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Rookie seeking guidance - 11/29/2012 4:23:55 PM   
SigUp

 

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Hello everyone, I am new here, just playing my second GC as Germany against the AI (normal), so plenty of rookie mistakes. I have a particular question about how to break open Leningrad. As can be seen in the attached picture I just closed the land connection to Leningrad at Schlisselburg. Now I see that the hex next to Pavlovo where I intend to cross the next few turns is heavily fortified. 3 Rifle Divisions in Level 2 forts (the soft factor here is morale). Now, facing this fortified position I am unsure how to break it open and hope the experienced guys here can lend me a hand. Thanks.





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< Message edited by SigUp -- 11/29/2012 4:24:30 PM >
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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/29/2012 4:26:36 PM   
morvael


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What about closing the supply via Lake Ladoga? The defense to the east seem weak.

edit: attack the 1=4, sneak behind the big stack routing the HQ and attack the 3=15 stack - they will rout if forced to retreat. From then on you can have almost open road to the north-east. Can't see bigger picture though.

< Message edited by morvael -- 11/29/2012 4:28:20 PM >

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/29/2012 8:49:30 PM   
Bentley241@gmail.com


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Morvael is talking about the small ports still controlled by the Russians to the east of Leningrad.  When you capture those, Leningrad will be cut off.

If you connect with the Fins to the east, this also cuts off supply to Leningrad.



< Message edited by Bentley241@gmail.com -- 11/29/2012 8:50:01 PM >


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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/29/2012 9:45:57 PM   
vandev

 

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The direct way to attack is as follows. First you must clear the hex to the east and west of Schisselburg. You will need one hex clear of a zone of control to cross the river after you will. You will attack from 2 hexes. The 3 soviet divisions have a cv of 9 doubled to 18 as a result of terrain. You need an effective cv of 18 after the 1/3 hit from attacking over the river. This means you need at least 60 cv from 2 hexes. Reserve activations compilcate this and likely you will need to repeat your attack over a couple if turns.

Next you need a great assualt infantry corp for the main attack. Put Model in command and stack 6 to 9 eng in the infantry divisions.
Make sure there is plenty of artillery to go around. The other corp may need to be rested armor to make sure you can reach the required cv total. Make sure your corp commanders are within 1 hex, army commanders within 2 hexes and army group commander within 3 hexes. If you are lucky in your command rolls and your engineers clear out all three forts you win. Keep trying till you do win, it can take a few turns. You may even want both assualting corps to be in the same army.

Additional tricks. Use 1 infantry corp full of eng to attack once to reduce the fort level and add fatigue to the defenders then retreat to make room for the main assualt. This is another reason to clear out the hexes next to schisselburg so you have room to feed in troops. You may also want to clear the swamp hex east of your 32-7 inf stack to get rid of its zoc too. Also you could put 1 full panzer corp and as many inf divisions as you can on reserve and not in an enemy zoc to help aid the main assualt.

Additional air tactics. Bomb the port the turn before the assualt to try and lower supply and try and keep the port damaged each and every turn until you cross the river. At the beginning of the turn bomb the target hex using all your level bombers and stuka's if you have them. I like to do 2 or 3 smaller attacks vs one large one.

This is the direct assualt over the neva river, alternatively you can try to take all three lake lagoda ports or cut the rail line far enough to the east such that leningrad will be isolated. Hope this helps.

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/30/2012 12:34:50 AM   
Wally Wilson


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I'm far from an expert, but based on what I see in the pic, I'd attack east first and take the ports in order to fully isolate LG before assaulting it. If you are close to December and running out of time before the blizzard, push the assault.

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/30/2012 12:57:20 AM   
SigUp

 

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Thanks everybody for the suggestions. I think I will try to go to Sviritsa, seems to be the easier way. The AI kind of surprised me with how well fortified Leningrad was. It should have made me suspicious when the Luga line was only lightly defended. Time should be enough, it's August 14th. On the other hand, if I reach Sviritsa, at least 20 Rifle Divisions (that's how many there are in the screen, 20 Rifle Divisions and the Airborne Brigade), are done for.

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/30/2012 7:16:35 AM   
morvael


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Do remember to reach as far as you can in one go (group more panzers & mot for the breakthrough) as once you will end your turn the AI would certainly teleport many units to defend that area.

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/30/2012 7:56:35 AM   
SigUp

 

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Yep, I'm currently thinking about how to do it the best way. XXXXI Panzer is currently resting at the Volkhov north of Novgorod (II Corps that is supposed to guard this part of the Volkhov is currently occupied with clearing Novgorod). It is unlikely that XXXXI can participate in a deep breakthrough operation the next turn. LVI is somewhat short of fuel right now. A possible way would be to conduct HQ buildups the next turn (right now before FBD move they are 26 MP away from the railhead) and reach Sviritsa in one go. But that would give the AI two turns time to secure the Volkhov. Another way would be to first secure a Volkhov bridgehead the next turn.

Speaking of HQ buildups, where is a general motor pool guideline below which one should not conduct them? Currently my vehicle stock has dropped to 180K with 149K needed

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/30/2012 10:19:04 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SigUp

Hello everyone, I am new here, just playing my second GC as Germany against the AI (normal), so plenty of rookie mistakes. I have a particular question about how to break open Leningrad. As can be seen in the attached picture I just closed the land connection to Leningrad at Schlisselburg. Now I see that the hex next to Pavlovo where I intend to cross the next few turns is heavily fortified. 3 Rifle Divisions in Level 2 forts (the soft factor here is morale). Now, facing this fortified position I am unsure how to break it open and hope the experienced guys here can lend me a hand. Thanks.






Best way to kick in door.

1. clear the hex with 3=15
2. Clear hex with 7=31
3. Set-up a Corp with 4 good infantry divisions and Model in charge. Add in at least 8 artillary units and 6 pioneers.
4. Have a Corp of 4 panzer divisions in the same army as Models Corp with the army being lead by a 8 initiative.
5. Put panzer in reserve mode.
6. Move 4 infantry divisions into the 2 hexes, 2 more just behind. Move another divisions just behing split into regiments.

Bomb the hex 2 times with 20 bombers each raid, have the regiments assault across river one at a time-no air support.

Move the 2 other divisions into the assault hexes. There should be 2 other infantry divisions from that corp close by put in reserve mode also.
Trun ground support up to 300%.

Assault across the river with Models Corp and the 2 other divisions. At a min you will lower the fort lvl. If you push back the units in fort the panzer units will have more then enough MP's to take hex and attack if possible vs a 1-10 cv hex.

This assault will work withen 3 turn. Tested it 10 times and never failed to take hex on 3rd try no matter how many fresh units are on other side. Once the fort is dropped to 0 its over.

If you set things up right its possible to get 2 full assaults in a single turn also.


< Message edited by Pelton -- 11/30/2012 10:20:22 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/30/2012 12:29:31 PM   
SigUp

 

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Wow, thanks for the detailed description. I will certainly have a try at it, that's what games against the AI are good for.

EDIT: Another question, what is the best use for the SS Cavalry Brigade and the Static Divisions? Thanks in advance.

< Message edited by SigUp -- 11/30/2012 3:18:33 PM >

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 11/30/2012 11:14:50 PM   
turtlefang

 

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You can learn alot by listenting to Pelton on game tactics. He is consider one of the best German player's around. If he is giving a private lesson, count yourself lucky you not adding to his win column.

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 12/2/2012 4:05:29 PM   
SigUp

 

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It worked, big thanks to Pelton. After clearing the first 2 hexes towards the Volkhov I had to discover that the AI had massively fortified the west bank of the Volkhov (including a level 3 fort with a defensive CV of 58). The attack over the Neva worked on the first try, LVI Panzer Corps exploited and conquered the port hex in one go. Around 25 Soviet divisions are in the bag.

< Message edited by SigUp -- 12/2/2012 4:10:03 PM >

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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 12/2/2012 6:58:29 PM   
Pelton

 

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Good job.



_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to SigUp)
Post #: 13
RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 12/2/2012 9:45:06 PM   
HITMAN202


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Pelton's the man, but a few comments. Hasty soak off attacks across the Neva are costly. Also to use them to trigger Soviet reserve activation in that setting can be ineffective. It costs 5 MP to make them across a major river and with a division with 12 MP's broken downed to 3 regiments, two attacks per regiment x 3 regiments equals 6 hasties. I'm estimating, but with 2-3 Soviet Corp HQ's in Leningrad with 3-4 divisions each , reserve activation will occur roughly half the time. It's also an estimate, but six hasties (in the example above) will trigger roughly half of the potential activations. So the soak off attacks will help only 1/4 the time (triggering activation). But it doesn't mean that it will make the planned major attack succeed. Again, it's an estimate, but I think 6 hasties (in the above example) will increase success only 10 %. Again these are very rough estimates.

Now hasties in open terrain can be a game changer. A 12 MP infantry division can make 15 hasties (3 regiments, 5 hasty attacks (it costs 2 MP's in terrain without rivers) each equals 15... you keep 2 MP's to move the division out of the way of the major attack.) Now I'm making a very complicated situation simple, but I hope I'm not being too confusing.

My point is that instead of figuring out soak off attacks across the Neva, focus on.... 1) air assaults that cause causualties 3 times. I think this is far more effective than 2 attacks that don't cause casualties. And making "effective" preliminary delierate attacks.

Again it's a guess and it depends on the situation, but in the situation examined, I think it's better to make a deliberate attack with infantry units that "could " be placed in reserve mode. Now with armor units, it's possible to do both, but again it gets complicated and they have to have the necessary MP's.

Pelton's the man, but I think this is a better( and most importantly, an easier) way to skin a cat.. I mean the Soviet bear.

< Message edited by HITMAN202 -- 12/2/2012 11:21:34 PM >


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RE: Rookie seeking guidance - 12/4/2012 10:55:28 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Pelton's the man, but a few comments. Hasty soak off attacks across the Neva are costly. Also to use them to trigger Soviet reserve activation in that setting can be ineffective. It costs 5 MP to make them across a major river and with a division with 12 MP's broken downed to 3 regiments, two attacks per regiment x 3 regiments equals 6 hasties. I'm estimating, but with 2-3 Soviet Corp HQ's in Leningrad with 3-4 divisions each , reserve activation will occur roughly half the time. It's also an estimate, but six hasties (in the example above) will trigger roughly half of the potential activations. So the soak off attacks will help only 1/4 the time (triggering activation). But it doesn't mean that it will make the planned major attack succeed. Again, it's an estimate, but I think 6 hasties (in the above example) will increase success only 10 %. Again these are very rough estimates.

Now hasties in open terrain can be a game changer. A 12 MP infantry division can make 15 hasties (3 regiments, 5 hasty attacks (it costs 2 MP's in terrain without rivers) each equals 15... you keep 2 MP's to move the division out of the way of the major attack.) Now I'm making a very complicated situation simple, but I hope I'm not being too confusing.

My point is that instead of figuring out soak off attacks across the Neva, focus on.... 1) air assaults that cause causualties 3 times. I think this is far more effective than 2 attacks that don't cause casualties. And making "effective" preliminary delierate attacks.

Again it's a guess and it depends on the situation, but in the situation examined, I think it's better to make a deliberate attack with infantry units that "could " be placed in reserve mode. Now with armor units, it's possible to do both, but again it gets complicated and they have to have the necessary MP's.

Pelton's the man, but I think this is a better( and most importantly, an easier) way to skin a cat.. I mean the Soviet bear.


Yes Hitmans way of doing it is better in the long run.

The soaking attacks cause the units in question to fire everything they have. By the time the main attack happens they have no ammo and do not fire, so the win is basicly backed into the cake before the main assault.





< Message edited by Pelton -- 12/4/2012 10:56:06 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to HITMAN202)
Post #: 15
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