Matrix Games Forums

War in the West gets its first update!Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm version 2.08 is now available!Command gets huge update!Order of Battle: Pacific Featured on Weekly Streaming SessionA new fight for Battle Academy!Buzz Aldrin's Space Program Manager is out for Mac!The definitive wargame of the Western Front is out now! War in the West gets teaser trailer and Twitch Stream!New Preview AAR for War in the West!War in the West Manual preview
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Random maps

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Command Ops Series >> Random maps Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Random maps - 11/21/2012 8:04:33 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 430
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline
Is it possible for the future a random map generator?

Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Random maps - 11/21/2012 9:13:08 PM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17794
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Jafele,

Thanks for your suggestion. This won't be an easy undertaking but it is an interesting one.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 2
RE: Random maps - 11/21/2012 11:44:06 PM   
wodin


Posts: 8102
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Hmmm...not sure I'd be interested or would want your time spent on something that is creating fantasy scenarios. Also the only way I could see it working is geomap boards..but even then your only getting a certain number of permutations.

I would put it too the wider community first. I imagine we will get more user created scenarios when the East front game comes out anyway.
PS I'd also imagine it being next to impossible for the game to create obj's on those generated maps aswell and make the scenario in anyway balanced.

_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 3
RE: Random maps - 12/1/2012 3:53:41 PM   
rfrizz


Posts: 89
Joined: 4/7/2011
Status: offline
This is an interesting idea. It would be REALLY cool for a small-unit (company and smaller) game because it would be pretty close to what happens when a small company moves into an area (particularly for war before GPS). A commander doesn't know what is in or beyond that stand of trees, or what is over the crest of that rolling hill. Better send a patrol to see... Even though this would involve a 100% fantasy/hypothetical scenario,

This isn't an original idea, but I think an interesting and realistic feature would be to display the map as blank except for the places that have been seen. If you send an observer up a tower, there would be more area visible.

Panther Games does business with the military, and I can see this as being a useful tool in training and education and education of squad commanders, platoon commanders, and company commanders.


Just my two cents.

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 4
RE: Random maps - 12/1/2012 6:38:08 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 430
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline
Absolutely. Random maps are a very good tool for training due to the surprise factor, so random battles have endless possibilities. I like the idea of design my own battles with a few clicks. On the other hand sooner or later you´ll know every scenario included in the game and how to win it. Anyway, both options can live together.

< Message edited by Jafele -- 12/1/2012 8:45:25 PM >

(in reply to rfrizz)
Post #: 5
RE: Random maps - 12/1/2012 7:02:20 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 430
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline
---


< Message edited by Jafele -- 12/1/2012 7:03:09 PM >

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 6
RE: Random maps - 3/23/2013 12:22:11 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 430
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline
A question for Arjuna: In case some day a random map generator would be available for Command Ops (cross my fingers ), Will it be difficult to adapt the AI behaviour to random battles? In other words: Will react the AI in the same way that a common scenario with initial fixed deployment? I know this game is quite challenging for single player scenarios, but would it be so good in random battles?

Thanks

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 7
RE: Random maps - 3/23/2013 2:02:22 PM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1819
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline
The AI *is* an AI, so it analyses and adapts it's plan according to the known situation/intel picture and the objective list.

While a lot of scenarios made from 'just throwing stuff on a (random) bit of map' will be stupid this is the nature of 'random' creators ~ real world situations can be chaotic and unpredictable, but they aren't random ~ also many situations are untenable and are not suitable for 'main point of effort' defence or attack situations.

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 8
RE: Random maps - 3/24/2013 12:55:47 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17794
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Jafele,

One of the real strengths of the Cmd Ops engine is that it uses a generic AI not scenario specific scripting. Most games use the latter which means that for each new scenario they have to write up all the scripts to govern how the specific forces behave for this specific scenario. In Cmd ops the entities are situationally aware - ie they can identify and analyse the world around them. They can also develop plans to achieve their objectives. They can react to enemy and changes in the environment, like blown bridges. They can reassess their plan if things are not progressing as they should.

So for random generation of scenarios what would be required is first a means to either select a map from an existing set of maps or generate a random map (much harder). You would also have to determine the state of each crossing.

Then you would need to decide on the objectives for each side - what type, where and for how long they would be active. You need to determine the victory points assigned to each objective.

Next you need to decide on the force OBs for each side, including whether they start on map or arrive as reinforcements, where they start on the map, at what strengths and effectiveness.

You also need to determine the weather, air schedules and resupply schedules.

I've probably forgotten something but as you can see it's not a trivial undertaking to write some AI to handle all that.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to Lieste)
Post #: 9
RE: Random maps - 3/24/2013 1:50:27 AM   
dazkaz15


Posts: 1273
Joined: 12/14/2012
Status: offline
edit: Deleted post.

Posted in the wrong thread.

No idea how that happend

< Message edited by dazkaz15 -- 3/24/2013 2:05:23 AM >

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 10
RE: Random maps - 3/24/2013 5:57:52 AM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2950
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline
I too think that random map generation could be a major undertaking, though I´d support the "idea" generally. Most games I know that are capable of random map generation...failed at it. Particularly with regard to "realism" of landscapes at least.

Placement of Obj locations would be another issue, but I think certain rule sets could be developed, so that Obj Locs won´t be placed at "operationally" senseless places. Urban areas, crossing points, crossroads ect. would make some good pointers.

So all in all maybe a good idea for a probable CO2, but in hindsight of the WIP state of LOTB, Chir ect., I´d say there´s more important stuff to work on, for making these the most realistic and fun experience.

_____________________________

RockinHarry in the web:

http://www.myspace.com/rockinharryz
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockinharryz
https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann

(in reply to dazkaz15)
Post #: 11
RE: Random maps - 3/24/2013 11:16:35 AM   
Jafele


Posts: 430
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline
All of you know most of pc games have a really weak AI full of cheats (and ****s). The fact is that when a game include a random map generator its AI behaivour is poor in comparison with fixed scenarios. As Arjuna said, Comd Ops engine is that it uses a generic AI not scenario specific scripting. Arjuna, I consider Cmd Ops has an exceptional AI , that´s one of the reasons I would love a random map generator for the game. IMO random maps are a good test to any AI. Of course it must be a really hard work that takes a long time so I hope one of these days...

< Message edited by Jafele -- 3/24/2013 12:08:07 PM >

(in reply to RockinHarry)
Post #: 12
RE: Random maps - 3/24/2013 12:23:13 PM   
wodin


Posts: 8102
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
I'm with Leiste..random map generator really doesn't excite me at all..

Far better is either put the effort into making maps yourself or some sort of map maker that makes making maps as easy as possible.

Random map maker...no thanks.

_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 13
RE: Random maps - 3/24/2013 12:52:23 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 430
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline
quote:


Far better is either put the effort into making maps yourself or some sort of map maker that makes making maps as easy as possible.


Not all of us have enough free time to make maps, on the other hand I find easier to make a map with a few clicks instead of using some sort of map maker. Just my opinion.

< Message edited by Jafele -- 3/24/2013 12:55:08 PM >

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 14
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 11:22:46 AM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 175
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline
I think to not have a random scenario generator is a potential waste of briliant AI. As has been mentioned the AI is situationally aware, not script driven.

Why not keep the maps that have been made for the games in Aegean, Arnhem, Bulge but have some random selection of forces and objectives. Sid Meier's Gettysburg has this and I still enjoy a quick game. Combat Mission 1 had terrain generation and force selection - again I play it occasionally, and still enjoy it more than the recent version. Advanced Tactics has it but I find the continual production not as enjoyable as being told "this is what you've - take that town - you may have some cavalry coming up soon"

Of course it is not as "realistic" as a detailed sceario with exact historical forces and supply but I think it would add immensley to the appeal because the game would have almost infinite re-playability. Games with a specific number of scenarios (such as AGEOD's which I've got) always leave me feeling that I don't want to "use up all my ammo."

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 15
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 11:27:29 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17794
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Random map generation with our map structures and hi fidelity terrain grid would be a real challenge. However a more feasible option would be to select a map from one of the existing set of maps and then create a random set of objectives and choose a random order of battle for each side. that would be more do-able.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 16
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 12:51:42 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 430
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Random map generation with our map structures and hi fidelity terrain grid would be a real challenge. However a more feasible option would be to select a map from one of the existing set of maps and then create a random set of objectives and choose a random order of battle for each side. that would be more do-able.


+1

It´s much better than nothing and also would be a good start for a future real random map generator . Still I think many people is not really conscious about this powerful AI and its endless possibilities.

< Message edited by Jafele -- 3/28/2013 1:22:08 PM >

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 17
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 1:52:49 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 1974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline
+1 to Wodin and Lieste. Doesn't interest me at all. Many more things I would rather see development time put into, especially since to do (almost) what is being asked - take a map and customise it, put your own force on it etc is very easy using the tools available - you just have to be prepared to put the initial time in to learn how to use the scenmaker, and that's not too much time, really (and enjoyable). You could learn it enough to get going in the time it would take you to play through the Hofen scenario. It's the beautiful, accurate, historical real world maps that get me.

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 18
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 3:19:13 PM   
dazkaz15


Posts: 1273
Joined: 12/14/2012
Status: offline
I think a better way of doing this would be to have a centralised location on line where all the user made scenarios are stored, so that people can load a list of them from within the game start-up menu.
The creator of them can write a description to go in the left area as its clicked on in the list, and maybe even people can rate them by giving stars. Of course this list would only be updated when you are online and click on the load user scenarios button.
This way there will be plenty of random maps, and probably even some great historical user made scenarios to choose from as well.
What do you think?





Attachment (1)

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 19
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 4:03:59 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 1974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline
This way there will be plenty of random maps, and probably even some great historical user made scenarios to choose from as well.

If someone makes them there will be.....

You can already get user-made scenarios (I think there might be 8 of them...) from the Matrix site, Daz, or this forum. The absence of these things isn't due to a lack of a place to put and find them, it's due to poeple not making them.

Myself, I have really loved the handful of scenarios that have been produced. The recent Brabant pack was outstanding, and the Woensdrecht scenario is still one of my favourites. But there's plenty to play still in the actual games. Still haven't played at least a quarter of what's available in BFTB and HTTR, because each scenario is so replayable, so I've ended up stuck with favourites.

Be even more when the COTA pack is out.

I have, of course, myself (like you, probably) adapted about twenty or so maps/scenarios and played them. But I wouldn't think to upload them because they're minor tinkerings of the kind anyone can put together just by messing around with the Scenmaker.

< Message edited by phoenix -- 3/28/2013 4:10:03 PM >

(in reply to dazkaz15)
Post #: 20
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 4:33:31 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 430
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline
I find fine dazkaz15 idea


quote:

ORIGINAL: phoenix

If someone makes them there will be.....


Like it or not I guess 90% of players have never made a map. They are not "guilty", are they? Some guys love to make maps, other people hate it. Basically all of them are customers who pay to enjoy a game. To my mind random maps are not against common scenarios, they can live together. The more people enjoy the game the most succesful will be.



< Message edited by Jafele -- 3/28/2013 4:37:35 PM >

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 21
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 4:58:09 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 1974
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline
Guilty? Who said that? Just adding my preference, like everyone else. Development of this game is restricted by the very limited resources - that's why people are expressing preferences - because for Dave to implement that means he won't have time to do something else. Be nice to have everything, of course - including random maps - to keep everyone happy. But if it's a choice between spending time over the next 2 years working on random maps OR working on the EF game, LOTB, KOAD (or even, for that matter, finessing the functionality of the present engine via the beta process we're enjoying now) not to mention getting out the COTA pack, then I vote for leaving the random maps for another half decade. Just my opinion, to add to the others in this little friendly discussion. :)

< Message edited by phoenix -- 3/28/2013 6:46:54 PM >

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 22
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 6:46:56 PM   
johndoesecond


Posts: 964
Joined: 8/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Random map generation with our map structures and hi fidelity terrain grid would be a real challenge. However a more feasible option would be to select a map from one of the existing set of maps and then create a random set of objectives and choose a random order of battle for each side. that would be more do-able.

quote:

ain grid would be a real challenge. However a more feasible option would be to select a map from one of the existing set of maps and then create a random set of objectives and choose a random order of battle for each side. that would be more do-able.


Yes, I like the idea Dave

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 23
RE: Random maps - 3/28/2013 11:31:25 PM   
wodin


Posts: 8102
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
The objective idea is a good one. Like the sound of that. Random order of battle though..hmm balancing issues may arise there..how about the player can pick his OOB and the AI picks theirs. Say a point based system like Combat mission or let the player pick the AI's aswell if they want.

Tigers Unleashed has a set up version of their scenarios..where you can add\delete change the OOB for the scenario (aswell as more game specific things like weather AI aggression etc)

_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to johndoesecond)
Post #: 24
RE: Random maps - 3/29/2013 1:16:33 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17794
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline
Yeh I was thinking along the lines of the users selecting the type of game they would like to play - eg battle of the bases, capture the flag, major offensive on wide or narrow front, meeting engagement. Then they could select how big a force to have - eg Bde Gp, Div Gp, Corps. The relative ratio of forces between the sides would be tied to the type of game - eg for a meeting engagement they would be 1:1 ratio but for a major offensive it may be 2:1 attacker v defender. Next they would select an arrival schedule in terms of what percentage of their force would arrive where and when. From this info the AI could troll through various force lists and build an OB for the game. With more effort we could provide an interface for the players to select their own OB.

_____________________________

Dave "Arjuna" O'Connor
www.panthergames.com

(in reply to wodin)
Post #: 25
RE: Random maps - 3/29/2013 3:09:15 AM   
jimcarravallah

 

Posts: 579
Joined: 1/4/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Yeh I was thinking along the lines of the users selecting the type of game they would like to play - eg battle of the bases, capture the flag, major offensive on wide or narrow front, meeting engagement. Then they could select how big a force to have - eg Bde Gp, Div Gp, Corps. The relative ratio of forces between the sides would be tied to the type of game - eg for a meeting engagement they would be 1:1 ratio but for a major offensive it may be 2:1 attacker v defender. Next they would select an arrival schedule in terms of what percentage of their force would arrive where and when. From this info the AI could troll through various force lists and build an OB for the game. With more effort we could provide an interface for the players to select their own OB.


The concept isn't very different from Steel Panthers' battle generator.

However, Steel Panthers has significantly fewer parameters to consider for random battle generation considering the richness offered in weapons / equipment / ammunition attributes, force composition, battlefield command and control, logistics, and terrain effects nuances when compared to Command Ops.



_____________________________

Take care,

jim

(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 26
RE: Random maps - 3/29/2013 3:48:10 AM   
wodin


Posts: 8102
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline
Sounds great. Really like the idea. People could then just make maps a use them solely for this quick battle system. They wouldn't really need to do OOB's and all that side of things..just make the map and say it's for the "QB generator".


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Yeh I was thinking along the lines of the users selecting the type of game they would like to play - eg battle of the bases, capture the flag, major offensive on wide or narrow front, meeting engagement. Then they could select how big a force to have - eg Bde Gp, Div Gp, Corps. The relative ratio of forces between the sides would be tied to the type of game - eg for a meeting engagement they would be 1:1 ratio but for a major offensive it may be 2:1 attacker v defender. Next they would select an arrival schedule in terms of what percentage of their force would arrive where and when. From this info the AI could troll through various force lists and build an OB for the game. With more effort we could provide an interface for the players to select their own OB.


_____________________________

My Tactical wargame facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/Tacticalwargame


(in reply to Arjuna)
Post #: 27
RE: Random maps - 3/29/2013 8:04:35 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2950
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Yeh I was thinking along the lines of the users selecting the type of game they would like to play - eg battle of the bases, capture the flag, major offensive on wide or narrow front, meeting engagement. Then they could select how big a force to have - eg Bde Gp, Div Gp, Corps. The relative ratio of forces between the sides would be tied to the type of game - eg for a meeting engagement they would be 1:1 ratio but for a major offensive it may be 2:1 attacker v defender. Next they would select an arrival schedule in terms of what percentage of their force would arrive where and when. From this info the AI could troll through various force lists and build an OB for the game. With more effort we could provide an interface for the players to select their own OB.


The concept isn't very different from Steel Panthers' battle generator.

However, Steel Panthers has significantly fewer parameters to consider for random battle generation considering the richness offered in weapons / equipment / ammunition attributes, force composition, battlefield command and control, logistics, and terrain effects nuances when compared to Command Ops.




Need to divide between Matrix SPWAW and Camo Workshop SP2WW2. SPWAW auto generated maps and battles are terrible, while at least in SP2WW2 auto map generation got to a really advanced and useful state.

_____________________________

RockinHarry in the web:

http://www.myspace.com/rockinharryz
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockinharryz
https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann

(in reply to jimcarravallah)
Post #: 28
RE: Random maps - 3/29/2013 8:25:33 PM   
jimcarravallah

 

Posts: 579
Joined: 1/4/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry


quote:

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Yeh I was thinking along the lines of the users selecting the type of game they would like to play - eg battle of the bases, capture the flag, major offensive on wide or narrow front, meeting engagement. Then they could select how big a force to have - eg Bde Gp, Div Gp, Corps. The relative ratio of forces between the sides would be tied to the type of game - eg for a meeting engagement they would be 1:1 ratio but for a major offensive it may be 2:1 attacker v defender. Next they would select an arrival schedule in terms of what percentage of their force would arrive where and when. From this info the AI could troll through various force lists and build an OB for the game. With more effort we could provide an interface for the players to select their own OB.


The concept isn't very different from Steel Panthers' battle generator.

However, Steel Panthers has significantly fewer parameters to consider for random battle generation considering the richness offered in weapons / equipment / ammunition attributes, force composition, battlefield command and control, logistics, and terrain effects nuances when compared to Command Ops.




Need to divide between Matrix SPWAW and Camo Workshop SP2WW2. SPWAW auto generated maps and battles are terrible, while at least in SP2WW2 auto map generation got to a really advanced and useful state.


I was only speaking to the concept of auto-generating types of engagements, not the results.

Moved on from SPWAW / SP2WW2 and SPMBT long ago because my interests were aimed more at force on force issues from those engagements and the logistics that affected them (as a minimum resupply issues / supply lines in a longer term battle).



_____________________________

Take care,

jim

(in reply to RockinHarry)
Post #: 29
RE: Random maps - 3/29/2013 8:33:31 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2950
Joined: 1/18/2001
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah


quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry


quote:

ORIGINAL: jimcarravallah


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Yeh I was thinking along the lines of the users selecting the type of game they would like to play - eg battle of the bases, capture the flag, major offensive on wide or narrow front, meeting engagement. Then they could select how big a force to have - eg Bde Gp, Div Gp, Corps. The relative ratio of forces between the sides would be tied to the type of game - eg for a meeting engagement they would be 1:1 ratio but for a major offensive it may be 2:1 attacker v defender. Next they would select an arrival schedule in terms of what percentage of their force would arrive where and when. From this info the AI could troll through various force lists and build an OB for the game. With more effort we could provide an interface for the players to select their own OB.


The concept isn't very different from Steel Panthers' battle generator.

However, Steel Panthers has significantly fewer parameters to consider for random battle generation considering the richness offered in weapons / equipment / ammunition attributes, force composition, battlefield command and control, logistics, and terrain effects nuances when compared to Command Ops.




Need to divide between Matrix SPWAW and Camo Workshop SP2WW2. SPWAW auto generated maps and battles are terrible, while at least in SP2WW2 auto map generation got to a really advanced and useful state.


I was only speaking to the concept of auto-generating types of engagements, not the results.

Moved on from SPWAW / SP2WW2 and SPMBT long ago because my interests were aimed more at force on force issues from those engagements and the logistics that affected them (as a minimum resupply issues / supply lines in a longer term battle).




Roger that! :) From my experience that´s an ongoing issue. Currently don´t know of any wargames that give either good auto generated force compositions, nor random maps and appropiately set up tasks. CMX1 quick battles failed at it (IMHO), as well as does SP. It´s likely a science on its own to get that working and personally I´d prefer Dave working on other things.

_____________________________

RockinHarry in the web:

http://www.myspace.com/rockinharryz
http://www.youtube.com/user/rockinharryz
https://www.facebook.com/harry.zann

(in reply to jimcarravallah)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Discontinued Games] >> Command Ops Series >> Random maps Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.134