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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 3:43:24 AM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

A couple more notes on the movie discussion. The X-men series should be called out for being good action movies that dispensed with cursing and excessive violence. IIRC there is no blood in at least he first 2 movies. As for scenes I find hard to watch I'd like to call out the excellent Gallipoli. The bombardment failed, everyone knew it failed, everyone knew what was about to happen and yet when the whistle blew, over the top they went.
Gallipoli was a historical event but the excellent movie was based on an even better book by Alan Moorehead. Alan Moorehead was entirely incapable of writing a dull sentence much less a dull book. Every single sentence he writes is a tribute to the English language. He can be read just for his mastery of the language and the joy it is to read a master at the top of his game. Not difficult, just clear, concise, interesting and conversational. Gallipoli is a wonderful read for those that like military history is just plain old good reading. One of the finest, if not the finest, books ever written about a military campaign. All of his books are masterpieces but the pinnacle is The Fatal Impact: The Invasion of the South Pacific, 1767-1840.

Agree that Alan Moorhead was an excellent writer, his African Trilogy on the Western Desert Campaign of WW2 was very readable.

About Gallipoli, dont know what the other Aussies here think, but it has a lot of "cringe" scenes where the Pom bashing went too far.

The Lighthorsemen handles the Pom bashing better, and IMVHO is a superior movie.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 3:47:19 AM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: catwhoorg

Another one to try to find.
Geoff Burrowes ANZACS mini-series, produced in the mid-80s. Paul Hogan is one of the leads.

It aired in the UK in a fairly dead slot, middle of the afternoon during the workweek, one episode per day. However, it did so during a week where many schools were closed. I assume it was for weather, but it could have been during a half term week.
Each episode roughly coincides with the key events in a year. 1914 training. 1915 Gallipolli etc.

Ratings ramped up rapidly during the week, so much so, that they re-aired it in an evening slot to very impressive audience figures.
One of the first shows I can recall word of mouth quickly spreading and getting the popularity through the roof.



One of the best TV series to be made in Australia, someone mentioned tears in the eyes.
(While a fictional work, it does use a lot of historical background to the stories, only complaint is sometimes they contrived scens to fit historical words into the script)

Honorary Southerner, I am afraid I couldnt stand for many of the ideals which, from this far distance, I believe it implies.

< Message edited by JeffK -- 8/28/2013 3:48:56 AM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 9:09:16 AM   
Encircled


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quote:

Agree that Alan Moorhead was an excellent writer, his African Trilogy on the Western Desert Campaign of WW2 was very readable.


Great books!

I remember Anzacs as well, thought for some reason I think it was put on Sunday evening over here.

Gumpf like the Sullivans and Neighbours was the lunchtime Oz imports in my youth

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 10:38:04 AM   
String


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Have you considered reinforcing Sumatra or do you have plans to do so, after the fall of Sibolga. I think that is a good example how fragile smaller force concentrations (low number of units) can be vs. a concerted attack.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 11:49:33 AM   
Canoerebel


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Sumatra already has a large concentration of fighting troops - roughly six divisions split between Medan, Langsa and Sabang. But, yes, more troops (mostly support - AA, engineers) are inbound. I don't have near-term plans to send more infantry or armor, because I don't have any unrestricted units left in India and I'm not yet sure I'll need them anyway. So I'm banking PP. If needed, I can then buy more units out of India. If not needed, I'll have an account to draw from to support operations elsewhere.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 2:26:20 PM   
Canoerebel


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12/14/42

Carriers: The situation with shipping and the KB has become very tense. Each click, each move, each day can end in disaster...or it can be completely quiet. You will recall that the enemy carriers slid past Diego to the east, while making generally for Sumatra. Then I lost sight of those carriers. John could easily turn them around and leap right back into the shipping lane between Sabang and Ceylon. I'd say there's a 25% chance he does so - it would be considerably higher, but fuel and spent sorties more than likely persuaded him to replenish. He's spotted the two merchant TFs, but I do not think he's spotted the carriers or the flanker DE. Like I said, there's a 1 in 4 chance he'll leap out and we'll have a big battle, but the current position and window, as evaluated, seems the best to give this a shot. So a shot I shall give it. See map.

Sumatra: All in all, things seem stable and positive at the moment. A big factor is the movement of fuel from Medan to Sabang, which is allowing me to refuel so many of my combat ships that were dry. The American division pushed out of Sibolga is prepping for Langsa and making good movement in that direction. At the moment, John is concentrating his attention on the islands of Nias and Sinabang.

Malaysia: The Japanese have extinquished the Indian brigade and tank unit east of Alor Star, so now that base (defended by 120 AV of 18th UK Div.) will be under assault.

Burma: The Allies will try a new probing attack in the jungle near Ramree tomorrow.

China: John has four divisions ganging up on three Chinese corps (two absolutely depleted after a week of battles) east of Kweilin. The Chinese have held tough, but can't hold indefinitely. This position interdicts the railroad, but isn't part of the Chinese MLR.

New Caledonia: Some troops landed at La Foa and then disappeared, which pretty much ruined my flanking idea. The Allies will deliberate attack at Noumea tomorrow, but I think the IJ garrison will be doubled then.

Overall Situation: John is pretty excited at the moment, judging by his email comments. But overall the Allied situation seems very promising. 35 Days post D-Day, the Allied position in northern Sumatra is very strong. The situation here (and most everywhere) is tense, which you'd expect in December 1942. Tough, tough fighting to come as the Japanese throw themselves at the Allies, but I really like the Allied position and the advantages in position. Sabang is pretty much a fortress. Not unasalable, but darn dangerous for Japan.




Attachment (1)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 5:13:27 PM   
Chickenboy


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Why take such as southerly course with your 'excess' merchantmen en route to Ceylon?  Were I interested in keeping them away from KB, I'd try to ensure they stayed north of your carriers plot at the very least.  Having an empty TF of merchants (intentionally?) exposed to the most probable ingress course of KB will invite criticism about using merchant TFs to soak off KB sorties.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 5:23:09 PM   
Canoerebel


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Huh?

The merchantmen are sprinting (well, as best they can) while there seems to be an open window. They have to go west first due to the threat of LBA from Victoria Point and Port Blair. In another day, they'll be protected (even with or behind) my carriers.

There is no sign of the KB - it was last seen on a southerly course. Of course, John can send them sprinting north, but I'm taking the best available chance.

I have never run a soak off mission and this isn't one. This same TF left Sabang ten days ago but had to return when the KB showed up right in my sea lanes. I sent it back to Sabang post haste (and didn't leave it out there to soak off missions).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 6:24:09 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Huh?

The merchantmen are sprinting (well, as best they can) while there seems to be an open window. They have to go west first due to the threat of LBA from Victoria Point and Port Blair. In another day, they'll be protected (even with or behind) my carriers.



Why not set a course waypoint that is the opposite route of your incoming supply TF? Why dogleg them West at all? Or are your incoming ships coming in a different route than shown to avoid the same VP and PB aircraft?

ETA: Am I misinterpreting your arrows on your map image? From the image, it appears as though your returning TF is some 2-3 hexes further south than your incoming TF. It also appears as though your carriers will be coming in north of both your incoming and outgoing supply TFs. Again, too literal an interpretation of your schematic?

< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 8/28/2013 6:28:08 PM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 7:12:14 PM   
Canoerebel


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The arrows were just approximations - spaced to keep things separate. Basically, the ships going and coming follow much the same course, though I'm not anally retentive about setting the courses.

The Sabang operation involved hundreds of ships. As it wound down, I've sent dozens back in small packages meant to minimize the risk (though, early on, there was little risk so less precautions were necessary). I still have something like 70 merchant ships disbanded at Sabang, plus some damaged combat ships, that need to make the trip back to Ceylon. So I try to trickle them out when windows of opportunity open. Yesterday, I had two valuable AP and AK sprint out of port making for Ceylon. You can very well imagine that I don't want that TF to get hit. Nor do I want any TF to get hit. Nor have I orchestrated a soaking-mission TF. None. Never. This game. Any game.

Bear in mind this is my main sea lane between Sabang and Colombo. Hundreds of ships have been transiting those lanes over the past 35 days. And yet that lane is squeazed between a big and dangerous airfield at Port Blair (Netties from there have claimed five or ten ships already) and the threat from the KB.

The KB threat is huge. With an effective strike radius of, what, 26 hexes (movement of 18 hexes at flank speed, which John does, plus 8 hexes for Kates), John can pounce a LONG way to hit my main sea lane shipping. There's very little I can do about it.

He did that very thing ten days ago. Even though his carriers moved 18 hexes in one day and sat astraddle my main sea lane, over the course of three days he only managed to sink four ships: one AO, one xAK, one AM, and one AMc (the latter two were on ASW duty a hex from Koggala). I had a dozen TFs that scattered in a all directions and made it safely away. Had I wanted to, I could have arranged for soaking TFs since a bunch of empty xAK were included in the mix. But I did my dead-level best to get them out of harm's way and succeeded.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 8:35:46 PM   
Canoerebel


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12/15/42

Carriers: I think something's about to happen. There's a carrier force in the Malacca Straits near Tandjoen - odd since those waters are choked with Allied subs. Even odder is that the cursor shows just a few aux aircraft, no bombers or fighters. I don't know what this is - might be CVE or CS. But it could also be the real thing, or one half of a pincer movement intended to squeeze Sabang between major carrier forces. Meanwhile, the Allied carriers (undetected, best I can tell) will move to a point just five or so hexes NW of Sabang tomorrow. I think something's about to happen, though I'd rather not as my first objective is to get the supply/reinforcement/fuel TF into Sabang.

Noumea: Vals and Zeroes from Koumac just overran the 52 Wildcats on CAP over Noumea and delivered a mortal blow to CVE Prince William, which I've scuttled. (This is the first carrier I've lost in a game since I played Miller about four games and three years ago). Most of the transports have finished unloading, so the ships will make for Auckland. The Allied troops have plenty of supply, but no chance of taking this base short term. Not sure I'll reinforce - the hive is beginnign to buzz.

Time to Get a Haircut: Thus accounting for the brevity of this post even while so much is going on in the game.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 8:49:47 PM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Noumea: Vals and Zeroes from Koumac just overran the 52 Wildcats on CAP over Noumea and delivered a mortal blow to CVE Prince William, which I've scuttled. (This is the first carrier I've lost in a game since I played Miller about four games and three years ago). Most of the transports have finished unloading, so the ships will make for Auckland. The Allied troops have plenty of supply, but no chance of taking this base short term. Not sure I'll reinforce - the hive is beginnign to buzz.


Don´t worry about the CVE. I think you get almost a hundred of them eventually!


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/28/2013 11:33:40 PM   
Canoerebel


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12/16/42

Carriers: No carrier action today (suits me). The Allied carriers are just a five hexes or so from Sabang (and one TF shows low detection). No sign of the KB. The mysterious enemy "carrier" TF with 7 aux aircraft and nothing else is at Tandjoen. Don't know what's with that. All the merchant TFs will arrive at Sabang tonight, so the shepherding mission is over (until the moment of egress arrives in a few days). Enemy subs are all over the area, so the Allied carriers will do something I think would be unexpected - head due west about six or seven hexes. That's Indian country, but it's also far from any enemy LBA and I don't think John will expect it.

Sumatra: Most of the troops arriving at Sabang are engineers and AA. There's also alot of supply and enough fuel to top off all the big combat TFs. The airfield is at 7.63. Yamato and Mogami led a bombardment TF to Langsa.

Noumea: The remaining two CVEs made good time in moving towards Auckland. One of the small amphibious TFs didn't get the word to bug out and got clobbered (I think three xAK went down).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/29/2013 12:16:39 AM   
zuluhour


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Man it's fun reading opposing AARs! I don't believe I will ever start another game without one. I would love to read them side by side when all is said and done. You both have styles which complement each other. Neither similar in tone nor presentation. Real treat.
That is all.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/29/2013 9:03:56 PM   
CaptDave

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think nearly all of you guys are Honorary Southerners. :)


I could never qualify -- I hate biscuits and gravy! (On the other hand, I could eat grits every day.)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/29/2013 10:30:43 PM   
Canoerebel


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12/17/42

A Successful Campaign: The Allied merchantmen carrying supply, fuel and reinforcements safely arrived in Sabang (less a couple of xAK that fell victim to torpedoes the past few days). All Allied combat ships are now fully refueled. The supply level, already very healthy at 189K, will increase by about 60k, and the engineers will move forward to Langsa. This was an important mission, but one that might get overshadowed sometimes by the more sexy aspects of the game.

Carriers: No sign of the KB. The Allied carriers are west of Sabang and will move NW tonight. I think this positioning is relatively risk free since the carriers are well behind the picket DE patroling to the south.

Sumatra: Enemy TFs are approaching from the Andaman Sea area - not sure what these are. Possibly ships making a run for it from the isolated Rangoon position, or possibly John is trying to draw attacks, which would be ironic since I'm not doing that (contrary to Chickenboy's concerns). I'll know better tomorrow. Sabang airfield is at 7.69. It should reach 8 in six days or less. With 400 AV support present, the base can support unlimited aircraft when it reaches level 9, right? (I know that rule has been under reconsideration, but I don't think it's changed yet?). Yamato TF, inbound to bombard Langsa, I think, tangled with a small DD TF, which seemed to void the enemy mission. John has some good and big ships operating in these narrow waters. Eventually, something bad is going to happen to one of them (I hope).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/29/2013 10:42:27 PM   
zuluhour


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A large supply lift to a forward garrison is no laughing matter for 1942. Well done under duress. I am still caught pants down on occasion when the heavies, in numbers, begin to burn through supplies faster than I was prepared. A large IJN BB TF can smack a depot hard as well. Nothing like 60+ days of supply to conduct Ops at will.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 3:05:50 AM   
catwhoorg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

12/17/42

A Successful Campaign: The Allied merchantmen carrying supply, fuel and reinforcements safely arrived in Sabang (less a couple of xAK that fell victim to torpedoes the past few days). All Allied combat ships are now fully refueled. The supply level, already very healthy at 189K, will increase by about 60k, and the engineers will move forward to Langsa. This was an important mission, but one that might get overshadowed sometimes by the more sexy aspects of the game.



Well done. I'm following both so don't tend to comment in any depth, but I am rooting for this operation to be a success. Getting a chunk of supply like that forward is going to be a huge help.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 10:02:17 AM   
String


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why aren't you using PT's?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 3:52:32 PM   
Lomri

 

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Yes, at level 9 you can have "unlimited" aircraft. I believe that there is fine print to that however. I am just speaking from my sense of it.

The AV support you have still matters - repairs are slower if you are in the red.

Lots of aircraft, lots of targets. I think this is something of an upward curve (not linear) - so you'll see a lot more damage/destroyed aircraft from bombardment and airfield bombing the more you have there. It is possible the same engines per airfield point still applies to 'overstacking' effects on bombardment and airfield bombing effects.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 4:05:38 PM   
Canoerebel


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String, I am using PT boats. Often and in big numbers, at and near Sabang.

Lomri, that's good news. Sabang is going to have to stand as a fortress in a sea of enemy, so I'm gonna stack the airfield early and often.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 5:38:20 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

the base can support unlimited aircraft when it reaches level 9, right?

Well, yeah, but you would need unlimited aircraft to take advantage of that, right?
How are those aircraft pools?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 5:50:39 PM   
Canoerebel


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At level nine, Sabang becomes a non-floating aircraft carrier. I can base my carrier fighters AND strike aircraft there in strength. Suddenly, I won't have to devote all available space to defense; the base will become a menace on offense too.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/30/2013 6:32:24 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 6:08:18 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lomri


Yes, at level 9 you can have "unlimited" aircraft. I believe that there is fine print to that however. I am just speaking from my sense of it.

The AV support you have still matters - repairs are slower if you are in the red.

Lots of aircraft, lots of targets. I think this is something of an upward curve (not linear) - so you'll see a lot more damage/destroyed aircraft from bombardment and airfield bombing the more you have there. It is possible the same engines per airfield point still applies to 'overstacking' effects on bombardment and airfield bombing effects.


Somebody needs to correct me . but I think Michealm in one of his Betas (I am not seeing this change in the Beta change log but I remember/ am confabulating the discussion) that level 9 airbases cannot overstack "A 9+ airfield does not suffer from overstacking (p.214), BUT the ol' algorithum of 300 ?Aviation Support? supporting unlimited aircraft has been removed. ?Instead aviation support is simply doubled at a level 9+ base?

There is this rule: "Every friendly airfield with at least one Base Force unit at the airfield will pick one Base Force to be its primary Base Force. The primary Base Force will have its expected full strength value for aviation support points change so that its expected value equals 30 times the current size of the airfield (never
greater than 250)" (p. 261) So the base is guaranteed 250 with 1 aviation support. (1)*9*30 = 270 .. unless Michealm changed this ..

So unlimited stacking and a guaranteed 250 aviation support makes the base pretty strong ...

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 6:30:12 PM   
Xargun

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces
There is this rule: "Every friendly airfield with at least one Base Force unit at the airfield will pick one Base Force to be its primary Base Force. The primary Base Force will have its expected full strength value for aviation support points change so that its expected value equals 30 times the current size of the airfield (never
greater than 250)" (p. 261) So the base is guaranteed 250 with 1 aviation support. (1)*9*30 = 270 .. unless Michealm changed this ..

So unlimited stacking and a guaranteed 250 aviation support makes the base pretty strong ...


I believe that rule only applies to the AI.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 6:32:52 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lomri


Yes, at level 9 you can have "unlimited" aircraft. I believe that there is fine print to that however. I am just speaking from my sense of it.

The AV support you have still matters - repairs are slower if you are in the red.

Lots of aircraft, lots of targets. I think this is something of an upward curve (not linear) - so you'll see a lot more damage/destroyed aircraft from bombardment and airfield bombing the more you have there. It is possible the same engines per airfield point still applies to 'overstacking' effects on bombardment and airfield bombing effects.


Somebody needs to correct me . but I think Michealm in one of his Betas (I am not seeing this change in the Beta change log but I remember/ am confabulating the discussion) that level 9 airbases cannot overstack "A 9+ airfield does not suffer from overstacking (p.214), BUT the ol' algorithum of 300 ?Aviation Support? supporting unlimited aircraft has been removed. ?Instead aviation support is simply doubled at a level 9+ base?

There is this rule: "Every friendly airfield with at least one Base Force unit at the airfield will pick one Base Force to be its primary Base Force. The primary Base Force will have its expected full strength value for aviation support points change so that its expected value equals 30 times the current size of the airfield (never
greater than 250)" (p. 261) So the base is guaranteed 250 with 1 aviation support. (1)*9*30 = 270 .. unless Michealm changed this ..

So unlimited stacking and a guaranteed 250 aviation support makes the base pretty strong ...

- AF size 8 or greater have their air support tally doubled.

- There is no longer a cap of 250 air support = infinity. There is no cap at all. Have 2,000 aircraft there, need 2,000 air support to be fully covered, and so on.

I do not recall if those changes are in the last official patch or in a Beta after that time.

That rule you quoted is mysterious to me. This is the first I recall hearing about it.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 6:38:04 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lomri


Yes, at level 9 you can have "unlimited" aircraft. I believe that there is fine print to that however. I am just speaking from my sense of it.

The AV support you have still matters - repairs are slower if you are in the red.

Lots of aircraft, lots of targets. I think this is something of an upward curve (not linear) - so you'll see a lot more damage/destroyed aircraft from bombardment and airfield bombing the more you have there. It is possible the same engines per airfield point still applies to 'overstacking' effects on bombardment and airfield bombing effects.


Somebody needs to correct me . but I think Michealm in one of his Betas (I am not seeing this change in the Beta change log but I remember/ am confabulating the discussion) that level 9 airbases cannot overstack "A 9+ airfield does not suffer from overstacking (p.214), BUT the ol' algorithum of 300 ?Aviation Support? supporting unlimited aircraft has been removed. ?Instead aviation support is simply doubled at a level 9+ base?

There is this rule: "Every friendly airfield with at least one Base Force unit at the airfield will pick one Base Force to be its primary Base Force. The primary Base Force will have its expected full strength value for aviation support points change so that its expected value equals 30 times the current size of the airfield (never
greater than 250)" (p. 261) So the base is guaranteed 250 with 1 aviation support. (1)*9*30 = 270 .. unless Michealm changed this ..

So unlimited stacking and a guaranteed 250 aviation support makes the base pretty strong ...

- AF size 8 or greater have their air support tally doubled.

- There is no longer a cap of 250 air support = infinity. There is no cap at all. Have 2,000 aircraft there, need 2,000 air support to be fully covered, and so on.

I do not recall if those changes are in the last official patch or in a Beta after that time.

That rule you quoted is mysterious to me. This is the first I recall hearing about it.


Ok that was it .. 250 == infinity for a level 9 airbase was the change Michealm made ..
although the doubling of air support for >7 makes it sort of a moot point ...

Now as for as the rule on p 261 .. I have not observed the software behavior so I can not verify if the rule matches the software or if this has been changed along the way .....

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(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3327
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 6:46:52 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14893
Joined: 10/4/2004
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quote:

Now as for as the rule on p 261 .. I have not observed the software behavior so I can not verify if the rule matches the software or if this has been changed along the way .....

I think Xargun nailed that one, must be AI specific.

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(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 3328
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 6:51:29 PM   
Canoerebel


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Do I understand, then, than 8 is the new 9? IE, once Sabang airfield goes to level 8 (in about three days), air support is doubled. So, I currently have about 450 support, meaning I can handle 900 aircaft (engines) there? Or is a level 8 field still restricted to 50 x 8 engines (so that while support is doubled, the limit on aircraft remains the same).

I'm confused!

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 8/30/2013 6:52:30 PM >

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 3329
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/30/2013 7:29:27 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 2621
Joined: 7/9/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Do I understand, then, than 8 is the new 9? IE, once Sabang airfield goes to level 8 (in about three days), air support is doubled. So, I currently have about 450 support, meaning I can handle 900 aircaft (engines) there? Or is a level 8 field still restricted to 50 x 8 engines (so that while support is doubled, the limit on aircraft remains the same).

I'm confused!


Lvl 8: Support doubles ..aircraft stacking limits still apply
Lvl 9+ Support Doubles .. no aircraft stacking limits ...

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Patients and providers of healthcare win with interprofessional practice http://ipep.arizona.edu/blog

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3330
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