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Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain

 
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Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/13/2012 3:34:44 AM   
balto

 

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I have so many questions on Entrenchment, I do not know where to begin.

Let me just try to explain just some of what I do not understand as far as Entrenchment. This is all based on the opening turns of the 1914 Scenario.

1) pg. 21 Entrenchment says it increases up to the max possible for that nation. Look at the Serb units, several of the units go above the Level 3 Entrench level. How does the max trench per nation work?

2) I see a AH unit move to a grassland tile west of Belgrade, its entrench is at 0. On turn 2, it is up to Entrench level 4. How does that work, I thought it was one level each turn until you reach your nation max?

3) The Entrench Level belongs to the hex, not the unit. That would work if the hex information would have the MAX ENTRENCH possible and its PRESENT Trench level. Right now, it just has the MAX..,, I think.

4) pg. 21 Entrenchment Value = Hex's Entrench Level x Entrench Bonus of the hex's terrain type. What?

5) The manual says if you hit the space bar, it helps you to visualize the Terrain and Entrench levels. I assumed this meant the actual Entrench level or its max capability or both. I do not see how in its present state it is useful to us to see the entrench pictures.

6) Why don't the UNITS' Entrench level include the terrain entrench bonus and the defense numbers of the units also include the terrain bonus? I am pretty sure I am correct in saying that in its present state, you cannot really analyze opposing forces without tiresome and arduous clicks between the units and the terrain and adding them together on paper. I just do not get it.

I am not bashing this game, I am simply stating that presently the terrain and entrenchment effects on combat are not making sense to me.

Thank you.
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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/13/2012 10:51:49 AM   
Lukas


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Sorry for the confusion. There are two things that affect the entrenchment bonus of a hex:

- Entrenchment level: 0 to 4. Can only go as high as the nation's current entrenchment technology (default = up to level 1, barbed wire = level 2, pillboxes = lev 3, concrete dugouts = lev 4). These levels are visualised on the map. This represents how good a nation is at applying defensive tactics & preparations.

- Terrain entrenchment factor: Hard soil such as mountains, or weak soil such as desert dunes or swamps are not good for entrenchment, no matter how good a nation "can dig". The total entrenchment bonus a hex (and the unit that occupies it) gets is the entrenchment level multiplied by the terrain bonus.
So if a unit entrenches a desert hex (entrench factor = 4) to level 2 it gets a total of 4 * 2 = 8 extra defense from the entrenchment bonus.

The value displayed in the selected unit's stats is the total bonus, so the level * terrain factor.

Does this help?

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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/13/2012 5:20:20 PM   
wodin


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Lukas in the desert I expect they built trench above ground using sand bags like they did in many parts of the Western front (well sand bags and earth due to poor drainage).

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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/13/2012 5:59:13 PM   
Lukas


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I'm talking about sand dunes tho. Surely you can fortify it a bit - and you'll get some bonus - but it's much smaller than what you get on grassland. That said, terrain types have defender & attacker bonuses of their own regardless of entrenchment, and in case of Dunes both suffer penalties making combat generally slow on this terrain type.

Besides Dunes there is also "normal" desert terrain, which is more similar to grassland.

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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/13/2012 9:08:31 PM   
wodin


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The British and Germans had a good trench system on the dunes in north Belgium. The Germans landed a very successful attack on the British dunes at one point during the War but I'm abit rusty on exactly when that was I think around the time of Passchedeale. A fairly substantial British force surrendered. So there was a tench system there..I believe it was a royal pain to build though. Obviously desert sand dunes are a different matter alltogether.

< Message edited by wodin -- 11/13/2012 9:09:17 PM >


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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/13/2012 10:36:55 PM   
balto

 

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Hi Lukas,

That helps somewhat. Could you clarify for me the following questions?

1) Taking your example of Desert. If a unit is in the Desert (Def Bonus 4, and Entrenchment 4) and you are at Entrenchment level 2, do you receive a TOTAL DEFENSIVE bonus of 12 (2x4+4)? Or does the game engine use these factors in two different ways such as an 8 for Entrench and a 4 for terrain bonus, both of which affect combat diffferently?

2) A larger question is your statement, "the value displayed in the selected unit's stats is the total bonus, so the level * terrain factor." If this were correct, that would be great, but I do not believe it is working like that. I say this because no matter what type of terrain or the level of entrenchment., the Defender bonus does not appear. Thus a unit on Grass does not show it bonus of +4, nor does a unit in Rough show its +7 bonus. Thus you have to go back and forth between the units and the terrain and the entrenchment level picture (1 thru 4). It is really clumsy this way. If I am wrong I apologize, but I do not think I am. If I am still correct, the best way would be to have the defender number as like this -- Infantry at Entrench Level 2 in the Rough the Defense should be 10 (+7) and the Entrench should be 4(x2)., the total defense would be 25 (17+8) which is easier to visulaize compared to its present format.

3) Cetinje does not work properly. The hex states it is Fortress with Entrench of 3, but the Garrison has Entrench at 11.

< Message edited by balto -- 11/13/2012 10:38:09 PM >

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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/14/2012 10:04:26 AM   
Myrddraal

 

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Hi balto,

I think you might be confusing the terrain entrenchment factor (shown in the hex characteristics) and the entrenchment level. The key figure that matters is the one shown in the unit stats bar. This is the figure which is used in combat calculation, and is a combination of the terrain entrenchment factor and unit entrenchment.

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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/14/2012 10:33:46 AM   
balto

 

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Hi Myrddraal,

I thank you for your response, but I do not understand what you are saying.

If you refer to my bullet #2, it contradicts everything you are saying. My bullet #2 states that despite the terrain and entrenchment, the unit stats are the same.

If you could help me to understand what you are saying, I would appreciate that very much.

Do you also have insight into my question #1?

Thanks again.

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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/14/2012 3:56:26 PM   
Myrddraal

 

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I'm not entirely sure I'm answering your question, because I'm not sure which bit it is that seems wrong... The unit has a couple of defence stats which are displayed completely independently of terrain and entrenchment, it's just another factor in the actual combat. The stat shown in the hex information window is the entrenchment modifier, which is constant for that hex and never changes. The actual entrenchment level of the hex isn't displayed there, but is displayed visually on the map (if you press space you can see it more clearly).

The bit that really matters is the entrenchment stat in the unit stats panel when the unit is selected. That's the hex entrenchment value * the terrain entrenchment modifier.

That's my understanding of it... hopefully that helps, or am I missing the point?

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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/14/2012 5:16:07 PM   
balto

 

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Hello Again Myrddraal,

You and I are on the same page with how it works. My point is that presently this is very cumbersome to check you and your opponent's strength when dealing with dozens of units on dozens of turns.

Think about it you have to; (1) click on the HEX info (that has the Base Defense and the Entrenchment Modifier), then (2) you have to go back to the unit and multiply the hex's entrenchment modifier by the unit's entrenchment level, then add back in the hex terrain modifier to the units defense factor. This is not a small thing when you have dozens of units. If you look at the end of my bullet #2, my suggestions (which I believe I had seen in other games) provide all of the details right on the face of the unit.

I will stop my comments on this unless I see others bringing up this issue. Thank you.

PS - How about my bullet #3 on Cetinje, is this incorrect?

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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/15/2012 9:16:59 AM   
Myrddraal

 

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No no, don't stop the comments, this is useful stuff. Clearly it could be clearer, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You don't have to open the hex info, the 'entrenchment' stat shown on the unit is hex entrenchment level * terrain entrenchment factor. So this is shown alongside the units defence stat in the stats panel when the unit is selected without having to open any panels. If you mouse over an enemy unit to see the combat prognosis, it also displays keys stats there: the defender's defence stat and entrenchment stat.

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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/15/2012 10:54:17 PM   
balto

 

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Myrddraal, thank you for bearing with me.

I still agree with you, I just am not writing very well. Your last post, while correct, none of these fields show the effect of theTerrain Defense Bonus. The Unit Attack, Defense, and Entrenchment are there, but the terrain bonus is not. So if a unit could attack either a defender in Grass (+4) or in the Rough (+7), the combat prognosis screen would show the same Defense factor for both.

While the Combat Prognosis Ratio MIGHT take this into account (assuming there is no bug in this calculation); the screens themselves do not.

I am just stating that it would MUCH more useful if the Combat Prognosis screen had the Terrain Bonus either displayed separately or 'added-in' to the Unit Defense.

This is not huge, it is just an observation.


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RE: Lots of questions on Entrench and Terrain - 11/16/2012 8:05:22 AM   
Myrddraal

 

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Ah, I see... that makes sense.

I can assure that the combat prognosis does take it into account, but you're right, we don't display the terrain defence bonus anywhere other than the hex info.

The unit stats panel is already very crowded, perhaps it would be acceptable (in the patch) to add the terrain defence bonus on the prognosis screen only?

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Post #: 13
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