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Soviet 152mm Howitzer

 
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Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/23/2012 7:23:07 PM   
morvael


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What's wrong with this item? It has a start date 1938-1 and no end date and upgrades in 1943-11 to new model, yet it is shown on the production screen as obsolete and is not produced. Because of that no Howitzer Regiment SU gets their guns, and I'm stuck with a lot of useless regiments (I wanted to give each army 2xArt Regt and 1xHow Regt).
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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/23/2012 9:12:24 PM   
morvael


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The commander's report, equipment tab shows an end date though. Why this gap? It's always possible to build the Howitzers Regiments but they don't get guns...

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/24/2012 1:40:43 AM   
Helpless


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152mm M-10 follows historical production dates. Howitzer Regiments should switch to 122mm M-30.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/24/2012 8:33:40 AM   
morvael


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Too bad, they don't - 20 regiments are happy to stay at 1-3 howitzers each for months.

Anyway, what was misleading is that when an item is upgrading to another, the end date is not visible in production details screen. One understands that it is the usual case of one model replacing the other immediately. It would be better to show the end date if it is not immediately followed by upgraded item's start date.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/24/2012 8:57:30 AM   
Helpless


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You could be on low on ARM points. Also you need to pass extra rolls for them to be built.

Howitzers (and heavy artillery in general) were of huge deficit in Red Army in initial period of war.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/24/2012 7:49:12 PM   
morvael


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There seems to be no problem with Army Artillery Regiments and Artillery Regiments RVGK, they fill after 2-3 turns, while howitzer regiments are almost empty for 10+ turns. I have also checked the "produced" number, it stays on 1506, so they are certainly not produced. My bad, I was mistaken by the hidden end date, though in general I think the replacement procedures are a bit lazy or too cautious - 560+ 85mm AA guns sit in the pool, while 2/3 of units stick to older 76mm having no replacements and low TOE%.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/25/2012 6:51:08 AM   
Denniss

 

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These 152mm guns stop producing after 7/41 due to end date but it's indeed strange they are not replaced by available guns of a similar class.
I can confirm the issue with 76mm AA guns not really upgrading to 85mm AA guns - I've seen this in multiple testgames. All those soviet AA units set up with 76mm AA guns have no newer OB with 85mm AA guns, this could/should speed up gun replacement. The 76mm guns itself have an upgrade path to the 85mm gun but the upgrade function does rarely kick in to replace them (usually only if you build new units).

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/25/2012 6:58:18 AM   
morvael


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The rifle divisions are chock full of 122mm howitzers, but the howitzer regiments do not accept them. I will wait one more turn, the hwz regiments have a TOE update, maybe this will unlock the replacement possibility. If not I will start to disband them.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/25/2012 8:35:42 AM   
morvael


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Maybe it would be a good idea to introduce a TOE update for those regiments, that would explicitly state that 122mm were to be used?

At start: 36x152
1941-08: 36x122 (when the old 152 is no longer produced)
1943-01: 36x152 (when the new 152 is available)

Maybe this would help the replacement procedures? Though this kind of puts them to shame, if they are unable to determine replacement equipment of the same class on their own.

edit: another example - 305 45mm AT guns in the pool, yet some AT regiments stick to captured weapons, in worst case it is a single captured Rumanian gun. And this lasts for two months in an army situated in the rear of the front, on permanent refit, 10 miles from Moscow.

< Message edited by morvael -- 11/25/2012 9:43:35 PM >

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/25/2012 10:24:02 PM   
morvael


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I think there may be a sort of a deadlock. On-demand items in production are not produced because they are deemed enough to fill current set of units with replacements, while at the same time units with items that are no longer produced are not switching to the first item, because the pool is deemed too small to fit in more units. That sort of behaviour is good for those items that have constant production (like planes or AFVs), but not for items that can be produced on demand. There should also be some kind of "bonus" to encourage switching from items that are not produced and/or captured (those with no supply possible or guaranteed) to current in-production models.

When I started to think about the algorithm needed here, it looks so interesting that I'm considering trying to write one myself for fun :)

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 3:13:04 PM   
Helpless


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Can you post/send a save? I think there could be a swapping issue for the SU. Thanks

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Post #: 11
RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 3:38:12 PM   
morvael


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My bad I used a common (for me) password there, which may not be critical, but still I use it on many sites and forums. As far as I know I can't change that mid-game... Or maybe you can open the save in other way?

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Post #: 12
RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 3:44:18 PM   
Helpless


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Sending just save would be enough. 2by3@2by3games.com

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 4:16:04 PM   
morvael


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Great. I can send you either from start or end of my turn and from every turn in range 2..47. How many and which do you want? I guess something from the end of sequence (45,46,47?).

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Post #: 14
RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 4:47:24 PM   
Helpless


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One should be enough.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 4:52:34 PM   
morvael


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Sorry, I sent my email earlier and sent 3 files. I hope that's not a problem.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 10:02:59 PM   
Helpless


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I took a look a the save and apparently there is not enough of 122mm in the pool. In fact you have all zeroes for both 122mm and 152mm after replacement phase, which takes place before swap out. There are some in transit but it can't be used.

My concerns on SU swap out didn't confirm - they do swap out ground elements.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 10:16:20 PM   
morvael


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What about the 85mm AA and 45mm AT? They do sit in the pool.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 10:26:12 PM   
morvael


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Also I don't get it how all the units with default TOE equipment currently in production fill up in no more than 2 turns. The problem always is with those units whose default TOE equipment is not produced. I think they do not generate demand for the replacement equipment, thus it is not produced, and they are content with the scraps that rotate to and from the pool from damaged elements. The unit should determine it needs another type of item, since the default one is not produced and only then generate the requirement for production.

Edit: it's the same with many items, even tanks which are not on demand. As long as there is even 1 in the pool (and there is due to rotation) units stick with T-26 and other crap, even if there are hundreds of T-34 or T-70 tanks in the pool. I'd suggest adding a bonus for equipment switch for units with obsolete equipment, even if there is something still in the pool. There seems it's not the case. Even new units build with the desire to still use the default equipment and the problem escalates.

< Message edited by morvael -- 11/26/2012 10:42:10 PM >

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 10:46:33 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

What about the 85mm AA and 45mm AT? T


I see 85mm taking over 75mm AA. There are no 45mm AT in the active pool.

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Post #: 20
RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/26/2012 10:55:58 PM   
Helpless


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quote:

As long as there is even 1 in the pool (and there is due to rotation) units stick with T-26 and other crap, even if there are hundreds of T-34 or T-70 tanks in the pool.


That's not quite true. Unit's swap items even if there are some old equipment in the pool. Ex. there are units swapping out T-60 to T-70 (323) even there are some T-60 in the active pool (~80 in the save I see).



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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/27/2012 6:53:05 AM   
Denniss

 

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There may be two different issues here, the 152mm units sticking to their TOE despite gun out of production and nothing in pool - chances are quite high it doesn't get replacements. Same with 76/85mm AA guns despite having an upgrade path. The only exception would be new-built units as they would usually swap equipment on the turn after creation.
I had observed this with OT-34 -> OT-34/85 change not happen in flame tank Bns in at least one game played from 1941 while a test with a modified 44 campaign showed those replacements to happen. Those flame tank Bns do not have an updated TOE with newer tanks, just an upgrade path from old to new tank.

It may well be as morvael suggest - these swaps do not create production demand thus you typically won't have replacements in pool during the swap phase. Althrough the flame tank example from above had hundreds of new OT-34/85 in pool.

On the other hand, units which receive a TOE upgrade usually have far less problems to swap-out equipment.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/27/2012 8:46:11 AM   
randallw

 

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For a problem with specific types like trying to swap out the T-26 for T-34, the 26 is a light tank, and shouldn't be replaced by the 34; the 50, 60, and 70 should do that.

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Post #: 23
RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/27/2012 9:08:22 AM   
morvael


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Let's do some number crunching:

Data from turns 44 to 48. No AA guns are produced at all. The 76mm is obviously out-dated, the 85mm is overflowing the magazines.

Replacement logs:

44)
85mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 28 added to the front line units || - 2 returned to the pool
76mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 29 added to the front line units || - 1 returned to the pool
45)
85mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 14 added to the front line units || - 0 returned to the pool
76mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 10 added to the front line units || - 0 returned to the pool
46)
85mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 4 added to the front line units || - 0 returned to the pool
76mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 8 added to the front line units || - 0 returned to the pool
47)
85mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 10 added to the front line units || - 0 returned to the pool
76mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 17 added to the front line units || - 1 returned to the pool
48)
85mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 2 added to the front line units || - 0 returned to the pool
76mm Anti-aircraft Gun : + 10 added to the front line units || - 2 returned to the pool

Unit makeup from turn 44:

85mm Anti-aircraft Gun (ready 571/dam 11)
8x rifle divisions on outdated TOE
1x cavalry division on outdated TOE
14x PVO AA Rgts
23x AA & PVO AA Bns

76mm Anti-aircraft Gun (ready 886/dam 18)
1x rifle division on outdated TOE
27x PVO AA Rgts
47x AA & PVO AA Bns

There should be 12 guns per AA Bn, 20 per AA Regt, 4 per rifle division on 41b TOE and 8 per cavalry division on 41a TOE.

To fill the 76mm group 47*12+27*20+4*1=564+540+4=1108 guns are needed. From the report we see that the average TOE coverage is around 81% ((886+18)/1108).
To fill the 85mm group 23*12+14*20+8*1+4*4=276+280+8+16=580 guns are needed. From the report we see that the average TOE coverage is around 100% ((571+11)/580).

Therefore we see that there is no immediate need to build any 85mm because units using those guns are 100% full, while there is not enough 76mm which can't be produced. There is also a visible surplus of 85mm in the pool which could be used for swaps, as there are no immediate needs in the units currently using 85mm guns.

Let's check how the situation changes after 5 turns:

85mm Anti-aircraft Gun (ready 609/dam 8)
1x rifle divisions on outdated TOE
14x PVO AA Rgts
28x AA & PVO AA Bns

total need: 28*12+14*20+1*4=336+280+4=620, average coverage 617/620=99.5%

76mm Anti-aircraft Gun (ready 869/dam 15)
2x rifle division on outdated TOE
25x PVO AA Rgts
45x AA & PVO AA Bns

total need: 45*12+25*20+2*4=540+500+8=1048, average coverage 884/1048=84.3%

In one case we even see that one rifle division happily demoted from 85mm to 76mm (as this was what is originally prescribed by TOE) rather than stick to new guns. The PVO regts are not updates either, they were destroyed (and that brought the average coverage up). It looks like during 5 weeks an amazing number of 2 AA Bns has actually really swapped guns and 3 new AA Bns started using 85mm guns from the start (while 1 division swapped back).

Surely the Soviets may have been a little incompetent, but such gross incompetence?




edit: in worst cases for the 76mm units sit on 2 or 3 out of 12 guns (<=25%), rather than swap. For the 85mm the worst one is 9 out of 12 (75%).

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by morvael -- 11/27/2012 9:12:01 AM >

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/27/2012 9:18:47 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: randallw

For a problem with specific types like trying to swap out the T-26 for T-34, the 26 is a light tank, and shouldn't be replaced by the 34; the 50, 60, and 70 should do that.


Yeah, I was giving the numbers from memory and mistaken the 26 for 28.

I have 9 units using 200 T-26, while there is 113 T-60, 365 T-70 and 252 M3 Stuart in the pool.
I have 3 units using 64 T-28, while there is 552 T-34, 304 Valentine III, 227 Matilda II and 220 M3 Lee in the pool.

Why won't they upgrade? It seems the only way to upgrade is first to get those units massacred and the old equipment finally and totally gone, only they it would be replaced with new one.

edit: also, I have 3 units using 28 KV-2 M1940, while there is 179 KV-1 M1941 in the pool.

< Message edited by morvael -- 11/27/2012 9:21:14 AM >

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/27/2012 9:22:16 AM   
Helpless


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Game doesn't calculate total needs during replacement. The only thing matters is current unit demand and situation in the pool, which may vary a lot from what you see at the end of your supply phase.

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Post #: 26
RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/27/2012 9:26:24 AM   
Helpless


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quote:


Why won't they upgrade?


From what I see these units are full on TOE or either don't set on refit.

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Post #: 27
RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/27/2012 9:26:40 AM   
morvael


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Replacement aside, how are the swaps determined? Let's even skip the issue with swap needed to generate "production need" before it can be fullfilled, what about swap based on number of elements in unit and in the pool, if there is a ton of new equipment waiting there. Something's wrong with that.

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RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/27/2012 9:27:57 AM   
morvael


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Helpless

quote:


Why won't they upgrade?


From what I see these units are full on TOE or either don't set on refit.


SUs like AA Bns and Rgts are considered on permanent refit, there is no option to switch it manually. And 2/12 is not full either.

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Post #: 29
RE: Soviet 152mm Howitzer - 11/27/2012 9:33:48 AM   
morvael


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141st AA Bn strength on consecutive turns:
4, 5, 5, 6, 6

They rather get "replacements" from units moving to new toe and from the repaired guns "spilling" from the units still close to 100% TOE so it's a constantly rotating cycle with some units moving down the TOE% ladder and some moving up.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 30
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