China & Subs

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> The War Room >> China & Subs

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China & Subs - 11/29/2012 3:15:08 AM

John B.

Posts: 38
Joined: 9/25/2011
Status: offline

Hello,

two newbie questions and I've checked other threads before posting this.

1. In China my opponent has wised up and is using his airforce to great effect. He bombs at 4,000 feet and even Chinese AA units are unable to down any planes. His Tojos seem to be pretty well indestructable by my p-40ks, even when I get the bounce on them, and my pilots aren't slackers (exp. 65+ on average). Any ideas? It's February 43.

2. In the sub war I had a very good January 43 I had a very good month but in Feburary by torpedos started to bounce again which is a little sad. That being said, I have the geographic choke points covered by subs but any hints on how the US should run the sub war?

Thanks.

John

Post #: 1

RE: China & Subs - 11/29/2012 4:28:41 AM

Dan Nichols

Posts: 863
Joined: 8/30/2011
Status: offline

I will answer #2 some.

Your MK-14 torpedoes still have a 60% dud rate. In September 1943 they will change to a 10% dud rate.
You will have to wait for consistent success with your USN Fleet subs. I think January was just a bit
lucky for you.

As for #1, P-40Ks are not really suitable for A2A combat against Tojos.

(in reply to John B.)

Post #: 2

RE: China & Subs - 11/29/2012 1:14:57 PM

John B.

Posts: 38
Joined: 9/25/2011
Status: offline

Dan,

thanks for the responses. I figured it was a bit lucky in January. Any sub deployment options or tactics beyond flood the choke points?

Alas p-40ks are the best I have (beyond two squadrons of p-38s in Timor).

John

(in reply to Dan Nichols)

Post #: 3

RE: China & Subs - 11/29/2012 8:57:44 PM

jmalter

Posts: 983
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: online

subs are best put on a patrol-zone in single-sub TFs, i generally use 3-hex zones of adjacent or 2-hex-distant line or triangle patterns, w/ 1 day at each hex. these patrols can stay on station for months, and accrue far less damage than they would if the patrol points are widely separated or if 0-day 'linger' is used.

imo a sub that is moving has a much better chance of detecting an enemy TF than one that is sitting at a single hex on 'remain on station' orders.

in areas of high air-ASW activity, i'll sometimes configure a patrol zone w/ 2 adjacent hexes inshore & a third that's 4-6 hexes offshore, hoping to give the sub a chance to shake off any detection it's acquired.

(in reply to John B.)

Post #: 4

RE: China & Subs - 12/1/2012 12:10:22 AM

Wally Wilson

Posts: 98
Joined: 6/22/2011
From: The Republic of Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

in areas of high air-ASW activity, i'll sometimes configure a patrol zone w/ 2 adjacent hexes inshore & a third that's 4-6 hexes offshore, hoping to give the sub a chance to shake off any detection it's acquired.

That's a fantastic idea. It never occured to me.

(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 5

RE: China & Subs - 12/1/2012 5:45:41 PM

Crackaces

Posts: 2314
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

subs are best put on a patrol-zone in single-sub TFs, i generally use 3-hex zones of adjacent or 2-hex-distant line or triangle patterns, w/ 1 day at each hex. these patrols can stay on station for months, and accrue far less damage than they would if the patrol points are widely separated or if 0-day 'linger' is used.

imo a sub that is moving has a much better chance of detecting an enemy TF than one that is sitting at a single hex on 'remain on station' orders.

in areas of high air-ASW activity, i'll sometimes configure a patrol zone w/ 2 adjacent hexes inshore & a third that's 4-6 hexes offshore, hoping to give the sub a chance to shake off any detection it's acquired.

also shake of the impending SC's/DD's ASW forces sure to be attracted to the pattern ..

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(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 6

RE: China & Subs - 12/2/2012 7:49:00 PM

MuguNiner

Posts: 79
Joined: 8/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

subs are best put on a patrol-zone in single-sub TFs, i generally use 3-hex zones of adjacent or 2-hex-distant line or triangle patterns, w/ 1 day at each hex. these patrols can stay on station for months, and accrue far less damage than they would if the patrol points are widely separated or if 0-day 'linger' is used.

I was using the auto generated patrol zones. On the first day after I changed to your suggestion, my sub attack opportunities spiked!

It keeps my subs focused on the areas that I want patrolled. I have applied this idea to my ASW groups as well.

Thanks

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(in reply to jmalter)

Post #: 7

RE: China & Subs - 12/3/2012 7:05:02 AM

jmalter

Posts: 983
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: online

yr welcome Mugu9er. i've never used the auto-subs thing, did it assign subs to patrol zones, or did it send them out to stand on station in a single hex? imo the latter tactic is pert' near useless.

another thing to watch is sub upgrades. subs on patrol zones will automatically return to base if they need fuel or torps, but they won't disband to accept an upgrade. i try to periodically review subs from the 'ships' screen & often find a boat or three that's 4-5 months past due for an upgrade. many USN fleet-boats have a series of 5 upgrades, but they can be done at advanced bases (no shipyard req'd). some Dutch subs are also upgradeable. most important is to get radar upgrades, to improve their ability to find enemy ships & evade air-attack.

i use a lot of patrol-zone action for local ASW defense, too. these guys also need maintenance oversight to make sure you're not missing an upgrade that'll give a tasty increase to their ASW capability. but there's a weird thing that happens w/ the patrol-zones in my game, i generally give ASW TFs a 3-hex zone, the third of which is a 2-day stay in their home-port. sometimes these guys just continue to hang out in their home-port, rather than sail on to their next station-point. i have to cancel the PZ & rebuild it, to get these ships moving again.

(in reply to MuguNiner)

Post #: 8

RE: China & Subs - 12/4/2012 5:11:47 AM

MuguNiner

Posts: 79
Joined: 8/10/2004
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All you need to do is select "patrol around target", that is what I was refering to as the auto generated patrol zone. It generates a zone with three stop over hexes, but was not a focused patrol. Try using it and you will see what it does. Your idea is much better. I can spend few hours on setting up a days orders, and something like that button made things go a little faster. However, now that I see the value of spending a little time on specifying a patrol zone, I will continue to use it.

maybe i should be checking my "routing control" too...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by MuguNiner -- 12/4/2012 5:13:17 AM >

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Post #: 9

RE: China & Subs - 12/4/2012 6:17:03 AM

jmalter

Posts: 983
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: online

ok MuguNiner - i thought you were referring to the Preferences option for 'Automatic Submarine Operations', i've never used that (or the Auto-Convoy system).

i've often used the partol-around-target screen to begin the setup of a patrol around an isolated island target, Truk for instance, then modify it as needed. it can speed up the process a bit, which gets tedious when you're trying to herd a fat dozen of newly-arrived subs.

wrt routing, i always use 'direct' for subs, to minimize fuel-use & damage accrual during transit from base to zone, & to maximize time-on-station. 'struth, i use 'direct' for 90% of all my TFs, relying on waypoints to guide them safely away from enemy air-bases. but i play vs. the AI, i'd prob'ly work it differently in a PBEM.

(in reply to MuguNiner)

Post #: 10

RE: China & Subs - 12/5/2012 5:04:34 PM

aphrochine

Posts: 187
Joined: 3/24/2008
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline

Regarding the air, the only thing you can do is try to get altitude over the Tojos. Planes will only dive so far when sweeping, so put your top cover as high as you can...then keep some lower alt CAP to remain in tact for the bombers. If all he is doing in sweeping, dont contest. From my experience if he flies escorts too high, you can fairly easily engage the bombers with layered CAP. P-40K's will tear into his bombers and once they are understrength, there is not much reason to even fight the Tojos. If he lowers his escorts to better cover the bombers, your top cover can dive on the Tojos. For your top cover squadron, make sure you put the best of your best in that squadron, prioritizing on Def Skill imo.

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Post #: 11

RE: China & Subs - 12/6/2012 1:18:41 AM

John B.

Posts: 38
Joined: 9/25/2011
Status: offline

I've gone to doing my sub patrol zones myself as well. I have each sub do three hexes in a triangle in an interlocked line and I can move the line back and forth at geographic choke points to lessen the effect of his ASW patrols. I want each of his convoys to have to pass through my sub lines at least twice before they get to the home islands. I'm also careful to put good naval commanders with high aggression on my subs. By the way, I think a nice upgrade would be to track the "kills" of sub commanders like they do with pilots. It would be interesting to see tonnage kills for these guys. I figure that his AKs and TKs are the weak link in his empire so I've sent out CV raids solely to kill merchants.

As for the fighters, you guys are right. You really need to use the layered CAP approach. We have a house rule that I can only use chinese and Tenth Airforce units in China which limits what I can do but, I guess China really is a story of just trying to hang on as long as possible and to not lose it there for the allies.

Thanks for all of the advice, it's great and I LOVE this game.

(in reply to aphrochine)

Post #: 12

RE: China & Subs - 12/6/2012 9:43:38 PM

Lecivius

Posts: 641
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

Thanks for all of the advice, it's great and I LOVE this game.

Another soul lost to WITPAE

(in reply to John B.)

Post #: 13

RE: China & Subs - 12/9/2012 3:07:33 AM

khyberbill

Posts: 1821
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline

quote:

1. In China my opponent has wised up and is using his airforce to great effect. He bombs at 4,000 feet and even Chinese AA units are unable to down any planes. His Tojos seem to be pretty well indestructable by my p-40ks, even when I get the bounce on them, and my pilots aren't slackers (exp. 65+ on average). Any ideas? It's February 43.

In my experience, P47s at 31k are the only answer to sweeping Tojos. If Tojos are escorting then the only way I have been able to counter them is having more planes. Many more. However sweeping Tojos have decimated my cap more than once (30 or 40 P40's lost in a turn). I have not had success with P38's because they have always been out-numbered in 42 and 43. Most games I play limit altitude to best maneuver band,

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(in reply to John B.)

Post #: 14