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RE: Limit Theory

 
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RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 6:55:33 AM   
JoshParnell

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 11/30/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kayoz
A* has been around for ages, yes - I'm quite well aware of that. There are as many variations of it as there are implementations, though - since that largely depends on how you do your map.

My observation was based on two statements:
"obstacle avoidance is one of those nastier low-level implementation details that can be tricky"
"space sim AI is a good bit simpler, and affords the programmer more time to worry about the "cool/fun" part of AI (high-level) and worry less about"

You seem to think that pathfinding is a big part of your game's AI - where it isn't. Look at any flight combat simulator - once the physics model is done to simulate their flying - the nasty bit of how they fly comes into question. Bank left, right, pull an Immelmann? In your case, will they play dodge-em around asteroids or try to hit your flanks while you focus on one of them? What goods the NPC traders are carrying and to where - That's where your "real" AI starts to come in.


Sorry, I never intended to suggest that pathfinding is a big part of my game's AI...and just so we're clear, here's my statement: pathfinding and obstacle avoidance are trivial in this game. All I said is that it frees up more time to work on the high-level AI.

I understand the "how to fly" might seem like a difficult problem if you haven't implemented it. The truth, however, is that it's fantastically simple. The underlying methodology is that, at all times, you have several AI "substrategies" that get to submit votes on a heading. The votes are aggregated as a weighted average, and the current heading is exponentially smoothed with the new heading, as determined by this aggregation. Now, to determine heading, we have several different types of behaviors. Dodging around obstacles, as you mentioned, is implemented by performing a proximity query on the ship, then selecting an obstacle that is relatively close, choosing a random point on the surface of it's world-space AABB, then voting for a heading in the direction of that point. This provides compelling "dodge-em" mechanics. Trying to hit your flanks, of course, is completely trivial - one sets the heading to point towards the target ship. Or, better yet, a random point on the surface of the target ship's world-space AABB, which provides interesting variation when the target is a large ship. Now, there are also concurrent substrategies submitting votes to achieve obstacle avoidance, or for maintaining a formation, or whatever other behavior you'd like. In either case, I'd be happy to explain to you exactly how the heading is computed if you think it's difficult.

As for trading. Here's a simple model: suppose the NPC has a set of known locations. Randomly select some subset of these locations (for variability). Choose some subset of trade goods (perhaps the NPC deals in a certain type of good; it's trivial to generate such a set). Compute the good with the largest price differential among the locations, or, perhaps, the largest price differential per unit volume (again, it's obviously simple, just an outer loop over goods and an inner loop over locations). Now, invoke a "trade" strategy, where the good is the chosen good with maximal price differential, the "source" is the location with the lowest price, and the destination is the planet with the highest price. Other AI strategies, e.g. "TravelTo" will perform the rest of the work. Of course, this is a very simple algorithm, and the algorithms in LT are more complex. Nonetheless, it is a perfectly valid way to determine "what goods the NPC traders and carrying and to where."

Now, I invite you to point out where exactly the complexity lies in either of those tasks.

quote:

Burying your resume somewhere on the 20th page of a forum post or some obscure Wordpress blog isn't being honest about things. You don't put it on your Kickstarter page, do you? You don't put it on your ltheory.com page, do you? If I look in the places normal people look, I can't find it. That's worrying.


What? My resume is as plain as day on the website that is my namesake, which is indeed linked under my Kickstarter page under my profile...if you find it, I guess you'll see that I have little to hide. Many people have already commented on the resume..?

quote:


My experience? When I come asking for $50k in donations, I'll happily release my details. The fact is that I'm not and you are. But you've got some $89k in pledges already. More than enough.


Ah, of course. I guess that answer doesn't surprise anyone ;)

quote:

But wait - Elite: Dangerous is a project proposed by one of the very same people who made the original Elite - he invented the whole genre. Yet he - a seasoned professional who's actually done it - has budgeted $1.25 million. You claim to be able to do largely the same thing for... 4% (1/25) of the budget? And you seriously expect people to trust you at your word? If I propose to build someone a car that'll go like a Ferrari for 4% of the cost of a real Ferrari - I'd expect to be laughed at and openly mocked.


No, I don't claim to be able to do "largely the same thing." There are some immense difference between E:D and LT. For example, all content in LT is procedural. This slashes the development cost by a good bit already, as I have no need for artists. But, most importantly, LT is not multiplayer. Another huge slash in dev cost. Yes, you're right, I guess I would laugh if you claimed to be able to make a Ferrari for 4% the cost. Luckily, I'm not offering to do so. Hopefully you'll refrain from such straw-man comparisons in the future.

quote:

Oh, that's precious. Coming from someone who has zero professional experience. You made my day. Biggest giggle all day. Abandon the game and go into comedy - it's clearly your calling.


Kayoz, the more you protract this argument, the more it becomes clear to the readers of this thread that you have not done your homework, nor are you interested in a real debate. At every opportunity, you avoid the real meat of the argument and instead rely on undermining my "experience" or the ever-winning sarcasm. Given that your attitude suggests immense practical knowledge of game development, I think both me and the other readers would appreciate it if you would explain exactly why I can't make LT for $50K, or at least why AI is so difficult. Again, I would like to hear something that indicates that you actually know what it takes to implement one of the concepts that you've discussed, but, thus far, I have only heard imaginary complexities.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 61
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 8:19:25 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
Now, I invite you to point out where exactly the complexity lies in either of those tasks.


White noise. Clouds of fog.

If it were really so simple, every programmer would code the game of his dreams in his spare time. If you think it's so easy, then the best of luck. Better programmers than you have tried to write their own games in their spare time, and burned out or gave up. Generally, ya it looks easy peasy to code. All straightforward and simple. If only it were that way, gamers would be drowning in a sea of choices and innovation.

I'm not going to try to tell you where all the game development pitfalls are - I can't, as each journey down that path is unique. You ask the impossible. That you think it's all clear sailing and your "procedural sails" will blow you to the other side of this sea - well, that says it all, doesn't it? Maybe you're the new Columbus to discover the "procedural land of milk and honey". Some people seem to believe your hype on Kickstarter. I'll voice my skepticism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
What? My resume is as plain as day on the website that is my namesake, which is indeed linked under my Kickstarter page under my profile...if you find it, I guess you'll see that I have little to hide. Many people have already commented on the resume..?


You hide it on a site that can't be accessed and times out for every access - and this proves what?

Most people won't dig around for that sort of information. Most people won't read the fine print when they sign a contract. Shockingly enough, there are groups of people all too eager to exploit the general unwillingness or inability of people to pick through contracts.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
quote:


My experience? When I come asking for $50k in donations, I'll happily release my details. The fact is that I'm not and you are. But you've got some $89k in pledges already. More than enough.


Ah, of course. I guess that answer doesn't surprise anyone ;)


D'uh. No fecal matter, Sherlock. I like my privacy.

I have a professional reputation to uphold, unlike you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell
No, I don't claim to be able to do "largely the same thing." There are some immense difference between E:D and LT. For example, all content in LT is procedural.


"Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

You spout "procedural" like it's the panacea for all game development woes. It has it's place - the foliage in Skyrim or the planet images in any space game. Yet somehow you're going to expand this to cover -everything- in the game. Ships, bases, opponents, trade, as only teasers.

It it were so easy to do, someone would have done it. Braben would use it if it would cut his costs by a factor of 25. Bethseda would use it to slash their artistic budget to ribbons. Heck, the applications to other industries only cascade from there. Quite oversight on their part!

And yet you - a 20 year old with zero experience - proposes that he's out-thought all those minds working at those companies? You've seized upon an idea that has evaded armies of programmers?

If that's so, then the world is your oyster - you'll revolutionize the computing industry. Or if not, you'll go down as yet another another dreamer (or worse). Apply Occam's Razor to that and maybe you'll see why I'm so skeptical.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to JoshParnell)
Post #: 62
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 8:20:46 AM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 12/1/2012
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quote:

Kayoz, the more you protract this argument, the more it becomes clear to the readers of this thread that you have not done your homework, nor are you interested in a real debate.


Never has a truer word been spoken, seems to me that Kayoz is simply arguing for the sake of argument. But sadly his entire argument seems to consist of "you cant do it cause its too hard" without offering a shred of evidence why not.

quote:

There are some immense difference between E:D and LT.


Having just watched youtube videos of both, I think I can safely say that the biggest difference is that LT actually looks a lot BETTER than E:D at this stage.

(in reply to JoshParnell)
Post #: 63
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 8:50:41 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Never has a truer word been spoken, seems to me that Kayoz is simply arguing for the sake of argument. But sadly his entire argument seems to consist of "you cant do it cause its too hard" without offering a shred of evidence why not.


I had my friend's 3-year old ask me why she couldn't fly, as she stood there flapping her arms. I wasn't about to try to explain aerodynamics to her. I think debating design/coding decisions would be similarly fruitful.

As for my argument, you're wrong - the core of my argument isn't "it's too difficult" - so much as "if it were so easy, someone else would have done it by now". His youth, lack of advanced education and absence of experience puts the difficulty bar pretty low. And somehow nobody has found this bar, or if they have - been able to leap over it.

"It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out." ~~ Carl Sagan

Says it all, doesn't it?

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 64
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 9:02:06 AM   
Lucian

 

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Joined: 12/1/2012
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quote:

I had my friend's 3-year old ask me why she couldn't fly, as she stood there flapping her arms. I wasn't about to try to explain aerodynamics to her.


Lol! You probably told her that flying was an immensely complicated task and that she was too young and experienced to ever even attempt it, dashing the poor kid's hopes of ever becoming a pilot.

Good work! Lets hope you don't manage to crush anybody else's dreams with your skepticism.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 65
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 9:33:35 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Good work! Lets hope you don't manage to crush anybody else's dreams with your skepticism.


Dream in your own home, in your own privacy. I don't have a problem with that.

Don't come asking for money when you have a dream and not expect people to ask pointed questions.
Don't lay claim to earth-shattering new technology and not expect people to ask "how is it none of the legions of programmers saw this?"
Don't complain when your forum spam isn't greeted with flowers and cheers - but questions and dubiety.

See Carl Sagan's quote above. Or how about...

"You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe." ~~ Carl Sagan

You seem to want to believe in Josh's claims. There's nothing I can do to dissuade you from that.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 66
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 10:22:41 AM   
JoshParnell

 

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Joined: 11/30/2012
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Kayoz,

I will not waste any more time discussing matters with someone who clearly does not have any desire for a serious conversation, nor any desire to confess to a lack of practical experience. To someone who knows the field intimately, it's more than obvious that you're arguing from naught!

I have coding to get back to ;)

PS ~ Hope you try implementing high-level AI someday. Maybe you'll surprise yourself.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 67
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 10:24:45 AM   
JoshParnell

 

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Joined: 11/30/2012
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quote:

Don't lay claim to earth-shattering new technology and not expect people to ask "how is it none of the legions of programmers saw this?"


BTW - This is just an obtuse statement. I showed that technology. I showed the procedural generation of everything, including ships. So really, I'm not sure why you're trying to argue that point. That part has already been proven.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 68
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 10:40:30 AM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 12/1/2012
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quote:

Don't come asking for money when you have a dream and not expect people to ask pointed questions.


Let me get this straight. You ask your pointed questions, and you do so in an unnecessarily rude, aggressive and confrontational manner. Then he answers your questions, trying to be as polite as possible.

quote:

I understand the "how to fly" might seem like a difficult problem if you haven't implemented it. The truth, however, is that it's fantastically simple. The underlying methodology is that, at all times, you have several AI "substrategies" that get to submit votes on a heading. The votes are aggregated as a weighted average,......etc


And your response is....

quote:

White noise. Clouds of fog.


In addition, he has already demonstrated several aspects of how his procedural generation is working (on youtube) after only a couple of months of development. You have asked for evidence and he has given it to you.

What the hell does Josh have to do to convince you, dump a full working copy of the game in your lap? Would even that do the trick? Somehow I doubt it. Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing.

quote:

I will not waste any more time discussing matters with someone who clearly does not have any desire for a serious conversation, nor any desire to confess to a lack of practical experience. To someone who knows the field intimately, it's more than obvious that you're arguing from naught!


I think that's a good move, you're clearly just wasting your time with this guy. It does speak volumes that you took the time to answer his belligerent posts though, and in a very calm and mature manner.

< Message edited by Lucian -- 12/2/2012 10:42:04 AM >

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 69
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 11:27:38 AM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian

And your response is....

quote:

White noise. Clouds of fog.


In addition, he has already demonstrated several aspects of how his procedural generation is working (on youtube) after only a couple of months of development. You have asked for evidence and he has given it to you.


Maybe you're easily impressed. A youtube video doesn't do much for me. Too easy to fake, too easy to edit. Too easy to do a hundred takes for the one that doesn't crash or look like rubbish. If you believe all the promo videos you see, then your life savings should be empty at the end of any E3 conference. But it doesn't take much thinking to come up with a dozen projects who had impressive videos at E3 but never fulfilled their promises.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
What the hell does Josh have to do to convince you, dump a full working copy of the game in your lap? Would even that do the trick? Somehow I doubt it. Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing.


He has to answer that question, not me. He has nearly $90k on the line and might lose it if Kickstarter questions the veracity of his claims - not me.

He claims to have discovered a method of making a game for 4% the cost of established developers. That counts, in my mind, as a pretty extraordinary claim.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." ~~ Carl Sagan

I see no extraordinary proof. I see no John Carmack here. I see another Jon Romero. Daikatana, anyone?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
I think that's a good move, you're clearly just wasting your time with this guy. It does speak volumes that you took the time to answer his belligerent posts though, and in a very calm and mature manner.


Skepticism isn't a concept that you're familiar with, is it?

Convenient how you showed up on Matrix forums to defend him when he needs it, isn't it?

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 70
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 11:44:18 AM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 12/1/2012
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quote:

Convenient how you showed up on Matrix forums to defend him when he needs it, isn't it?


Ha ha, I was expecting something like that. It isn't possible that someone ELSE might disagree with you is it?

Actually your needlessly aggressive personal attack on Josh (which by the way is something that Carl Sagan would never do in a billion, billion years) is getting quite a lot of coverage on several other forums. And they posted links to this one.

I just came over to see what all the fuss was about. Of course I wouldn't expect you to believe that, its all a big conspiracy Kayoz! Who could possibly disagree with your criticism except the designer of the game? lol please save me from trolls!

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 71
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 12:12:57 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
...is something that Carl Sagan would never do in a billion, billion years)


I think it's quite reasonable to assume he'd want proof of the 2500% efficiency increase he proposes. But to be reasonable - given billions and billions of years, all the atoms in your body randomly deciding to leap 6 feet to the left at the same time, is not unreasonable. You have plenty of time for the most unlikely events to occur. Your statement only shows your ignorance on the subject you claim authority.

Despite his ground-breaking claims, the game development sites have largely ignored Josh. Hrmm... coincidence? They should be abuzz with excitement with such a huge leap in development efficiency. What's that I see on dev forums? Silence.

Post your support on a game development site and see how they react. Go on. You won't accept my comments as coming from authority - go to those who are the black-hats in the game dev field. See how the claims are greeted - when proposed in front of game development pros, not credulous consumers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Of course I wouldn't expect you to believe that, its all a big conspiracy Kayoz!


I didn't suggest it was a conspiracy. I only pointed out how convenient it is. I didn't say it was a conspiracy - you did. Running off in tears for the support of one's friends isn't the first time. It happened just the other day, in fact.

We'll see. If he pulls it off, you and your credulous friends can have a laugh at silly me. I do hope you'll drop by again if the reverse is true.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 12/2/2012 12:29:46 PM >


_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 72
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 12:41:09 PM   
Lucian

 

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Joined: 12/1/2012
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quote:

I think it's quite reasonable to assume he'd want proof


Oh I'm sure of it too. But what I'm referring to - as I'm sure you very well know - it that Dr Sagan would NEVER be rude, aggressive or insulting in order to make his point. And I honestly think that you would generate a lot more sympathy for you argument (at least from me) if you had made it in a less confrontational and belligerent manner.

You come across very clearly as someone with an axe to grind and serious inadequacy problems, I'm just saying how I perceive it, and if you check some other forums, you'll see that I'm not the only one to notice.

quote:

to defend him when he needs it,


Actually Kayoz, it seems blindingly obvious that in this thread at least, it isn't Josh who needs defending, its you who are on the ropes. Frankly I think he kicked your butt in this "debate", he threw so much evidence at you that you just didnt know what to do. That "white noise, clouds of fog" response of yours was just incredibly lame, I had to read it twice to believe it. Just my opinion of course.

quote:

We'll see. If he pulls it off, you and your credulous friends can have a laugh at silly me. I do hope you'll drop by again if the reverse is true.


Agreed, if the reverse is true, you will truly deserve your chance to gloat and I will drop by to take my medicine. Honestly though, I think you're being too paranoid.

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 73
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 12:59:45 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Actually Kayoz, it seems blindingly obvious that in this thread at least, it isn't Josh who needs defending, its you who are on the ropes. Frankly I think he kicked your butt in this "debate", he threw so much evidence at you that you just didnt know what to do. That "white noise, clouds of fog" response of yours was just incredibly lame, I had to read it twice to believe it. Just my opinion of course.


Interesting. I don't feel on the ropes. I feel like you're avoiding my central questions, and trying to nit-pick over details which I consider distractions.

1. Revolutionary? If Josh's method is so revolutionary, why is it that nobody else is doing it? Or, why are the established studios which have some of the most talented coders around - are only using it in very limited ways (grass, trees, background) and nowhere near the extent that Josh proposes? They've used the method but somehow missed it's potential? How is his technique that gives approximately 2500% efficiency increase - being overlooked by the professional game development community?
2. Complex? Building a game from the ground up is a horribly complex task to be taking on alone - much less by someone who's never done it before. Being able to give abstract explanations about how things are done isn't of any real value. If it were, then Rational wouldn't have much of a market for their products.
3. Experience? Enthusiasm isn't any substitute for experience. Any number of game dev blogs will show you this - time wasted on dead-end concepts, feature creep that turns one's design to overcooked spaghetti, and on and on. Somehow Josh's lack of experience - even on a modest professional scale - isn't troubling to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Honestly though, I think you're being too paranoid.


Paranoid? In this respect, I have none. Nope, no feeling of paranoia. I'm more concerned with being struck by lightning than with your return to gloat. After all, your gloating return would require that the game not be a dismal failure. I'm happy with my chances.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 74
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 1:16:04 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
FYI -

http://www.gamedev.net/blog/786/entry-2254793-procedural-content-generation-a-practical-approach/

Summary:
Procedurally generated content is boring, meaningless. Great for forests, but terrible for human structures - cities and buildings.

Yet somehow Josh has blown past these problems. Interesting. He knows more than the pros.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 12/2/2012 1:44:22 PM >


_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 75
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 2:06:53 PM   
jsd22

 

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Kayoz, when I first saw a reference to a student's Kickstarter for funds to write this "amazing" game I was more than sceptical.
As you said, "20 year old kid with no experience, no track record, nothing more than an inflated ego and immense hubris".
And he's asking for money for this dream.

But I read through his pitch, his blog, comments, and answers to questions, and he seems to have ability and understanding
as well as enthusiasm.

Your comments that "He's a punk with no experience and no training" and "He'd get laughed out of an entry level game programming job"
are as absurd as they are insulting.


Do I think that he'll run into unexpected problems, underestimated timescales and missed deadlines, stubborn bugs,
features that don't work as well as planned, etc? Of course, most software projects do.

Is he over optimistic? Probably.

Will his game be as polished or as deep as some professionally produced titles? No.

But I like his ideas, and on the basis of his discussion and examples, I expect something interesting and worth the $15 I committed.
I want to see his game ideas and his procedural universe. Will his design be clever enough to produce sufficient variety and interest?
Perhaps or perhaps not, but he wants to try and the risk to me is small.

Kayoz: "Maybe he really can do it. Maybe the Easter Bunny is real".

Don't dismiss the ability of someone with a vision and determination to succeed with a software project
if they have the basic ability and work hard.

I've made solo software projects myself. I know it can be done.


Really your unrelenting negativity is puzzling.
Certainly, with your greater experience you can warn about possible difficulties, or you can give advice if you have advice to offer,
but your determination to prove that he cannot possibly succeed is unhelpful and trollish.


(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 76
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 2:39:42 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jsd22
Your comments that "He's a punk with no experience and no training" and "He'd get laughed out of an entry level game programming job"
are as absurd as they are insulting.


Game dev jobs attract the cream of the crop. It's a secret dream harboured by nearly all programmers. Josh - having no experience whatsoever, no completed education - he wouldn't make it very far at all in the selection process. They ask for more than enthusiasm, unfortunately. Perhaps I exaggerate - not laugh. Ignored. Not even considered. You happier with that?

That you don't seem to be aware of this is enlightening.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jsd22
Perhaps or perhaps not, but he wants to try and the risk to me is small.


Sure, knock yourself out. You seem happy with the decision you've already made - why are you here on Matrix forums?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jsd22
Don't dismiss the ability of someone with a vision and determination to succeed with a software project
if they have the basic ability and work hard.


And he'll succeed or fail regardless of my opinion. Why does my opinion bother you so much?

As to your claim that basic ability and hard work can succeed - I do contend that making a ground-breaking game of epic scope - requires more than "basic" ability. If that were all that's needed, we'd be inundated with solo game projects. Oddly enough... we aren't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jsd22
...your determination to prove that he cannot possibly succeed is unhelpful and trollish.


I'm not "proving" anything, despite your fatuous claim. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. I can't "prove" his project will succeed any more than your positive outlook can "prove" it's success. What is it you're trying to say?

I do take offense at your implication that I said he cannot succeed. I never said that, and you would do well to stop trying to fabricate statements. I quite explicitly said that there is a possibility he will succeed.

< Message edited by Kayoz -- 12/2/2012 2:43:02 PM >


_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to jsd22)
Post #: 77
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 3:05:53 PM   
vonRocko

 

Posts: 1196
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell


I will not waste any more time discussing matters with someone who clearly does not have any desire for a serious conversation, nor any desire to confess to a lack of practical experience.


Very wise. He is just a negative person, there is no need to waste more time on him.
Good luck kid!

(in reply to JoshParnell)
Post #: 78
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 3:15:08 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko
Very wise. He is just a negative person, there is no need to waste more time on him.
Good luck kid!


Precious, coming from someone who makes baseless racist accusations. Shoo, vonRocko - your venomous lies and senseless stalking of me isn't accomplishing anything.

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 79
RE: Limit Theory - 12/2/2012 10:10:50 PM   
Mad Igor

 

Posts: 243
Joined: 6/18/2012
Status: offline
i was sure,that i pressed "New Thread" not "Red Button,Stalin strongly recommend not 2 push it"

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 80
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 1:07:06 PM   
csebal

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline
I share the concerns of Kayoz and while I do not necessarily agree with his aggressive approach in voicing them, I find it even less appealing the kind of defense Josh tries to put up against that.

I prefer not to criticize kickstarters too much as I believe that everyone should have a shot at their dreams, but you just come over as way too arrogant for someone of your position.

Let me be blunt here, Josh: what you are proposing is ambitious even for a team of seasoned veterans. That you propose to do it alone is .. well.. the kind of thing I would expect from someone with no experience and the kind of thing that makes me not invest a penny in your project. You have a dream, have a few ideas on how to get there and think that it will be smooth sailing because there is nothing you can see that could prove overly difficult or challenging.

Here is how I envision your project sprung to life:
1) Hey.. I love coding.. I'm studying graphics, making a 3D engine seems like a good way to pass the time, plus those are so cool.
2) Hmm.. this engine really works well, all those nice nebulae and planets and models flying around, why not just make a game.. after all, now that I've got the hard part of it nailed down, how hard could it be?
3) That's it, I love elite, I love the X series.. but they all have flaws.. I can do better, I will make the ultimate game that combines the best of both.
4) Kickstarter projects are so popular now, let's fire one up and gather some money for it.

Now the order of things might not be exactly like I envisioned, but I'm 99% certain that it is just what happened. It happened to me as well a good decade ago, except that we did not have kickstarter back then and I eventually got bored of my project and moved on to other things.

Here is the thing, many of the tasks ahead of you seem easy, but you will realize they are extremely complex as they have many links to other systems of the game that you do not yet recognize. The big difference between a newbie and a veteran is not that the veteran can foresee these links and complexities, because even with all my years of experience I cannot foresee all the potential problems in the systems I'm designing, but I can recognize some off them off the bat simply due to me having experienced them previously, and I will certainly do expect the rest of them to occur. Game design (or any other software architecture design) is much like a Mandelbrot set. You start out with a basic image of the idea of what you want and the deeper you go in specifying the details, the more complex it gets. Problems will not be readily apparent until you refined the image enough for the details to show and only then will the real "fun" start.. that is trying to make things work.. conflicting goals be met at the same time, etc.

So when you talk about parts of your game being trivial or easy, the alarms go off in my head for a reason.

Even more so, when you say that you do not want to involve others in designing or developing your game, as you think that it reduces overall efficiency. If you really think that, then you either have no "professional experience" or it must have been a really bad one. Here are just a few things why you NEVER want to work alone on anything:

- Focus: if you think you can manage the entire project now, how about when it will have all added complexities of game logic, AI, sound, graphics, input handling and the like, each probably more complex in itself than what you have until now. Even assuming you can manage it all yourself, just the act of keeping everything together will require a good portion of your mental capacity, which could otherwise be put to more constructive use.

- Assistance: Maybe you have already had one of those long sleepless night, when you struggle with a problem that you have struggled with for days only to have a passing colleague or friend point at your code and say.. hey, that one there is wrong. Solving days of bug hunting just so.. with a few words. If you have not yet had those, well.. do not worry, you will. The reason for that is simple. We tend to get set in our ways and when you work on something for days, weeks or months at a time, you start to work partially from memory, not seeing entirely of what is in front of you, but supplementing bits of it with information from memory. A fresh, unbiased set of eyes often can find problems that you alone would not find for days.

- Skills: Different people are good at different things. Sure, a good developer can learn almost anything given enough time and resources to learn from, but it takes time.. time in which someone already skilled in that area could probably have solved the problem. Not to mention the difference between being able to do something and being good at something. You want people work on things they are good at.

- Maintainability: When you are forced to work with others, you will generally have a much cleaner code that is a lot easier to maintain..

I could probably go on, but it would be pointless really. You might have talent, you might have dedication, but you clearly do not have the right attitude. Good luck with your project. Even though I just do not see how you will succeed with it, if you stick to your current way of thinking or mentality.

< Message edited by csebal -- 12/3/2012 1:12:08 PM >

(in reply to Mad Igor)
Post #: 81
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 1:09:53 PM   
csebal

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline
double post. weird forum stuff or misclick.

< Message edited by csebal -- 12/3/2012 1:10:18 PM >

(in reply to csebal)
Post #: 82
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 1:47:50 PM   
Saint Ruth

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 12/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

... Better programmers than you have tried to write their own games in their spare time, and burned out or gave up. Generally, ya it looks easy peasy to code...

And some succeed!

Good luck to you, Josh!

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 83
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 3:35:21 PM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
Hey Kayoz, just wanted to say that I checked out Forsaken Fortress and I think its frickin awesome! Thanks for the heads up a couple of pages ago.

I sure hope they make their, goal its not looking too good for them at the moment unfortunately. Anyway, I pledged to that one too, honestly I'm blowing way too much money on these things nowadays but this is another one I really don't want to see fail.

(in reply to Saint Ruth)
Post #: 84
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 4:47:03 PM   
parusski


Posts: 4690
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: Wyoming, Even Liberals Welcome
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko


quote:

ORIGINAL: JoshParnell


I will not waste any more time discussing matters with someone who clearly does not have any desire for a serious conversation, nor any desire to confess to a lack of practical experience.


Very wise. He is just a negative person, there is no need to waste more time on him.
Good luck kid!


But vonRocko, he is attracting new members to our forum. It's just a coincidence that they joined within a day or so of him.

_____________________________

"I hate newspapermen. They come into camp and pick up their camp rumors and print them as facts. I regard them as spies, which, in truth, they are. If I killed them all there would be news from Hell before breakfast."- W.T. Sherman

(in reply to vonRocko)
Post #: 85
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 4:59:33 PM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
Actually there's no coincidence at all. Kayoz has become quite infamous on several other forums for the insulting and hostile way that he has interrogated this developer.

Not necessarily for the content of his argument, but for the aggressive way that he presented it.

Links were posted complaining about this "horrible person" and I came by to check it out. Simple really.

By the way I love Matrix, Distant worlds Legends is one of my favorite games, I really should have joined this forum ages ago.

(in reply to parusski)
Post #: 86
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 6:26:45 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Kayoz has become quite infamous on several other forums


Sorry to burst your conspiracy theory bubble, but that can't possibly be me. Perhaps someone's using my handle.

Matrix is the only forum I've addressed this subject. Only. Singular. Got it?

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 87
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 6:31:17 PM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
Dont sound so guilty!!

The other forums were talking about your behavior ON the matrix forums, that's why they posted links to Matrix, not elsewhere. And that was what I was referring to.
But you knew that right?

Or did you....??

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 88
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 6:35:49 PM   
Kayoz


Posts: 1413
Joined: 12/20/2010
From: Timbuktu
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucian
Or did you....??


Nope. Not me. I don't know how I can dumb down "no" any more so you can understand it.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this line of questioning. Why would I cross-post links to Matrix?

_____________________________

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” ― Christopher Hitchens

(in reply to Lucian)
Post #: 89
RE: Limit Theory - 12/3/2012 6:44:40 PM   
Lucian

 

Posts: 201
Joined: 12/1/2012
Status: offline
sigh..... Ok one more time. I was in ANOTHER forum, not this one but elsewhere on the net. They were talking about YOUR obnoxious behavior in THIS forum, the one were chatting in now.
Someone who was not one of your many fans posted a link to THIS forum and I came here to see how bad you can really be.

I really, really hope you can understand the chain of events this time round. It isn't that hard.

< Message edited by Lucian -- 12/3/2012 6:45:40 PM >

(in reply to Kayoz)
Post #: 90
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