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VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog

 
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VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/23/2012 9:59:23 AM   
VadeS

 

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Hi everyone !

I play CC from the very beginning, since CC I a bridge to far. Who would though years ago that CC with it's 2D graphic could survive on the market for so long ? It was possible because CC is a unique system simulating squad level - no other games can match it.

First of all PitF is a very dynamic game. Now you can't just send your troops whenever you want, if enemy spots you first you have little chance to survive. Infantry fire is more accurate and losing your team in gun fire could last couple of seconds, not mentioning being spotted in open ground.

In previous versions I could easily send my squad to the certain death i.e. assaulting moderately defended building, now troops will propably surrender or route - so forget about kamikaze or weak attack.

HQ units are finally are fully useful - now broken unit is completly unuseful and without HQ it won't regain it's readiness.

Ground AT/AP artilery is usefull longer than couple of seconds after being spotted and fired on by enemy mortar, so now you can enjoy firing your 88.

AI - what AI ? I lost hope that developing AI in CC is possible. For example in scenarios where AI is an attacking side and has an overwhelming forces it just waits for you on a small area + makes some random movements.

Mount function is a great idea but in practice it is not that useful. Example - PZgenadiere in Kubelwagen could flank enemy but instead vehicle can't move efficiently even on a straight road, so surprise effect is lost.

Mortar fire is more deadlier than previously but it takes time and shells to aim target propertly. Mortar team has about 20 shells, about 4 are needed to aim target so in one game you could fire effectively max 3 targets.

Tanks are still very powerfull but as I mentioned before they can't move even on a straight road - if you plan to support infantry with tanks I bet that you will spend most of time on moving vehicles rather than focusing on infantry attack.


So is it worth buing ? definetly yes !

Hasn't this game out lived it's time? definetly no ! good tactical level simulation will newer get bored for enthusiasts even in 2D graphic.


But please MATRIX GAMES do something with vehicle movement, this part of game is unlogic and just stupid.
Post #: 1
RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/23/2012 3:31:30 PM   
wodin


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If the AI is as bad as you say I'm not sure how you can recommend it.

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/23/2012 4:31:16 PM   
PipFromSlitherine

 

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And yet there is a post in Tech Support complaining that the AI isn't cautious enough. So I'm not sure it's so clear cut.

Cheers

Pip

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/23/2012 7:58:11 PM   
redmarkus4


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Very confusing review. Why would I go ahead and buy, as recommended, after reading your comments about both the AI and vehicle movement?

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/23/2012 8:08:22 PM   
VadeS

 

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I should write it in my review - AI and vehicle movement is almost the same as in CC V , I just hoped that PitF will finally fix it !.
Despite this PitH is still very interesting game, especially infantry tactics.


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Post #: 5
RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 3:47:36 AM   
SapperAstro

 

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Fix what exactly?

While the AI in the other CC's can be braindead, it can also pull off something surprisingly good in equal measure. In other words...it is a computer AI in a wargame...

So what is so terrible about this one?


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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 8:58:15 AM   
xe5

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VadeS
First of all PitF is a very dynamic game. Now you can't just send your troops whenever you want, if enemy spots you first you have little chance to survive. Infantry fire is more accurate and losing your team in gun fire could last couple of seconds, not mentioning being spotted in open ground.

IMO this makes the biggest difference in solo play balance - the player optimally re-deploys his force and therefor doesnt have to move as much, get spotted and die. The AI doesnt re-deploy, does have to move, gets spotted and dies. No player re-deploy = fairer fight.

quote:

In previous versions I could easily send my squad to the certain death i.e. assaulting moderately defended building, now troops will propably surrender or route - so forget about kamikaze or weak attack.

HQ units are finally are fully useful - now broken unit is completly unuseful and without HQ it won't regain it's readiness.

Beat up and weak teams will readily surrender when out of command. Barring a nearby command team, high leadership subordinate teams can stiffen weak teams. A good example in PITF is US rifle squads where sqd leaders in the rifle teams lend command influence to the BAR teams. Set the Team Info Icon option to 'Command' and use the Space Bar to see the proximity (ie. overlapping command circles) of higher leadership Rifle teams (red command circles) improve the command rating of lower leadership BAR teams (black command circles).



quote:

Mortar fire is more deadlier than previously but it takes time and shells to aim target propertly. Mortar team has about 20 shells, about 4 are needed to aim target so in one game you could fire effectively max 3 targets.

Fully supplied Mortar teams have 30 rounds and shoot 6 round fire missions. They require 2 spotting rounds to zero in on a new target. The first spotting round takes ~21 seconds to aim and will miss by a wide margin (occasionally causing friendly casualties). The second spotting round takes ~12 seconds to aim and will impact much closer to the target (occasionally causing enemy casualties). The remaining 4 rounds of the fire mission dont require any aiming time and are rapidly fired for effect on the target with some small CEP variation. If a mortar can see its own target the aim time is significantly shorter. The downside to this being that the target can also see the mortar team. There is no accuracy benefit if friendly units can spot the target, or if the firing range is shortened as in previous CC versions.

An orange Target Marker appears on the tactical and mini-maps after the second spotting round when the mortar team is selected. Target Markers are centered on the 8x8 meter map 'tile' that the fire dot is placed in, not on the exact 5x5 centimeter map pixel the fire dot is centered on (Map scale is now 8 pixels = 1 meter). Target Markers for the last 3 fire missions are saved and displayed when the mortar unit is selected. New fire missions at existing Target Markers (or within those map tiles) require no aim time. Oddly, the CEP of fire missions at existing Target Markers seems to be slightly greater than the first 4 rounds of fire for effect.

Its very useful to create a group for mortars (select->CTRL+number) so you can select them quickly in the heat of battle using that hotkey. Dont know why Target Markers arent displayed on the zoomed out Overview map but it would be helpful if they were.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by xe5 -- 11/24/2012 9:01:22 AM >

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 9:47:16 AM   
Tejszd

 

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The mortar changes make the process and time for troops to get support more realistic.

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 9:51:33 AM   
PDiFolco

 

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Mortars still have "magical spotting" - I mean you can aim somewhere that no officer/spotter has any LOS too ?
This has broken all CC games since the start - which incidentally wasn't "a bridge too far", that's CC2, but just "Close combat" and was in Normandy.

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 10:42:11 AM   
xe5

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
Mortars still have "magical spotting" - I mean you can aim somewhere that no officer/spotter has any LOS too ?
This has broken all CC games since the start - which incidentally wasn't "a bridge too far", that's CC2, but just "Close combat" and was in Normandy.

An 11Charlie can fire towards random map coordinates w/o a spotter or LOS. Mortars in CC tend to be more efficient when firing at known targets which are, by definition, visible to at least one friendly unit.

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 12:12:55 PM   
VadeS

 

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Maybe mortars should work like in Squad Leader ?

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 2:11:22 PM   
xe5

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VadeS
Maybe mortars should work like in Squad Leader ?

CC is a notorious cheat when rolling dice.

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 10:08:20 PM   
PDiFolco

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xe5

quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
Mortars still have "magical spotting" - I mean you can aim somewhere that no officer/spotter has any LOS too ?
This has broken all CC games since the start - which incidentally wasn't "a bridge too far", that's CC2, but just "Close combat" and was in Normandy.

An 11Charlie can fire towards random map coordinates w/o a spotter or LOS. Mortars in CC tend to be more efficient when firing at known targets which are, by definition, visible to at least one friendly unit.


How can some mortar team fire at "random coordinates" that just happens to be populated by enemies - that are seen by another team which can't communicate with the mortar ?
Seriously, CC needs arty spotting rules..

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RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 10:48:12 PM   
Tejszd

 

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It is bit of a whole in CC as we do not know if a team can or can't communicate with the mortar team. Having said that all teams can be given orders so there must be some form of communication happening....

< Message edited by Tejszd -- 11/25/2012 12:33:30 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: VadeS fast review of Panthers in the Fog - 11/24/2012 11:45:33 PM   
xe5

 

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You asked how mortars can aim somewhere that no friendly has LOS to. IRL it can be done by pre-registration on target, by adjustment from pre-registered targets, by adjustment from explosion plumes, by adjustment from spotting rounds that are within LOS, or, in extremis, simply by good old-fashioned Kentucky windage. The H&I missions 11Chucks fired in Nam are a prime example of hoping the target "just happens to be populated by enemies".

Since mortars in CC are invariaby fired at spotted targets, your "magical spotting" issue involves the assumption that the spotting unit cant communicate with the mortar. I'd argue that it can communicate (radio/relayed mssgs/runner/carrier pigeon/jungle drums etc) but the game design abstracts and time compresses the call for fire process. The last USMC training version of CC simulated the complete call for fire process where an instructor played both FDC & battery and one Marine acted as FO. The other nine Marines got to play team and squad leaders. If you want an accurate simulation of indirect fire youre gonna spend an hour playing 'FO in the Mist' futzing with a game UI representation of an SCR-300 radio. Otherwise the 'magical spotting' issue devolves to what degree of abstraction is appropriate.

The omniscient FO aspect is insignificant considering CC is a game with magical C3 where you the CO, communicate with, and share your subordinates situational awareness instantly.

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