of this-and the weighting of this in your announcement above-shows your 'head is screwed on right'. Life is what we make of it, not just the number of years one lives. Mortality is inescapable in the long run. Live life!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 4:23:10 PM   
Canoerebel


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Andre, thanks! Ah, the reality of: "It is appointed unto man once to die...."

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 4:46:00 PM   
Galahad78

 

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Sorry to hear about your Dad's accident Canoerebel, glad that he is improving

Ha, I leave the forum for a few weeks and see that you have overtaken Greyjoy's post count, I think that this AAR has fulfilled its mission and you can retire honorably

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 5:01:13 PM   
JocMeister

 

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CR,

I just reached 11/44 in my PBEM and I´m still suffering a serious fighter shortage. This is quite a limiting factor on offensive operations... Just a heads up so you know what's in store. As the allies I don´t think I will ever be able to fight an attritional air war. Not until I can start bombing factories or they have to shut down from lack of HI.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 5:25:43 PM   
Canoerebel


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I've been through this before, but let me tell you what I'd expect now.

The Allies have done very well in the air war - winning it thus far according to my estimation. The Japanese have lost 50% more aircraft than the Allies (7,500 to 5,000). Many of those losses were Tojos in the long and bitter airwar over Akyab and Ramree Island, during which the Allies developed topnotch pilots.

I'd thereofre expect - given what's happened thus far and the end-of-1942 date - that the Allies could afford to stand toe-to-toe with Japan in an air war. Not that the Allies would be guaranteed to win; not that Japan couldn't perform better; but not a onesided show in which the Allies have no chance. I think (but I'm not positive) that's what's about to happen. Perhaps through good pilots and the massive level of air support and the decent numbers of P-40K the Allies will be able to withstand the all-out air battle. I hope so.

You might not forgive me for being blunt, but the Allied invasion of Sumatra was titanically successful. John was negligent in the extreme in leaving such an important area unguarded and without patrols. The Allies have landed a massive army there, with massive support, fully supplied, huge infrastructure, well equipped and supported navy, nearly 900 mines, etc. By every measure the Allies should be able to hold and take advantage of a lodgement so vast. If, however, the air war is the limiting factor that prevents this because it's ridiculously lopsided, I just don't have the heart to continue the game.

I want a game in which the Allies in 1942 can take chances and turn the war against Japan. If the air war prevents that - or makes it all but impossible - so that the Allies have to be much more careful, an exciting element of the game is missing.

I agree that adjustments to the game are warranted to give Japan the ability to fight late - that's in the best interest of all players. I just don't think it's a good idea if the air war is so onesided in 1942 that it essentially prevents the Allies from doing things that otherwise make perfect sense.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 5:34:35 PM   
GreyJoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been through this before, but let me tell you what I'd expect now.

The Allies have done very well in the air war - winning it thus far according to my estimation. The Japanese have lost 50% more aircraft than the Allies (7,500 to 5,000). Many of those losses were Tojos in the long and bitter airwar over Akyab and Ramree Island, during which the Allies developed topnotch pilots.

I'd thereofre expect - given what's happened thus far and the end-of-1942 date - that the Allies could afford to stand toe-to-toe with Japan in an air war. Not that the Allies would be guaranteed to win; not that Japan couldn't perform better; but not a onesided show in which the Allies have no chance. I think (but I'm not positive) that's what's about to happen. Perhaps through good pilots and the massive level of air support and the decent numbers of P-40K the Allies will be able to withstand the all-out air battle. I hope so.

You might not forgive me for being blunt, but the Allied invasion of Sumatra was titanically successful. John was negligent in the extreme in leaving such an important area unguarded and without patrols. The Allies have landed a massive army there, with massive support, fully supplied, huge infrastructure, well equipped and supported navy, nearly 900 mines, etc. By every measure the Allies should be able to hold and take advantage of a lodgement so vast. If, however, the air war is the limiting factor that prevents this because it's ridiculously lopsided, I just don't have the heart to continue the game.

I want a game in which the Allies in 1942 can take chances and turn the war against Japan. If the air war prevents that - or makes it all but impossible - so that the Allies have to be much more careful, an exciting element of the game is missing.

I agree that adjustments to the game are warranted to give Japan the ability to fight late - that's in the best interest of all players. I just don't think it's a good idea if the air war is so onesided in 1942 that it essentially prevents the Allies from doing things that otherwise make perfect sense.



With Crack pilots you can stand.

Remember my game with Rader? In the Solomons, in early 1943, he sent wave after wave...and he lost THOUSANDS of planes. At the end I had won that war of attrition in that scenario.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 5:48:34 PM   
Canoerebel


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Who can forget the epic GJ air battles over Karachi, the Solomons and Hokkaido? Nobody shall ever forget!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 5:52:39 PM   
Miller


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Hope your Dad pulls through. I will be lucky to still be breathing at his age, never mind driving!

With regards to the air war, my opinion is he can produce virtually limitless numbers of fighters and trained pilots, so whilst 1:1 sounds like a good exchange in 42, imo it won't get much better later in the game, maybe 2:1 but even then you will have to husband your fighter pools. I'm finding that out the hard way in my Allied game.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 6:07:15 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've been through this before, but let me tell you what I'd expect now.

The Allies have done very well in the air war - winning it thus far according to my estimation. The Japanese have lost 50% more aircraft than the Allies (7,500 to 5,000). Many of those losses were Tojos in the long and bitter airwar over Akyab and Ramree Island, during which the Allies developed topnotch pilots.

I'd thereofre expect - given what's happened thus far and the end-of-1942 date - that the Allies could afford to stand toe-to-toe with Japan in an air war. Not that the Allies would be guaranteed to win; not that Japan couldn't perform better; but not a onesided show in which the Allies have no chance. I think (but I'm not positive) that's what's about to happen. Perhaps through good pilots and the massive level of air support and the decent numbers of P-40K the Allies will be able to withstand the all-out air battle. I hope so.

You might not forgive me for being blunt, but the Allied invasion of Sumatra was titanically successful. John was negligent in the extreme in leaving such an important area unguarded and without patrols. The Allies have landed a massive army there, with massive support, fully supplied, huge infrastructure, well equipped and supported navy, nearly 900 mines, etc. By every measure the Allies should be able to hold and take advantage of a lodgement so vast. If, however, the air war is the limiting factor that prevents this because it's ridiculously lopsided, I just don't have the heart to continue the game.

I want a game in which the Allies in 1942 can take chances and turn the war against Japan. If the air war prevents that - or makes it all but impossible - so that the Allies have to be much more careful, an exciting element of the game is missing.

I agree that adjustments to the game are warranted to give Japan the ability to fight late - that's in the best interest of all players. I just don't think it's a good idea if the air war is so onesided in 1942 that it essentially prevents the Allies from doing things that otherwise make perfect sense.


The air war is what it is. If I may be blunt this is a self-inflicted wound. You agreed to HRs which give him the ability to use his already vast advantages in numbers and early quality. If you were bombing Palembang this week, even by day, your situation up north would be different and the KB would be doing different things.

I've also got to suggest, gently I hope, CR, that you also went into a scenario specifically designed to advantage Japan against the guy who wrote it, while you refused to even read threads about what it does. Yes, a lot of the changes are to the navy, but not all. And even those make a Japan player able to play more aggressively.

The landing on Sumatra was masterful. It makes my pitiful efforts in the summer of 1942 look just that. But without strategic bombing, and without a full-scale "Nemo" effort on Malaysia in tandem to isolate Singers and mess up those big air fields over there, you were destined to enter a war of attrition. And it's here.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 6:19:33 PM   
kjnoel

 

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The landing itself was a wonderful and unexpected ruse, it's actual value is so far unrealised because of the HR induced inability to reduce Palembang to ashes and the lack of major losses to John. With PDU on you should lose the airwar at this stage due to the lack of depth in your pools coupled with the Tojo, although that window will change in the next couple of months.

What's interesting is whether the Japanese can kick out your LCUs, after your '43 TOE upgrades I bet it won't be possible but maybe before....

This move was never going to be a quick war-winner but it sets up a very very nasty position for mid-43 if it isn't contained, and that's where the real value lies now.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 6:23:56 PM   
Canoerebel


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kfnoel, I agree with you.

Bullwinkle, I don't agree with "the air war is what it is." RA doesn't have a material impact on the air war, to the best of my knowledge. More importantly, it's the fundamental aspect of the air war that I'm addressing. I contend that the Allied pools need to be deeper in '42 in order for the game to realize it's full potential (Heretical Statement!). It's good to make Japan stronger from '42 through '45, but don't leave the Allies crippled in the air war in '42. Unnecessary and counterproductive from a gaming standpoint, I contend.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 6:27:29 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kjnoel

The landing itself was a wonderful and unexpected ruse, it's actual value is so far unrealised because of the HR induced inability to reduce Palembang to ashes and the lack of major losses to John. With PDU on you should lose the airwar at this stage due to the lack of depth in your pools coupled with the Tojo, although that window will change in the next couple of months.

What's interesting is whether the Japanese can kick out your LCUs, after your '43 TOE upgrades I bet it won't be possible but maybe before....

This move was never going to be a quick war-winner but it sets up a very very nasty position for mid-43 if it isn't contained, and that's where the real value lies now.


I agree.

It's a radical notion around here, but why must the Allies oppose a Japanese bombing campaign at Sabang? Every attack does not have to meet with a like defense. Dig in at Sabang, move in more AA if possible, pull out all ships, pull out all aircraft, and just take it. Make him come dig you out with a spoon. The US Army and USMC pools will always be decent on infantry squads. So long as Sabang has supply take the hit. He's at long range from a lot of his bomber bases. Let him eat ops losses and flak losses. Let the Allied fighter pools heal. Occasionally sneak in a CAP for 1-2 days, then disappear. Make him keep escorting strikes; more ops losses, more supply eaten.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 6:32:36 PM   
Canoerebel


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Sabang is clear terrain. Unopposed Japanese bombardment runs will make short work of the base and all its supply. Hence it must be protected by combat ships that must, in turn, be covered by air.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 6:35:54 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

kfnoel, I agree with you.

Bullwinkle, I don't agree with "the air war is what it is." RA doesn't have a material impact on the air war, to the best of my knowledge. More importantly, it's the fundamental aspect of the air war that I'm addressing. I contend that the Allied pools need to be deeper in '42 in order for the game to realize it's full potential (Heretical Statement!). It's good to make Japan stronger from '42 through '45, but don't leave the Allies crippled in the air war in '42. Unnecessary and counterproductive from a gaming standpoint, I contend.


There are important differences in the air war on the naval side in RA. If you don't know that by now that's a problem.

But let me say again--you "broke" the devs' model with HRs. If he had to put 300-500 fighters at Palembang, Oosthaven, Merak, and Benk to save his oil he would have a much richer problem. Not to mention Djambi, Medan, Miri, Brunei . . . You volunteered to let him max his offensive air effort with no need to guard his rear. Without strategic war an invasion of Sumatra in 1942 is much, much less useful, and if it were to be done at all I'd argue Benk should have been the landing point so a drive overland on PBang could work. Might work. With Sabang you have nice LOCs to Ceylon, but what else? What can you threaten that he absolutely must have, right now, in late 1942? That's one reason Nemo said what he said. There are things on Malaysia he "must" have. To run resources home. To work his will in Burma. Sabang by itself can bleed him, but it doesn't knock him over. I know you know the story of Masada and the Romans. Held for a long time. But Masada fell.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 6:37:10 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Sabang is clear terrain. Unopposed Japanese bombardment runs will make short work of the base and all its supply. Hence it must be protected by combat ships that must, in turn, be covered by air.


Then in January 1943 you probably lose a war of attrition there.

Edit: OTOH, if you're prepared to lose 200-300 xAKs you can keep Sabang in supply. That's about 10% of your xAK OOB.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/9/2013 6:45:51 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 6:52:46 PM   
Canoerebel


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Not sure why in the world John would have to post hundreds of fighters over Palembang. Allied 4EB are present in limited numbers and fighters don't have the range for escort. From what I've seen, John could easily defend P'Bang and have scads leftover.

There are many other places that it doesn't make sense to invade if the Allies can't fight a fair air war in late '42.

My point simply is that the Allied replacement pools are too low. This wouldn't be tough to address. Big deal, right?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 7:20:37 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Not sure why in the world John would have to post hundreds of fighters over Palembang. Allied 4EB are present in limited numbers and fighters don't have the range for escort. From what I've seen, John could easily defend P'Bang and have scads leftover.

There are many other places that it doesn't make sense to invade if the Allies can't fight a fair air war in late '42.

My point simply is that the Allied replacement pools are too low. This wouldn't be tough to address. Big deal, right?


I've managed to put at least a dent in Japanese oil and fuel production by the summer of 1942 with a lot fewer 4Es than you have. I don't have escorts either. You just eat the damage and losses and drive on. And he wouldn't need hundreds at PBang. He'd need hundreds at all his POL bases combined.

I just think it's a bit of sour grapes in your what? eighth PBEM game to be suddenly noticing the Allies have weak pools in 1942. I understand you're frustrated. I hear ya, brotha. Every day as I try to get not one, but two (!!!) P38s aloft somewhere to face 60 Oscars I curse the lack of Allied production control. But it is what it is.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 7:21:52 PM   
kjnoel

 

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Why not suggest that to John for the next version of RA? I know he has added "emergency" Allied CVE conversions due to the increased Japanese naval building plans. No reason that the Allies couldn't have brought more aircraft to the party if Japan was more of an issue (ie less of Europe first).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 7:23:36 PM   
Canoerebel


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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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Geez, Moose, it's not sudden and it's not sour grapes. I've made this same thing know before as have other players. I'm not trashing the game as a whole. I'm simply saying a modest boost in Allied aircraft pools would benefit the game as a whole. Sour grapes? Come on.

(in reply to kjnoel)
Post #: 3479
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/9/2013 7:32:41 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8306
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Geez, Moose, it's not sudden and it's not sour grapes. I've made this same thing know before as have other players. I'm not trashing the game as a whole. I'm simply saying a modest boost in Allied aircraft pools would benefit the game as a whole. Sour grapes? Come on.


You say tomato, I say eggplant.

Regardless, what are your intentions re Sabang? Whatever you think of my comments on air power please note what I said about xAKs. You CAN stay if you want, as long as you want, and without feeding ships and planes into the grinder. Until you have Corsairs and Hellcats and Spits. It's just a matter of priorities. For him too of course.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3480
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