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Kamikaze Defense - 11/19/2012 7:04:58 PM   
Gridley380


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OK, looking for some feedback on whether I'm deploying my CV force as well as I can, 'cause I just got hammered by a Kamikaze attack.

Here's what I did:
Fleet composition: seven air combat TF, all in one hex (planned to spread them over two hexes but had 'follow' problems)
TF composition: 15 ships per TF, 2 CV or 1 CV and 3 CVL ea, 8 (Fletcher) DD ea, balance CA/CL (no Omahas). All ships are fully upgraded.
Air groups: full of F6F-3's. Average pilot experience 60+, air skill 70+. Lady Lex's VF-2 are all at 75+ EXP. :-)
CAP settings: two or more groups set every 5,000ft from 5,000ft to 30,000ft. From reading the CAP thread it seems like I would have done better to focus on the lower altitudes. Set for 40% CAP. Fatigue is 15 or less.

Luck, of course, always plays a major role and manifests in various ways (weather, die rolls, etc.). I cringe when it happens but I accept that. What I'm asking is whether there's something else I could or should have done? Different TF composition, perhaps including my fast BB's? Different CAP altitudes? Higher CAP percentage and accept higher fatigue? Swap out some Hellcats for Corsairs? Something else?

Thanks!
Post #: 1
RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/19/2012 7:38:36 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8299
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

OK, looking for some feedback on whether I'm deploying my CV force as well as I can, 'cause I just got hammered by a Kamikaze attack.

Here's what I did:
Fleet composition: seven air combat TF, all in one hex (planned to spread them over two hexes but had 'follow' problems)
TF composition: 15 ships per TF, 2 CV or 1 CV and 3 CVL ea, 8 (Fletcher) DD ea, balance CA/CL (no Omahas). All ships are fully upgraded.
Air groups: full of F6F-3's. Average pilot experience 60+, air skill 70+. Lady Lex's VF-2 are all at 75+ EXP. :-)
CAP settings: two or more groups set every 5,000ft from 5,000ft to 30,000ft. From reading the CAP thread it seems like I would have done better to focus on the lower altitudes. Set for 40% CAP. Fatigue is 15 or less.

Luck, of course, always plays a major role and manifests in various ways (weather, die rolls, etc.). I cringe when it happens but I accept that. What I'm asking is whether there's something else I could or should have done? Different TF composition, perhaps including my fast BB's? Different CAP altitudes? Higher CAP percentage and accept higher fatigue? Swap out some Hellcats for Corsairs? Something else?

Thanks!


Where were you?
What's the date?
What model kamis did you mmet? Numbers?

The best defense is bomb the factories to rubble. Then bounce the rubble. Then burn it. Nuking it should be on the table.


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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/19/2012 7:44:14 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Agree; hit them at their base and blow them up before they take off. Once they're in the air you are going to take losses. I have found having a good # of BB's and CA's in the CVTF often causes the kamikazes to split their attacks from the CV's, and the armored ships can take more hits and still float.

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/19/2012 9:56:54 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Agree; hit them at their base and blow them up before they take off. Once they're in the air you are going to take losses. I have found having a good # of BB's and CA's in the CVTF often causes the kamikazes to split their attacks from the CV's, and the armored ships can take more hits and still float.


Yep. As I was making my silly joke I forgot to say there's nothing better after a great CAP (more than 40%) than the modern BBs with full AA upgrades. Even if they don't destroy many they really mess up the aim.

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/20/2012 12:33:58 AM   
JeffK


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You cant beat the kamikazis, once the JFB gets serious the numbers are just too great .

At least you dont have CVE around, they have a magnet somewhere between the magazines and boilers that the kamis are attracted to.

My approach has been to sit off shore about 6-8 hexes and smash them at long range (for them) I tried a few CVE TF a few hexes further out covering with LRCAP but an Emily or Betty can upset this tactic.

When you can, hit their airfields, B29's are useful here.

Rotate your CVTF until things get quiet and be ready to rush in and grab whatever you are after.

Kami are a good arguement for a Kuriles approach which allows LB air support.

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/20/2012 5:40:25 AM   
crsutton


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Yes, unfortunately Allied naval AA is just to anemic to stop kamis. (In stock) As said before put BBs into the TF, they will soak up hits. A lot of corsairs will help out as well. The Allies increased the number of fighters on their carriers as a counter to the kami threat. But basically you will just have to accept that they are going to be more effective and plan accordingly.

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/20/2012 6:33:08 AM   
LoBaron


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Besides the suggestions already made, Kamis are in my opinion one of the few things
that justify low cost pickets. Nothing hurts more than your trained Kami unit throwing
itself into a lonesome SC or even AKL deck.

If your honor cannot bear it, use DDs as pickets before you get into range with
high value assets.


Kamikaze is one of the things in game where I don´t know where to put it. Every well playing
Japanese player will have Kami pilots available Japane could only dream of. Kamis were
at 95% young men who were barely able to keep a fighter plane airborne. There were some
exceptions, as for example Sakai´s kamikaze mission, but those were rare.

History never showed what it means to have a huge ammount of trained but suicidal
pilots available, but this might also simply be because downfall never happened...
Interesting but difficult topic IMHO, the Kamikaze.

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S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 7
RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/20/2012 11:58:16 AM   
Gabede


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From: Central, NC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Besides the suggestions already made, Kamis are in my opinion one of the few things
that justify low cost pickets. Nothing hurts more than your trained Kami unit throwing
itself into a lonesome SC or even AKL deck.

If your honor cannot bear it, use DDs as pickets before you get into range with
high value assets.


Kamikaze is one of the things in game where I don´t know where to put it. Every well playing
Japanese player will have Kami pilots available Japane could only dream of. Kamis were
at 95% young men who were barely able to keep a fighter plane airborne. There were some
exceptions, as for example Sakai´s kamikaze mission, but those were rare.

History never showed what it means to have a huge ammount of trained but suicidal
pilots available, but this might also simply be because downfall never happened...
Interesting but difficult topic IMHO, the Kamikaze.


Much agreed about the experienced pilots statement. I used it as a last defense, as i viewed it actually was, and the poor pilots got slaughtered. The experience of the pilots is the biggest factor i believe, but i just couldn't bring myself to put pilots with a fighting chance into suicide planes, so i just basicly wasted the airframes with sucky pilots.


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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/21/2012 12:32:00 AM   
Wally Wilson


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This is from Wikipedia...

"Approximately 2,800 Kamikaze attackers sunk 34 Navy ships, damaged 368 others, killed 4,900 sailors, and wounded over 4,800. Despite radar detection and cuing, airborne interception and attrition, and massive anti-aircraft barrages, a distressing 14 percent of Kamikazes survived to score a hit on a ship; nearly 8.5 percent of all ships hit by Kamikazes sank."

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/21/2012 7:07:59 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4512
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From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wally Wilson

This is from Wikipedia...

"Approximately 2,800 Kamikaze attackers sunk 34 Navy ships, damaged 368 others, killed 4,900 sailors, and wounded over 4,800. Despite radar detection and cuing, airborne interception and attrition, and massive anti-aircraft barrages, a distressing 14 percent of Kamikazes survived to score a hit on a ship; nearly 8.5 percent of all ships hit by Kamikazes sank."


While I am no friend of Wikipedia when it comes to such topics. Wow. 14%? I thought it to be much less.

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All hail the superior ones!

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/23/2012 11:42:08 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Besides the suggestions already made, Kamis are in my opinion one of the few things
that justify low cost pickets. Nothing hurts more than your trained Kami unit throwing
itself into a lonesome SC or even AKL deck.

If your honor cannot bear it, use DDs as pickets before you get into range with
high value assets.


Kamikaze is one of the things in game where I don´t know where to put it. Every well playing
Japanese player will have Kami pilots available Japane could only dream of. Kamis were
at 95% young men who were barely able to keep a fighter plane airborne. There were some
exceptions, as for example Sakai´s kamikaze mission, but those were rare.

History never showed what it means to have a huge ammount of trained but suicidal
pilots available, but this might also simply be because downfall never happened...
Interesting but difficult topic IMHO, the Kamikaze.

Is that how Sakai got to be an ace? By flying five successful Kamikaze missions?

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/24/2012 12:06:05 AM   
JeffK


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We do need a sarcasm smiley dont we.




















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Post #: 12
RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/24/2012 12:08:18 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

If your honor cannot bear it, use DDs as pickets before you get into range with
high value assets.


That is in fact what happened on a number of occasions. (One DD's crew got so tired of being the target of kamikaze attacks that they put a large arrow on the deck with a sign reading "Carriers this way".)

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/24/2012 5:10:06 AM   
crsutton


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From: Maryland
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Yep, I will have no guilt cap trapping kamis with DEs and Pfs. Perhaps send a couple of SCs in. Otherwise, your carriers are just going to eat it.

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 11/26/2012 6:31:39 PM   
Gridley380


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Thanks for your comments, folks!

FYI to those asking, I was doing a 'recon in force' to see what would happen when my carrier force encountered kamikazes. NE of the Marianas, mid-44.

Next time will, I hope, be different.

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Post #: 15
RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/6/2012 4:48:09 PM   
fodder


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From: Daytona Beach
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A bit late, but....




Attachment (1)

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/6/2012 5:12:47 PM   
cavalry

 

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What skills are important to Kamikaze - low nav??? High Nav maybe search?

cav.

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/6/2012 5:29:18 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 8299
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

Thanks for your comments, folks!

FYI to those asking, I was doing a 'recon in force' to see what would happen when my carrier force encountered kamikazes. NE of the Marianas, mid-44.

Next time will, I hope, be different.


A long time ago in an AI game I decided to do a little "experiment" of my own. Here are some of the results, posted in the forum at the time:
-----------------------------
"In my on-going experimentation with my late-war game, "just to see", I decided to challenge the HI kami force with three CV TFs, all in the same hex, CAP at 60, late-war fighters with pilots at 70-80 for the most part.

Below is an edited/chopped down combat report, all from 7 July 1945. For all you guys still in the early war, this is just to give an idea of the carnage possible, even in mid-summer 1945, with the AI losing several divisions a week ashore, all of Indo-China, Malaysia gone, Hong Kong and the PI 100% taken, the merchant marine reduced to under 20 hulls, etc.

Again, I did this as an experiment, but it still is useful learning. The AI NEVER gives up. I haven't totaled up the exchanges, but I think I shot down at least 500-700 planes. They kept on coming. On some attacks I had EIGHT of those red vector lines back to their bases, all coming for my precious carriers.

I thought of rolling back to an earlier save, but didn't. The Russians activate in three weeks, and I want to see how I do with no carriers.
_______________________________________________________________
Morning Air attack on TF, near Aogashima at 113,66

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 53 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 75
A6M3 Zero x 32
A6M3a Zero x 9
A6M5b Zero x 47
A6M5c Zero x 171
A7M2 Sam x 30
B6N1 Jill x 36
B6N2a Jill x 25
B7A2 Grace x 23
D3A2 Val x 21
D4Y2 Judy x 17
D4Y3 Judy x 21
D4Y4 Judy x 78
N1K1-J George x 16
N1K2-J George x 32
P1Y2 Frances x 13
Q1W1 Lorna x 3
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 5
Ki-27b Nate x 54
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 61
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 23
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 8
Ki-43-IV Oscar x 32
Ki-45 KAIc Nick x 3
Ki-84a Frank x 55
Ki-84b Frank x 33
Ki-84r Frank x 30
Ki-93-Ia x 3
Ki-100-I Tony x 41



Allied aircraft
F4U-1D Corsair x 230
F6F-5 Hellcat x 247


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 45 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 15 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 18 destroyed
A6M5c Zero: 17 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 24 destroyed
B6N2a Jill: 17 destroyed
B7A2 Grace: 14 destroyed
D3A2 Val: 10 destroyed
D4Y2 Judy: 11 destroyed
D4Y3 Judy: 15 destroyed
D4Y4 Judy: 26 destroyed, 1 damaged
N1K1-J George: 2 destroyed
N1K2-J George: 1 destroyed
P1Y2 Frances: 3 destroyed, 1 damaged
Q1W1 Lorna: 1 destroyed
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-27b Nate: 4 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 19 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 7 destroyed
Ki-43-IV Oscar: 8 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 8 destroyed
Ki-84r Frank: 11 destroyed
Ki-100-I Tony: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 3 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Lake Champlain, Kamikaze hits 19, and is sunk
CV Randolph, Kamikaze hits 23, and is sunk
CV Intrepid, Kamikaze hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
CV Bunker Hill, Kamikaze hits 6, on fire
CV Bon Homme Richard, Kamikaze hits 21, and is sunk
DD Talbot, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Spangler, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
DE Willmarth, Kamikaze hits 3, and is sunk
DD McCook, Kamikaze hits 4, and is sunk
DE Gunason, Kamikaze hits 4, and is sunk
DE Lawrence C. Taylor, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Dennis, Kamikaze hits 7, and is sunk
DE Lamons, Kamikaze hits 1, and is sunk
DE Connolly, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Leslie L. B. Knox, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Jobb, Kamikaze hits 5, and is sunk
DE Charles J. Kimmel, Kamikaze hits 2, and is sunk
DE Cecil J. Doyle, Kamikaze hits 4, and is sunk
DE Eisele, Kamikaze hits 4, and is sunk
DD Ross "


http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2503498&mpage=1&key=kamis�

if you want to see the follow-on attacks.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/6/2012 5:30:56 PM >


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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/28/2012 7:11:11 AM   
tk208

 

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On the subject guys, do all kami's do the same damage or is it relative to size/bombload?

Cheers.

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/28/2012 5:06:50 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

On the subject guys, do all kami's do the same damage or is it relative to size/bombload?

Cheers.


All kamis don't do the same damage. Weapons carried have some effect, but I don't think what has ever been revealed. There are randoms involved of course. Size and weapons load has to be traded off with speed and maneuverability in the kami ever getting to the point of impact.

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/28/2012 5:31:14 PM   
AcePylut


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You need to spread your tf's over multiple hexes to disperse the kami attacks.


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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/28/2012 10:58:47 PM   
tk208

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

On the subject guys, do all kami's do the same damage or is it relative to size/bombload?

Cheers.


All kamis don't do the same damage. Weapons carried have some effect, but I don't think what has ever been revealed. There are randoms involved of course. Size and weapons load has to be traded off with speed and maneuverability in the kami ever getting to the point of impact.


Hmm so a peggy with 3x 250kg bombs should do more damage that say a zero? Just trying to figure out what airframes to use in the kami role.

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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/29/2012 12:03:28 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: tk208

On the subject guys, do all kami's do the same damage or is it relative to size/bombload?

Cheers.


All kamis don't do the same damage. Weapons carried have some effect, but I don't think what has ever been revealed. There are randoms involved of course. Size and weapons load has to be traded off with speed and maneuverability in the kami ever getting to the point of impact.


Hmm so a peggy with 3x 250kg bombs should do more damage that say a zero? Just trying to figure out what airframes to use in the kami role.


It should, yes, all things equal. But there are randoms. Bombers have a lower chance of getting to the target unhit, but can take more damage before being destroyed. Also consider altitude on the attack. Weather comes into play sometimes. Certainly pilot stats. Etc.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 12/29/2012 12:04:12 AM >


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RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/29/2012 1:11:25 AM   
Sakai007


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My grandfather's DD was on picket duty during the Battle of Okinawa. A Ki-61 Tony made a pass at their ship, hit the mast with a wing, and spun into the water causing minimal damage. A member of the ships crew jumped over board when this happened, so the captain swung the DD around and picked up that man while still under air attack. Crazy times!

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Post #: 24
RE: Kamikaze Defense - 12/29/2012 6:06:06 PM   
John Lansford

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sakai007

My grandfather's DD was on picket duty during the Battle of Okinawa. A Ki-61 Tony made a pass at their ship, hit the mast with a wing, and spun into the water causing minimal damage. A member of the ships crew jumped over board when this happened, so the captain swung the DD around and picked up that man while still under air attack. Crazy times!


One of the biggest fears from a kamikaze wasn't necessarily the crash itself, but the flaming fuel that got sprayed over a large part of small ships especially. Many DE's and DD's had half their deck covered in burning fuel after a kamikaze made a glancing blow on the ship for minimal damage. The AA gun crews were exposed to the environment so they were particularly affected.

(in reply to Sakai007)
Post #: 25
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