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RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9

 
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RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/15/2012 3:00:46 PM   
btbw

 

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Joined: 11/1/2011
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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2330675

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 31
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/15/2012 3:18:06 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12262
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: btbw

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2330675


yeah thanks, have found it too myselve and have been digging through already


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(in reply to btbw)
Post #: 32
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/15/2012 3:20:44 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12262
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
here's one of the examples out of my AAR vs Rainer79, plenty of them more in the AAR. I just copied it out of the AAR, together with the notes I have been putting in with the AAR. You can see lots of CV based fighters doing one HUGE combined sweep (something you never manage to do when you set them to "SWEEP"). These "sweeps" were one of many failed attempts of my CVs escorting a land based strike of bombers (having their own escorts), because my carriers ended up in range of the LBA bombers' target. Have a look yourselve.




Afternoon Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 48 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 2
A6M5b Zero x 3
J2M3 Jack x 4
N1K1-J George x 9
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 6
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 3
Ki-61-II KAI Tony x 3
Ki-84a Frank x 2



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 84
F6F-3 Hellcat x 20
F6F-5 Hellcat x 90




Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed
J2M3 Jack: 1 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 6 destroyed
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 2 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed
Ki-61-II KAI Tony: 1 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-5 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

why these smileys? Because this is not a combined sweep but nothing else than the usual failed attempt of carrier based ac to escort a LBA strike... what a numerical superiority does in this numbersī game is obvious too, with enough fighters you donīt even have to set them to attack in the stratosphere because the enemy runs out of the dive at some point if you heavily outnumber him as this is what happened here... donīt have to comment the losses I guess...


Aircraft Attacking:
16 x F6F-3 Hellcat sweeping at 20000 feet
18 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 20000 feet
17 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 20000 feet
19 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 20000 feet
20 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
19 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 30000 feet
16 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 25000 feet
18 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 30000 feet
14 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 25000 feet
15 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 25000 feet
10 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 30000 feet



CAP engaged:
S-302 Kokutai with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 41010 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
S-316 Hikotai with A6M5b Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
S-309 Hikotai with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38500 , scrambling fighters to 22000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
S-401 Hikotai with N1K1-J George (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 4 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 41010 , scrambling fighters between 17000 and 41000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
S-407 Hikotai with J2M3 Jack (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 38380 , scrambling fighters to 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 13 minutes
18th Sentai with Ki-61-II KAI Tony (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 35090 , scrambling fighters to 23000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
33rd Sentai with Ki-43-IIIa Oscar (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 3 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 37400 , scrambling fighters between 23000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
59th Sentai with Ki-44-IIc Tojo (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 2 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
73rd Sentai with Ki-84a Frank (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34440 , scrambling fighters to 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 34,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 1



Allied aircraft
F6F-5 Hellcat x 27


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 1 destroyed




Aircraft Attacking:
20 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 30000 feet
7 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 25000 feet

CAP engaged:
33rd Sentai with Ki-43-IIIa Oscar (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 37400
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 43 NM, estimated altitude 31,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes


Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 20


No Allied losses



Aircraft Attacking:
20 x F6F-3 Hellcat sweeping at 30000 feet

lots more failed escorts...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 160 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 55 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft
B-24J Liberator x 67
B-25H Mitchell x 44
F4U-1A Corsair x 31
F4U-1D Corsair x 56


Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 2 destroyed on ground
N1K1-J George: 6 destroyed on ground
Ki-61-II KAI Tony: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar: 3 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-84a Frank: 2 destroyed on ground
A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5 Zero: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-24J Liberator: 9 damaged
B-25H Mitchell: 2 damaged



Airbase hits 14
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 235

and then the bombers show up with land based escorts, all bombers set to nav attack/airfield attack and it worked quite well today... it seems lots of what has been damaged yesterday or in the morning is now destroyed on the ground...


Aircraft Attacking:
16 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-25H Mitchell bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x B-25H Mitchell bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
16 x B-25H Mitchell bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 500 lb GP Bomb
9 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x F4U-1D Corsair sweeping at 25000 feet



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 33
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/15/2012 5:21:24 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4526
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Maybe. Maybe not. This is getting boring fast.

You sell another tidbit of combat report on exactly the same day as fighter sweep.

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Oct 03, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Manila , at 79,77

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 14 NM, estimated altitude 27,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 13
A6M5b Zero x 13
J2M3 Jack x 15
N1K1-J George x 24
Ki-43-IIIa Oscar x 8
Ki-44-IIc Tojo x 25
Ki-61-II KAI Tony x 7
Ki-84a Frank x 13



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 20


Japanese aircraft losses
J2M3 Jack: 2 destroyed
N1K1-J George: 1 destroyed
Ki-44-IIc Tojo: 4 destroyed
Ki-84a Frank: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1A Corsair: 3 destroyed

I wasnīt quite sure how the situation will be over Manila after yesterdayīs bombings, thought the chances would be 50:50 to see enemy aircraft and while there werenīt as many as yesterday there was still formidable resistance... hard to tell how many leaked in from Clark and how many were still coming from Manila... ordered a lot of squadrons to sweep again of course, doing it in the same way as usual but at least the Corsairs are the ones to show up first as these are my second best fighters right after the Thuds...



After that 10 combat reports you dub as sweeps, then something that looks nearly the same you say its failed escorts. Whatever...

Personally I think that you had no idea anymore what was sweep, escort or leaky CAP, and whom escorted what - with a couple of hundreds of planes in the
air from different origin, and it just might be that the game engine didnīt know either. Not that I care...

Since its a sweep against a land base, probably with dozens of squads having targets set, it has nothing to do with the original topic anyway.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/15/2012 5:22:02 PM >


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 34
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/15/2012 7:01:31 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12262
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
lol, that post clearly showed me that you must be either totally ignorant or fail to read what I write, guess it's the first one because otherwhise you would get it by now.

I didn't know what was going on? Really? I didn't know what was going on in my PBEM? Yes, but you probably do?

I can surely tell you that this strike

Aircraft Attacking:
16 x F6F-3 Hellcat sweeping at 20000 feet
18 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 20000 feet
17 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 20000 feet
19 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 20000 feet
20 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 20000 feet
19 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 30000 feet
16 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 25000 feet
18 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 30000 feet
14 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 25000 feet
15 x F4U-1A Corsair sweeping at 25000 feet
10 x F6F-5 Hellcat sweeping at 30000 feet



was coming from my CV TF because I know where my strikes are coming from. If someone doesn't know what is going on in the game then it's you because you don't even believe ppl when they actually support their claims with an ingame example (something I have never seen in your game, other than you using strato sweeps - after years of debating them, lol). Wonder if we really have to go through all the different times again when and who was wrong in the past years.

And to disregard the whole thing, heck, sure, it is a sweep against a land based target. Lol, this means it can't happen against a nav target and me saying I had it happen often enough of course doesn't mean anything for you, while you can't show anything at all, other than false assumptions of what is going on in the game, for a repeated time.

But hey, Mr. I know it better without showing anything even once can surely tell everyone here how Mr. dumbass showing an example was able to order a sweep from whereever it came from, that consisted of 194 fighters in one strike. And funnily, those are all CV type fighters? Can't be that those were all on escort, trying to escort an LBA strike which they 100% of the time miss, ending up sweeping the target (no matter if land or naval), doing this at the altitude they were set to escort/Cap and NOT at 2k above the bombers as Mr. I know it better seems to think (wrongly once more).

Now ppl can either believe me, take that example here (if necessary they can look at the last 15 pages of my AAR against Rainer79 that shows dozens of those examples with SCREENS!) or they can believe Mr. I think I know what is going on.

I can sure tell you, you may think you know what is going on, but you sure got no clue and that's the real pity, you don't get it, not even if one presents it right in front of you.

Fighters that are set to escort and miss the bombers are on sweep as a result and they sweep both land AND naval targets and that's the only way to sweep a CV TF or any other naval target. Get it, fine with me, don't get it, stay uninformed.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 11/15/2012 7:04:51 PM >


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(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 35
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/16/2012 6:30:10 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 2377
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: online
Okay folks - enough of the gibes at each other. It's ok to have differing opinions of what is causing strange results - the game doesn't make it clear so we give our best guess, which sometimes fits what we see subsequently and occasionally does not. Keep doing whatever works for you!

Spruance - I am not greatly experienced in the air combat model but my observations say that having too great a radius for your CAP can have them off many hexes away when the enemy arrives. E.g. if the range set is 3 hexes [the 111 mile detection range was about 2.5 hexes], and the CAP spreads itself around, some of them will be 3 hexes the WRONG DIRECTION from the enemy approach, or about 5.5 hexes from point of detection. They are not going to get back in time to intercept. I usually restrict my CAP to 1 hex radius to give time to intercept before the enemy arrives in my TF/base hex. What range setting were you using?

_____________________________

I have not yet begun to fight! OTOH I have not yet begun to flee. Hmmmmm - choices, choices -always with the choices.

(in reply to AdmSpruance)
Post #: 36
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/16/2012 7:05:34 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4526
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Good point BBfanboy. For the same reason - when I want point defense CAP over a TF in the same hex as the flight deck - I reduce the range to 0-1 (more often 1) as well.
With a higher range setting you often see CV born CAP defending against an attacks 2-3 hexes away or doing other strange things.

This is often the problem for carrier born fighter settings, if you want to cover both defensive and offensive tasks. You need to set the range to match the strike
a/c setting, but by doing so you spread the CAP umbrella unneccesarily.

In confined waters with many bases and lots of air action this often leads to a thinned out CAP over the primary target, and lots of fighters in many places.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 37
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/16/2012 7:20:51 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4520
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
Iīm not trying to get into the argument here but rather let AdmSpruance know I also have had some very "unlikely" outcomes with CAP lately. CAP seems almost useless right now and I have had very small strikes penetrate huge CAP on several occasions now.

I do think something is not working as it should be. I have no clue what is wrong at all but a hunch says it has to do with intercept times and/or detection ranges.

quote:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Portland Roads at 91,132

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 107 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 6
D4Y1 Judy x 43



Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 19
P-38G Lightning x 64
P-38H Lightning x 53
P-39D Airacobra x 13
P-39N1 Airacobra x 26
P-40K Warhawk x 33
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 18


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 8 destroyed, 7 damaged
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
LCT-364
AM Junee, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
LST-22, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
LST-19
AM Jan van Amstel, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
LST-20
AM Stawell, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
LST-17, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires



Aircraft Attacking:
5 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 1000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 2000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy releasing from 3000' *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.75 Sqn RAAF with Spitfire Vc Trop (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
No.54 Sqn RAF with Spitfire Vc Trop (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
318th FG/19th FS with P-40K Warhawk (4 airborne, 11 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
8th FG/36th FS with P-39N1 Airacobra (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
35th FG/39th FS with P-38H Lightning (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
17 planes vectored on to bombers
35th FG/40th FS with P-38G Lightning (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
17 planes vectored on to bombers
35th FG/41st FS with P-38G Lightning (0 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers
18th FG/44th FS with P-38H Lightning (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
18 planes vectored on to bombers
347th FG/67th FS with P-38H Lightning (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers
347th FG/68th FS with P-39N1 Airacobra (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 15000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers
318th FG/73rd FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 33000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 33000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
18 planes vectored on to bombers
18th FG/78th FS with P-38G Lightning (4 airborne, 10 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
15 planes vectored on to bombers
8th FG/80th FS with P-38G Lightning (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 31000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 31000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
14 planes vectored on to bombers
347th FG/339th FS with P-40K Warhawk (4 airborne, 12 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
475th FG/432nd FS with P-39D Airacobra (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 14000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes
12 planes vectored on to bombers


You guys can probably look at the report and tell me why his unescorted bomber slipped through for the millionth time. I donīt really find that discussion relevant. This is my reasoning:
This strike took place over the biggest airfield in the world. Its a size 9 AF with two AirHQs and some 500 AS. I have 500 fighters there. There must be some 30-60 radars in the base. This is September 1943. You can argue on the technical aspects this but I donīt think ANYONE thinks this even remotely plausible given the place and time?

Why does it take 30 minutes for a big chunk of my planes to reach intercept? I have told my planes by setting CAP to 50%: "Half of you protect my base from enemy airplanes". That is all I can do? I think I should then be able to actually have that happen? As it is now it looks like 5% of the 50% are protecting the base while the rest of the 50% are sitting on "standby" with no realistic possibility whatsoever to intercept something.

Why does some groups with a 50% CAP setting have 0 planes in the air?

I can see it takes quiet some time to get from the ground up to 31K. And why are they trying to get to 31K in the first place? The raid is at 16K. Do they have to go to 31K first and then dive to 16K?

Why doesnīt my overhead CAP already at 31K just dive down to 16K?

And again, my biggest issue: If I tell 50% of my planes to protect my base they should. If setting a CAP of 50% means that only 5% of the planes are airborne and the rest have absolutely NO chance to intercept any incoming strike something is wrong. If I want 5% of my planes to be able to intercept a strike I will set it to 5%. If I want 50% to be able to intercept a incoming strike I will set 50%...

When I look at the combat reports I constantly see detection times very, very close to the intercept times and that kind of explains why the IJ strikes continue to slip through any kind of CAP time and time again. Why is that? Arnīt the allies equipped with the best radars in the world? And the IJ really crappy ones or none at all?


quote:

CAP engaged:
Sasebo Ku S-1 with N1K1-J George (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
7 planes vectored on to bombers
Soryu-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
Junyo-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
10 planes vectored on to bombers
Shoho-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
Hosho-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(11 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 11 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
11 planes vectored on to bombers
958 Ku T-2 with A6M5 Zero (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(15 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
Kaga-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
Zuiho-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 18 on standby, 3 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
25 planes vectored on to bombers
958 Ku T-1 with A6M5 Zero (0 airborne, 12 on standby, 2 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 19000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
16 planes vectored on to bombers


Intercept time of 3-10 minutes? I donīt think I have EVER had that as the allies...

As I said Iīm not sure that any discussion about the mechanics of it is relevant. By looking at the end results its obvious something is wrong because the results are clearly not connected to any kind of historical results. Hence I think one can draw the conclusion that somewhere in the mechanics something should be changed?

Sorry if Iīm sounding grumpy. I am. "Someone" in the household decided she didnīt need to sleep tonight...









(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 38
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/16/2012 9:43:55 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4526
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Hi JocMeister, even when taking the Lightnings at 31k from the equatation you still should have a nice ammount of Warhawks and Airacobras at reasonable
available for intercept.

It is difficult to analyse as a separate event without knowing the context of the attack. Just a few questions:

- are you playing with the latest beta, another beta version or the last official patch?
- was this the only attack, or is it a snippet from a larger one?
- what was the setting of your other 50%? Were they set to rest or assigned to escort
- what was the range setting of your fighters?
- did you, besides defending fly strikes which were escorted by the same squads also assigned to defense?
- where there any other targets in vincinity also under attack, maybe in a different hex?
- do you have an estimate of plane availability and airframe fatigue at the time of the attack?


On first observation there are a couple of things to note:

Again, one can discuss the realism of this, but CAP set at high alt has significant problems to reach bombers arriving 10k or more below the CAP
altitude. This is not only for planes already airborne, but also for scramblimg fighters, as they get vectored to a spread alt up to the maximum you assigned.
They only react in adapmtin their altitude when making contact (I am not referring to initial radar detection but visual contact) with the incoming strike.
By setting CAP so high you often prevent visual contact, and your fighters are not even in position to engage. So much for the Lightnings and TBolts.

Players can l ike it or not, I like it because it enriches the tactical variety, but like it or not, it is how the game engine treats these engagements.
This is extremely easy to replicate and has been proven over and over again. Also, it is this way since intitial release and has nothing to do with any recent
patches.

The second thing is, you got other fighter which are in a much better position to attack. Severe Storms has an impact on the ability of those to make
contact with the raid.

Adding to that the remaining fighters, except for the Spitfires, are 1st generation types who have 2 drawbacks in the situation: they are much worse fighters
than the 2nd generation Zero escorts, but more important, the Judy is a very fast plane. I think that the Judys speed was another factor which resulted
in a low intercept.

The CR does not tell more than that, but my prediction would be that simply setting the high alt CAP down to staggered altitudes slightly above the strikers,
you would achive a much better result.

I note that the hit percentage is very high for severe storms, but that is a known problem.


Understanding the game engine is not very hard, but often there are many components playing together to produce the results you see.
The denser the enviroment, and the more complex the setup, the harder it is to separate the root causes of events often displayed together
in single combat animatons.


< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/16/2012 9:57:29 AM >


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 39
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/16/2012 10:36:50 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4520
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
Morning Lo Baron. Thank you for taking the time to respond! Iīll try to respond in turn as good as I can!

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
It is difficult to analyse as a separate event without knowing the context of the attack. Just a few questions:
- are you playing with the latest beta, another beta version or the last official patch?


We are playing with the latest official.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
- was this the only attack, or is it a snippet from a larger one?


This was the only attack during the turn that effected any of the groups stationed at PR!

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
- what was the setting of your other 50%? Were they set to rest or assigned to escort
- what was the range setting of your fighters?


It might have been different for one or two groups but most of them would have 50-70% CAP, 0-30% Rest and Range: 0
Groups set to escort did not have a CAP setting (ie. CAP 0%). I do this to avoid fatigue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
- did you, besides defending fly strikes which were escorted by the same squads also assigned to defense?
- where there any other targets in vincinity also under attack, maybe in a different hex?


Not during that turn.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
- do you have an estimate of plane availability and airframe fatigue at the time of the attack?


No sorry! I would say that roughly 500 fighters was available and ready to fly missions. That would be consistent with the roughly 220 planes listed in the CR.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
On first observation there are a couple of things to note:

Again, one can discuss the realism of this, but CAP set at high alt has significant problems to reach bombers arriving 10k or more below the CAP
altitude. This is not only for planes already airborne, but also for scramblimg fighters, as they get vectored to a spread alt up to the maximum you assigned.
They only react in adapmtin their altitude when making contact (I am not referring to initial radar detection but visual contact) with the incoming strike.
By setting CAP so high you often prevent visual contact, and your fighters are not even in position to engage. So much for the Lightnings and TBolts.

Players can l ike it or not, I like it because it enriches the tactical variety, but like it or not, it is how the game engine treats these engagements.
This is extremely easy to replicate and has been proven over and over again.

The second thing is, you got other fighter which are in a much better position to attack. Severe Storms has an impact on the ability of those to make
contact with the raid.

Adding to that the remaining fighters, except for the Spitfires, are 1st generation types who have 2 drawbacks in the situation: they are much worse fighters
than the 2nd generation Zero escorts, but more important, the Judy is a very fast plane. I think that the Judys speed was another factor which resulted
in a low intercept.

The CR does not tell more than that, but my prediction would be that simply setting the high alt CAP down to staggered altitudes slightly above the strikers,
you would achive a much better result.

I note that the hit percentage is very high for severe storms, but that is a known problem.


Understanding the game engine is not very hard, but often there are many components playing together to produce the results you see.
The denser the enviroment, and the more complex the setup, the harder it is to separate the root causes of events often displayed together
in single combat animatons.


I agree that realism in this can certainly be discussed. So Iīll leave it at that! But this greatly favors the attacker. If you set your CAP up low to protect shipping/ground troops you can get skewered by sweeps and if you set it high bombers always get through virtually unmolested. If you set them up both ways you are toast either way. I think some tweaking in this regard could be in order. This happened to me just a few turns ago when I had lowered all my CAP to 15K in order to protect some shipping at Terapo. Erik then swept Terapo at high altitude (31K) and of course got the insanely powerful dive costing me some 15 Hellcats for 2 Tojos.

Also of note here is that the escort only consists of 6 Zeroes so despite the fact that many of the planes in the "low CAP" are older models they should still have been able to inflict some heavy damage on the strike planes.

But I think my main point remains? Iīll simplify to make my point clearer.

-The best possible detection you can get is roughly 30 minutes.
-The time it takes for fighters on CAP duty but sitting on standby to scramble is also roughly 30 minutes.

Isnīt something very obviously wrong here? Since the majority on CAP duty is sitting on standby that actually means that the majority of the CAP have no chance to intercept the incoming strike?

This would be very consistent with what I have seen in my game so far. I regret now that I just recently lost all my combat reports in a disc crash. Would have been very interesting to go back and look at all the other "odd strikes" I have been on the receiving end of.

I still think there might be a problem concerning intercept time and detection time. My gut feeling says that this does not effect the IJ as much/at all. I base this (very loosely Iīll admit) on the fact that my opponent have had a good amount of both escorted and unescorted strikes go in right through the CAP with none to slight losses. I have not had this happen from my side at any time that I can recall.

EDIT: Just pure speculation. Could it be that something is "odd" with allied intercept times? Is 30 minutes from scramble to airborne and at altitude reasonable?

How does it look from the IJ side?
What does the detection time look like from the IJ side?



< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/16/2012 10:44:14 AM >

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 40
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/16/2012 10:58:38 AM   
Puhis

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I still think there might be a problem concerning intercept time and detection time. My gut feeling says that this does not effect the IJ as much/at all. I base this (very loosely Iīll admit) on the fact that my opponent have had a good amount of both escorted and unescorted strikes go in right through the CAP with none to slight losses. I have not had this happen from my side at any time that I can recall.

EDIT: Just pure speculation. Could it be that something is "odd" with allied intercept times? Is 30 minutes from scramble to airborne and at altitude reasonable?

How does it look from the IJ side?
What does the detection time look like from the IJ side?



I'm sure air model is same for both sides. So if your opponent is capable of doing something that you're not, I think it's time to figure out what he is doing differently. Single combat report (or partly combat report) does not say much.

I haven't notice any allied-japan difference in my PBEM game. As IJ player, usually I'm able to intercept my opponent's low flying bombers, but just because my CAP is never flying at stratosphere. Then he might sweep my base, and I loose planes. That's war.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 41
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/16/2012 11:06:04 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4526
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

If you set your CAP up low to protect shipping/ground troops you can get skewered by sweeps and if you set it high bombers always get through virtually unmolested. If you set them up both ways you are toast either way. I think some tweaking in this regard could be in order. This happened to me just a few turns ago when I had lowered all my CAP to 15K in order to protect some shipping at Terapo. Erik then swept Terapo at high altitude (31K) and of course got the insanely powerful dive costing me some 15 Hellcats for 2 Tojos.


The trick of layered CAP is to set up staggered altitudes which are both effective against high alt sweeps and bombing attacks. There are situations
where this is not possible as there are not enoug ressources available, but it is entirely possible when force relations are about equal.
I NEVER set a high percentage of CAP at max alt. You don't need to. hat xou need to do is stagger CAP in layers, so that in case bottom layers are
attacked by sweepers, the result is sweepers initially up high suddently below the higher CAP layers, which then have a chance to perform a diving
attack.

If you set all your planes at an alt band (e.g. 15k) this is obviousely not working. But if you set up multiple layers, space them so that every lower layer
is within reasonable distance from the following top layer, and then cream the whole with a small hinalt CAP of your best altitude interceptors and good
pilots, you have a pretty good chance to pose a threat to sweeps as well as strikes.

The trick is not to do this out of a habit and simply use standard altitudes without paying attention to what the opponent does, but react to opponents setup.
this is also the reason why personally I enjoy this aspect of the game so much. You need to outwit your opponent to remain competetive with your setup.


quote:

Also of note here is that the escort only consists of 6 Zeroes so despite the fact that many of the planes in the "low CAP" are older models they should still have been able to inflict some heavy damage on the strike planes.


Definitely, but ther was not so much CAP to tangle with as well, for reasons I partly understand but am limited in interpretation because I did not see the turn.
It might just have been enough that the Zeros bought enough time for the fast Judys to break through.

quote:

But I think my main point remains? Iīll simplify to make my point clearer.

-The best possible detection you can get is roughly 30 minutes.
-The time it takes for fighters on CAP duty but sitting on standby to scramble is also roughly 30 minutes.

Isnīt something very obviously wrong here? Since the majority on CAP duty is sitting on standby that actually means that the majority of the CAP have no chance to intercept the incoming strike?

This would be very consistent with what I have seen in my game so far. I regret now that I just recently lost all my combat reports in a disc crash. Would have been very interesting to go back and look at all the other "odd strikes" I have been on the receiving end of.

I still think there might be a problem concerning intercept time and detection time. My gut feeling says that this does not effect the IJ as much/at all. I base this (very loosely Iīll admit) on the fact that my opponent have had a good amount of both escorted and unescorted strikes go in right through the CAP with none to slight losses. I have not had this happen from my side at any time that I can recall.


Maybe, but to be honest I have not payed much attention to any relation there. I will look for it in the future.
Note that the time to intercept only tells you about the last fighter able to reach the strike. It does not tell you anything else.
This means that if you got 20 fighters scrambling against an inbound strike, 'time to reach interception is 29' only tells you that this
is when fighter #20 arrived, it could well be that the other 19 were already battling it out 10 mins after detection.

As I said, your main problem still was your best fighterrs up high and so a very low intercept probability.

I case you still got the save from before you can try it out. Set up layers with P39 lowest at about 12k, stagger up slowly by putting the Warhawks a bit
higher, then the Tbolts and the Spits at alts between 15 and 20, and most of the Lightnings at up to 20-25k. If you want to set a few Lightnings as top cover
to simulate expected sweep protection, just to not make the setup unrealistic.

I am pretty sure the strike will get creamed.


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 42
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 2:01:03 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2653
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline
I wonder if that's what is happening with my CAP over some atolls I've captured. I've got P-40K's at 20k feet, and they don't even get one pass at the incoming Bettys before I get the "air to air combat over" notice, every single time. Should I put the fighters at 5-10k feet and see if that works?

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 43
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 3:52:27 AM   
AdmSpruance


Posts: 2355
Joined: 10/29/2004
From: Newport Coast, California
Status: offline
John...I completely agree with you. Whats up with this game design where you put your CAP at 20,000' and you cant intercept an incoming strike at 15,000' with 35 minutes of radar warning, radios and "Fighter Direction Control". If we were talking about Japanese CAP then I would completely understand the inherent inadequacies. For the Allies to suffer from this is absolutely uncomprehensible. If 200 plus fighters cant stop 25 A6M2s and 25 Bettys....what happens when you get a Marianas Turkey Shoot Scenario where over 450 Jap AC are destroyed without the USN carriers getting their paint scratched?

(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 44
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 7:38:26 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4526
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I wonder if that's what is happening with my CAP over some atolls I've captured. I've got P-40K's at 20k feet, and they don't even get one pass at the incoming Bettys before I get the "air to air combat over" notice, every single time. Should I put the fighters at 5-10k feet and see if that works?


No idea John.

Interception with small alt delta as 5k-6k works as a charm for me.

For example, I am defending an atoll for some time already, and a single squad stands against a lot of incoming bombers. Their kill tally says more than enough:





Note that the kills in the first combat report are heavily exaggerated, as you can see when comparing inbound a/c - a/c attacking to
the kill list, but none the less, they are shooting down a lot of planes, exactly with the alt difference you describe.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 12th Marine Defense Battalion, at (---Edited out---)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 114 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 42 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 60



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 8


Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses


Allied ground losses:
41 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Aircraft Attacking:
32 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 14000 feet *
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 14000 feet *
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VMF-216 with F4U-1A Corsair (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 3 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 105th USN Base Force, at (---Edited out---)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 97 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 63



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 7


Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged

No Allied losses


Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
28 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 14000 feet *
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
22 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 14000 feet *
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VMF-216 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes

Also attacking 12th Marine Defense Battalion ...
Also attacking 105th USN Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Marine Defense Battalion ...
Also attacking 105th USN Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Marine Defense Battalion ...


Your problem must be something different.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/18/2012 11:01:15 AM >


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 45
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 8:03:27 AM   
Puhis

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

John...I completely agree with you. Whats up with this game design where you put your CAP at 20,000' and you cant intercept an incoming strike at 15,000' with 35 minutes of radar warning, radios and "Fighter Direction Control". If we were talking about Japanese CAP then I would completely understand the inherent inadequacies. For the Allies to suffer from this is absolutely uncomprehensible. If 200 plus fighters cant stop 25 A6M2s and 25 Bettys....what happens when you get a Marianas Turkey Shoot Scenario where over 450 Jap AC are destroyed without the USN carriers getting their paint scratched?


Allies have no problems of shooting down small Japanese strikes. Here are examples of my latest PBEM turn.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 09, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on TF, near Jaluit at 134,123

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 13
A6M5b Zero x 4
G4M1 Betty x 3



Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10
FM-1 Wildcat x 16
F4U-1 Corsair x 8
F6F-3 Hellcat x 41


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 6 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
FM-1 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
VF-37 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
VF-35 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (2 airborne, 2 on standby, 6 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 45 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-422 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-35 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-37 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
VRF-1F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
10 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-4F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
VRF-5F with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 9 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 3 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-6F with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
VMF-214 with F4U-1 Corsair (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Jaluit at 134,123

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B6N2 Jill x 9

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10
FM-1 Wildcat x 15
F4U-1 Corsair x 6
F6F-3 Hellcat x 31


Japanese aircraft losses
B6N2 Jill: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses


CAP engaged:
VF-35 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
VF-35 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
VF-37 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
VRF-1F with F6F-3 Hellcat (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
VRF-4F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 3000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 122 minutes
VRF-5F with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 3000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 49 minutes
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 3000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
VRF-6F with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 4810.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
VMF-214 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
VMF-422 with F4U-1 Corsair (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Jaluit at 134,123

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 87 NM, estimated altitude 7,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 9
A6M5b Zero x 2
D4Y1 Judy x 3
G4M1 Betty x 10


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 10
FM-1 Wildcat x 15
F4U-1 Corsair x 10
F6F-3 Hellcat x 30


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 5 destroyed
A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 7 destroyed

No Allied losses


CAP engaged:
VF-24 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
VMF-422 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-35 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
VF-37 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
VRF-1F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
VRF-4F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 9 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-5F with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 8 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-22 with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 3 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 35500.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 46 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-6F with F4F-4 Wildcat (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 10 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
10 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-214 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 7 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes



That day allied CAP shot down every single japanese bomber, here is just part of the report.


Air model works certain way, like it or not... If your CAP setting are wrong, why not just change them?

(in reply to AdmSpruance)
Post #: 46
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 8:22:59 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4526
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Which also kinda eliminates JocMeisterīs suspicion regarding any time to target/time to reach interception relation, as in your combat report
those numbers vary highly, Puhis.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 47
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 9:56:55 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4520
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
Well, I have been paying ALOT of attention to this the latest turns. Iīm still getting some 30-35 minute detection time and some 30-35 intercept time. I have never seen such low intercept times as you have Puhis! The lowest intercept time I have had during the last 6 PBEM turns are 10 minutes.

I just had another strike waltz right through the CAP. I think I got 5-6 passes on the bombers before the "air combat is done" appeared. Note the short intercept time here though. All CAP was set at 15K, 0 range except the Corsairs that were on 25k, 0 range.

There are some interesting oddities in this though:

quote:


Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 3,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 36

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 16
Kittyhawk III x 10
F4U-1 Corsair x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 4 destroyed, 23 damaged
G3M3 Nell: 3 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CA Portland
CA Baltimore, Torpedo hits 1
DD McKee
DD Bradford
DD Halford

Aircraft Attacking:
28 x G3M3 Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo

CAP engaged:
VMF-212 with F4U-1 Corsair (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 12 minutes
No.15 Sqn RNZAF with Kittyhawk III (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 2000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes

This looks odd. The raid is detected at 3000ft. Why are the scrambled to 2000?

No.16 Sqn RNZAF with Kittyhawk III (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters to 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes

Why is this group scrambled to 15000?

No.76 Sqn RAAF with Spitfire Vc Trop (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes

Why is this group scrambled to BETWEEN 2000 and 15000?

No.457 Sqn RAF with Spitfire Vc Trop (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 37000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes

And why the HECK is this group scrambled to 2000-37000 (!) Their altitude is 15000 and the incoming strike is STILL AT 3000!


I had 74 Fighters in total at the base. Of those 19 (please correct me if Iīm wrong) had ANY chance at all to intercept the strike. To repeat my earlier gripe. If I say I wanīt 50% of the fighters to protect the base I want 50% of the fighters to have a realistic possibility to intercept the strike.




< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/18/2012 10:13:17 AM >

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 48
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 10:07:56 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4520
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
Here are some more VERY odd instances:


quote:

Raid detected at 19 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes <-- What happened to the radar. It decided to break?

Japanese aircraft
E13A1 Jake x 1
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 18

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 20
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 8
F4U-1 Corsair x 8
F6F-3 Hellcat x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40K Warhawk: 1 destroyed

CAP engaged:
VRF-1F with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 2000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-2F with F4U-1 Corsair (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-3F with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-441 with F6F-3 Hellcat (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 38800. <-- WTH?
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 22 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
318th FG/19th FS with P-40K Warhawk (3 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
10 planes vectored on to bombers
318th FG/73rd FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (2 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 3000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
347th FG/339th FS with P-40K Warhawk (3 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 31 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers


< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/18/2012 10:14:22 AM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 49
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 10:10:39 AM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1862
Joined: 10/22/2008
From: the Netherlands
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: AdmSpruance

John...I completely agree with you. Whats up with this game design where you put your CAP at 20,000' and you cant intercept an incoming strike at 15,000' with 35 minutes of radar warning, radios and "Fighter Direction Control". If we were talking about Japanese CAP then I would completely understand the inherent inadequacies. For the Allies to suffer from this is absolutely uncomprehensible. If 200 plus fighters cant stop 25 A6M2s and 25 Bettys....what happens when you get a Marianas Turkey Shoot Scenario where over 450 Jap AC are destroyed without the USN carriers getting their paint scratched?


I am pretty sure you would get good results vs 35 experience/ 35 skill pilots in a MTS scenario. That is another big difference. Japanese pilots in most PBEMs are well trained..

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
Ŋ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to AdmSpruance)
Post #: 50
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 10:11:20 AM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4520
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
Another one... Look at the intercept times. They are nowhere near what Puhis is getting!

quote:

Raid detected at 111 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 3
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 41
Ki-49-Ia Helen x 13
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 23



Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 20
F4U-1 Corsair x 24
F6F-3 Hellcat x 49


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 4 destroyed
Ki-49-Ia Helen: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 4 destroyed

No Allied losses


Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 14

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x Ki-49-IIa Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x Ki-49-Ia Helen bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VRF-1F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 14 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-2F with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 13 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 25000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VRF-3F with F6F-3 Hellcat (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 12 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
318th FG/73rd FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 10 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers



After spending a lot more attention to this Iīm even more convinced then ever that something is not working as it should be. Whenever I see an enemy strike I just KNOW it will get through. It doesnīt matter if I have 500 planes on CAP. I will get a few shots off at the bombers before the air combat is done message is shown at best.

Should a 36 unescorted Netty strike be able to penetrate a 75 fighter CAP over an allied base with radar in mid 43? Perhaps given good rolls of the dice on rare occasion. But this should certainly NOT be the norm as it is now.



< Message edited by JocMeister -- 11/18/2012 10:21:13 AM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 51
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 10:18:17 AM   
AdmSpruance


Posts: 2355
Joined: 10/29/2004
From: Newport Coast, California
Status: offline
Sorry Puhis....If I have 120 fighters CAPing at 20,000' down to 9000' they should be able to take care of 15 A6M2s and 50 Bettys at 15,000'. So dont say there's no problem with the Allies shooting down small Japanese airstrikes....thats what started this thread in the first place. And the air model is not working in a certain way.....it certainly isnt working period.

< Message edited by AdmSpruance -- 11/18/2012 10:19:36 AM >

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 52
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 10:28:42 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4526
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
TBH I have no idea on the last one (the one scrambling to 37k).

On the others: I think that this is related to the timespan the fighters are scrambled in and the DL of the strike + FOW.
The DL significantly increases at the moment the first units make visual contact with the strike.

The spread tells you something about when the first planes of the squad made contact with the strike and when the last plane entered combat,
and how the information about the inbound strike varied over that timespan and was relayed to the other planes of the squadron.

If a plane of a certain squadron already made contact, the chance for the scrambling fighters of that squad to be directed at remotely the
correct inbound alt is significantly higher.

In your case this suggests that a No. 15 Sqn fighter was the first to reach interception point (not counting in VMF-212 which did not scramble any fighters),
so the rest immediately was scrambled to reported contact alt of that first fighter.

On the contrary No. 16 Sqn did not make contact until late in the fight, if it made contact with the raid at all, so it was solely scrambled to preset CAP alt.

No. 76 Sqn scrambled a couple of fighters before contact was made, and some after contact was made by other 76 Sqn elements, this why you get the between.


It really is that easy to explain.





If you want set 50% of the fighters to CAP and expect 50% to participate in an intercept, you got the wrong expectations. CAP is usually a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 op at best.
1/3 of planes on station or ready to scramble, 1/3 rearming/refuelling/on standby, 1/3 serviced, repaired or out of action for different reasons, or just RTB.

If you set 50% of your fighters on CAP, expect about 15-20% of total squadron strenght available for immediate action against an inbound strike, the rest in varying levels
of readiness and their participation higly dependent on detenction range, service leve, general fatigue, pilot count and the likes.




You got 15mins detection time on this attack btw, not 30-35. Also you again got more that a 10k delta between the inbound strike and the CAP alt. With 15k you got no protection
against sea skimmers. Theres no difference between showing a combat report with a 15k strike and a 31k CAP and a combat report showing a 3k strike and a 15k CAP. Both CAP
alts are suboptiomal for successful intercept.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 53
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 11:50:09 AM   
Puhis

 

Posts: 1688
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline
JocMeister, I don't see any odd with your examples. IMO your expectations are unreasonable, maybe because you have frustrated with your PBEM game.

For example this:

Raid detected at 19 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes <-- What happened to the radar. It decided to break?

Japanese aircraft
E13A1 Jake x 1
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 18

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 20
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 8
F4U-1 Corsair x 8
F6F-3 Hellcat x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
E13A1 Jake: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-40K Warhawk: 1 destroyed



You got bad detection range, because there was just 19 Japanese planes flying very low (probably at 1000 feet). You still got almost half of Japanese planes. IMO no need to complain.

On the other hand this example:

Raid detected at 111 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
N1K1-J George x 3
Ki-43-IIb Oscar x 41
Ki-49-Ia Helen x 13
Ki-49-IIa Helen x 23



Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 20
F4U-1 Corsair x 24
F6F-3 Hellcat x 49


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-43-IIb Oscar: 4 destroyed
Ki-49-Ia Helen: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-49-IIa Helen: 4 destroyed

No Allied losses


Allied ground losses:
4 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Airbase hits 1
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 14

Aircraft Attacking:
17 x Ki-49-IIa Helen bombing from 10000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x Ki-49-Ia Helen bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb



Japan lost at least 10 out of 36 bombers, even when they had decent number of escorts. You didn't loose any planes. I don't see anything odd with that, actually I think that's quite reasonable outcome. Definitely unsustainable losses for Japan.


But if you're convinced that air model is not working, maybe you should report a bug.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 54
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 12:00:40 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6098
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
I'm sorry to say it Joc, but i agree with the others. There's nothing wrong with the CAP as it stands right now (well, a part from the 200 firing passes, but that's another thing). CAP isn't a SHIELD. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't (weather, detection, altitude gap etc), but i don't see anything wrong with your results.

And, another thing, once the fighters manage to get to the bombers they destroy the cohesion of the strike, so even if they do not shoot down all of them (wouldn't be realistic with these numbers), the strike will lose its pounch and the objective of the CAP would be achieved

(in reply to Puhis)
Post #: 55
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 12:28:57 PM   
JocMeister

 

Posts: 4520
Joined: 7/29/2009
From: Sweden
Status: online
Puhis, Iīm not questioning the results. Well a little... but the number of CAP planes that have a possibility to reach interception. As I see it and have tried to explain its a too small portion of aircraft assigned to CAP that has a chance of intercepting.

Looking at the numbers some of the planes have an intercept time well after the raid has passed. What I think is wrong is very simple. If I as the player assign 50% of the airplanes on CAP 50% SHOULD have at least a possibility to intercept any incoming strikes. If what Lo Baron writes is correct and only a 1/3rd of those 50% can possible intercept a strike then the game should let you as a player know that.

Besides that I think its pretty obviuos something in not working correctly
Why for example is the game sending some of my fighters up to maximum altitude when the raid is at 2000ft?

quote:


Raid detected at 19 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 38800. <-- WTH?


Thats just one of the odd things. On almost all combat reports I have looked at the game scrambles fighters to a completely different altitude then where the raid is detected. Why is that and why are you so adamant that this is not something wrong?

(in reply to GreyJoy)
Post #: 56
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 12:49:54 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4526
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister
If what Lo Baron writes is correct and only a 1/3rd of those 50% can possible intercept a strike then the game should let you as a player know that.


Please reread what I tried to explain. I never said that only 1/3rd can possibly intercept a strike. I explained how a normal CAP schedule is supposed to work - in reality as well as in game -
and why this makes any expectation, that the full complement of planes assigned to CAP is able to immediately react to bandits, unrealistic:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
If you set 50% of your fighters on CAP, expect about 15-20% of total squadron strenght available for immediate action against an inbound strike, the rest in varying levels
of readiness and their participation higly dependent on detenction range, service leve, general fatigue, pilot count and the likes.



I was referring to a specific moment, that this picture changes over time, since time passes from initial strike detection to ToT, depending on a multitude of variables it is entirely
possible to bring more fighters to intercept position.

I always assumed that this needs no explicite mention, thats simply how organizing CAP over a day works. For a wargaming community it should be common knowledge,
or if not, asked one time and then understood.


quote:

Besides that I think its pretty obviuos something in not working correctly
Why for example is the game sending some of my fighters up to maximum altitude when the raid is at 2000ft?

quote:


Raid detected at 19 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters to 38800. <-- WTH?


Thats just one of the odd things. On almost all combat reports I have looked at the game scrambles fighters to a completely different altitude then where the raid is detected. Why is that and why are you so adamant that this is not something wrong?


As I said, the scramble to max alt is the only thing I find difficult to understand on your reports, not that this severely impacts the overall picture.
This still does not automatically mean that is is wrong, just that I do not have an explanation at hand.

I donīt think Puhis or me are adamant that nothing is wrong. We just understand how the air model works, or at least better than average, and try to help others in understanding it
as well.

I will certainly not engage in a discussion which basically comes down to "it is borked" vs. "no it is not". If you want to insist that something is wrong, please feel free to do so,
although I assumed you wanted an explanation and to learn something about the air model.

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/18/2012 12:51:40 PM >


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 57
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 12:56:01 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3633
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
JocMeister,

You have been given good answers by some quite experienced players. I won't bother because unlike them if I tried to explain the results I would have to point out your complete and utter lack of understanding of what you are doing. Read page 162 and 164 of the manual. Then actually look at what is being "targetted" and realise that it is not what you keep on saying is being "targetted". But doing just these preliminary steps would require you to eat humble pie and admit just how stupid these words of your's from post #38 really are when you dismiss a priori the explanation.

You guys can probably look at the report and tell me why his unescorted bomber slipped through for the millionth time. I donīt really find that discussion relevant. This is my reasoning:
This strike took place over the biggest airfield in the world. Its a size 9 AF with two AirHQs and some 500 AS. I have 500 fighters there. There must be some 30-60 radars in the base. This is September 1943. You can argue on the technical aspects this but I donīt think ANYONE thinks this even remotely plausible given the place and time?


Your reasoning is simply totally wrong. But heck you must be right, the problem must lie with the game, which is why you keep on pestering michaelm in the tech sub forum. Your own actions simply could not be a factor in the results you are seeing.

Alfred

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 58
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 1:08:09 PM   
GreyJoy


Posts: 6098
Joined: 3/18/2011
Status: offline
Joc, believe me: liste to LoBaron and Puhis. They do know what they are talking about.

When, against Rader, i lost nearly 25 CVs+30 CVEs in a single turn because my CAP of 2500 fighters didnd't act as i tought, LoBaron, along with others explained it to me and, despite i was mad about it, after several days of explanations, i realized I was the one who was doing it wrong, not the code.

Yes, there was the 200 firing passage problem, but my settings weren't optimal but, above all, my expectations weren't right.


(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 59
RE: WHAT HAPPENED TO CAP IN v1.06.1108r9 - 11/18/2012 1:24:58 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 12262
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I wonder if that's what is happening with my CAP over some atolls I've captured. I've got P-40K's at 20k feet, and they don't even get one pass at the incoming Bettys before I get the "air to air combat over" notice, every single time. Should I put the fighters at 5-10k feet and see if that works?


No idea John.

Interception with small alt delta as 5k-6k works as a charm for me.

For example, I am defending an atoll for some time already, and a single squad stands against a lot of incoming bombers. Their kill tally says more than enough:





Note that the kills in the first combat report are heavily exaggerated, as you can see when comparing inbound a/c - a/c attacking to
the kill list, but none the less, they are shooting down a lot of planes, exactly with the alt difference you describe.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 12th Marine Defense Battalion, at (---Edited out---)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 114 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 42 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 60



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 8


Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 6 destroyed

No Allied losses


Allied ground losses:
41 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Aircraft Attacking:
32 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 14000 feet *
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
27 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 14000 feet *
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VMF-216 with F4U-1A Corsair (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 3 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters to 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 105th USN Base Force, at (---Edited out---)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 97 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 36 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M3 Nell x 63



Allied aircraft
F4U-1A Corsair x 7


Japanese aircraft losses
G3M3 Nell: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged

No Allied losses


Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Aircraft Attacking:
28 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 14000 feet *
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
22 x G3M3 Nell bombing from 14000 feet *
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VMF-216 with F4U-1A Corsair (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 9000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes

Also attacking 12th Marine Defense Battalion ...
Also attacking 105th USN Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Marine Defense Battalion ...
Also attacking 105th USN Base Force ...
Also attacking 12th Marine Defense Battalion ...


Your problem must be something different.




It works like a charm? According to the two combats you post you shot down ONE Nell out of 60 in the first combat before they released their bombs (the rest obviously afterwards) and in the second combat you shot down THREE bombers before they attacked the target. Both of your examples support the op point of view, not yours actually. In both cases you had far over 30 min pre warning time and both times the pre warning times were higher than the time it takes ALL of your fighters to intercept the bombers. Doesn't look like a good result to me at all. Surely not a fantasy result like the op's one but especially the first combat is an absolutely poor result when it comes down to attacking the incoming strike BEFORE it actually attacks the target, when you see 59 out of 60 bombers bombing the target. I wouldn't care about my bombers being shot down AFTER they sank the enemy's carriers, you have to shoot them down before your ships go down.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 11/18/2012 1:27:10 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to LoBaron)
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