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RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now.

 
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RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 11/15/2012 7:28:42 PM   
Crackaces


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Enclosed is an example of an atoll invasion in my most recent affair. Only 50% prep and disruption of my forces around 50% with fatgue vs. an IJA naval guard unit, a BF, and a coastal defense fort. The units are at fort level 4 I have an unadjusted AV of 91 .. so why are the IJA wiped out ???.. Dive Bombers, 2E's, and 4E's raining hell for 5 days. The enemy are more disrupted and disabled then my forces ... out of 90 Inf squads 40 of my boys are disabled .. the entire IJA are either disrupted or disabled in 5 horrific air attacks .. 5BB's and 4 CA's helped finish off any survivors on the first wave ..

Want to hit an atoll? Preperation through relentless air attacks ....




BTW) I have discovered that patroling in the same hex as the target in the priot turn, and then offloading in the first phase before naval movement provides one more phase to get stuff off before the impending shock attack at the end of the turn .. just a thought .. there is a risk of getting smacked by a submarine while patrolling but it does get extra stuff off at once ..

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< Message edited by Crackaces -- 11/15/2012 7:31:22 PM >


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Post #: 31
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 8:43:58 AM   
JocMeister

 

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So. In about a month or so I´ll be ready to go for Canton again! Hopefully with some help I can actually pull it off this time!

These are the forces ready for the task:
2 Marine RGT
2 Tank BTL
2 Combat Engineer RGTs

All 100% prepped.
3 Slow BBs and 4 CAs. Some 300 Carrier based planes NOT trained at all in ground attack.

So how should I set the landings up. I will try and make sure I work over Canton A LOT more then last time. And I will also use the CV based bombers to help out with this. The bombardment TFs will have to go to Christmas to replenish though. Thats 44 hexes back and forth. How many runs would you guys consider needed?

The landing itself? What would be the optimal order to land?
Any advice is very welcome!

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Post #: 32
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 9:22:40 AM   
jmalter

 

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i'll second what crackaces suggested - run your AmphTF at mission or cruise speed into the target hex, set to 'do not unload', then switch to full speed / unload / do not retire for the next turn. that way you get the full effect of 4 unloading phases to get as many of your guys ashore as possible before the land-combat phase.

similarly, your BombTF should be a SurfTF at cruise speed during the approach, then switch it to BombTF at full speed / do not retire for the invasion turn, to maximize time on the firing line. don't forget to switch the flagship's float-planes to night recon of the target hex. switch back to cruise speed for the run back to replenish.

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Post #: 33
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 11:39:13 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter
then switch to full speed / unload / do not retire for the next turn.


Whats the benefit of setting an amphib TF to full speed? Except maybe posing a less juicy target for subs and eating
up fuel at quadruple rate?

Unloading has nothing to do with TF speed, and the TF is already in the hex, correct?

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Post #: 34
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 2:27:13 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter
then switch to full speed / unload / do not retire for the next turn.


Whats the benefit of setting an amphib TF to full speed? Except maybe posing a less juicy target for subs and eating
up fuel at quadruple rate?

Unloading has nothing to do with TF speed, and the TF is already in the hex, correct?

Correct - also there will only be two unloading phases, not four. Each navel movement phase allows unloading, which can be partial if the TF is interrupted by, say, approaching enemy warships.

One old practice is to stop 1 hex away in a hex with no land whatsoever. Then move that last hex (at normal speed, not full speed) with Unload settings on the invasion turn. This was because of bugs where some troops would begin unloading in spite of the Do Not Unload setting if they were in a hex with land (your intended target or not). Of course those few troops always got trashed in the shock attack. I have not heard of that happening in a long time so Michael might have found it and fixed it quite some time ago.

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Post #: 35
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 2:37:53 PM   
Retlaw

 

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Since Canton is defended ,have you considered setting up one of the nearby atolls as a quick fighter base(yes they are 0 dots but if you can put 200 engineers on them you can build a quick fighter base) to allow you to cover and/or attack Canton??? A good use for all those Seabee and forward base units you get in DaBigBabes.
In several RL attacks in WW2 the navy once it had secured local sea and air control, setup quick bases on nearby undefended atolls to pound the target atoll this was to release the carrier TF's from being tied to the beach invasions for a long time,making them a prime target for subs and enemy carriers,plus a atoll cannot sink!

< Message edited by Retlaw -- 12/8/2012 2:46:46 PM >

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Post #: 36
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 3:07:55 PM   
JocMeister

 

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I have found so far that unloading with APAs/AKAs isn´t any problem at all! I had no problems dumping 2 divisions + 1 tank BTL and a HQ over just two phases. Just make sure to load supply separately in another TF or it will be problems!

My main concern is actually what to bring in the first wave? Should I bring it all or leave some for reserve. Last try I brought 2 Tank BTL and a Engineer and Marine RGMT each. Is this a good setup or should I swap a Tank BTL for a USMC RGMT? What to do with the "extra" Engineer RGT?

Retlaw, Its a good idea but and given more time I would certainly do what you suggest. But I will bring the CVE fleet with me to cover the actual invasion thus freeing the CVs for ground strikes!

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Post #: 37
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 3:10:38 PM   
witpqs


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I guess I still stand by this.
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Hey guys.

Thank you all for the advice and input. Sorry for being so slow to respond. This being a daddy thing certainly takes a lot more time then I could ever have anticipated!

To sum it up I did the following errors:
Not enough pre bombardment by far.
Not enough troops. (I had an additional USMC RGMT loaded on a assault ships but when my AV in the first wave went down to 32 I kind of had to bug out. I was afraid landing another wave would have triggered an additional SA?)

I have troops prepped for Baker in fact and I´m thinking of trying again. CENTPAC is a sideshow in our game anyway and since I have troops I might as well practice!

For Baker I have the following forces 100% prepped
3 Marine RGMT
1 Tank BTL

So no engineers and no HQs prepped... Is there any point in trying at all? And if so how should I go about it? Obviously I would try to work over the base a lot more then just the night before this time. Both by sea and air.



My suggestion:
Land 2 Marine Rgts and the Tank Bn. Have the other Marine Rgt standing by for a second day landing. If possible, have at least a few empty ships along for that second day evac.

On day 1 it is quite likely that 1 Rgt will be mostly trashed. Evac it and simultaneously land the backup Rgt.

Note Well: Do not shock attack. Your units will make a required shock attack upon landing. If a unit takes two days to land, it will also shock attack the second day. If a unit takes three days to land, it will shock attack on the third day too. Remember to check each and every turn and cancel the shock attack orders! If you forget then units might continue shock attacking longer than required. That will wreck them and might ruin the invasion.

After you have the units ashore in fighting condition (they likely won't be in perfect condition!), then check the disruption and fatigue. Do not attack until disruption is in single digits. Fatigue should be no more than 30, but fatigue is way more tolerable than disruption. You will play with these figures in different situations and develop your own feel for what numbers are acceptable.

After disruption and fatigue (but most especially disruption) are within acceptable parameters, start making deliberate attacks. No shock attacks! And check disruption after each attack, resting when necessary. You will be amazed at how well the assault goes with non-disrupted units making deliberate attacks.

If you have exceeded stacking limits by any significant percentage, then remember to land some supply each turn.

BTW, if you only had 2 Marine Rgts ready I think they would be enough, provided you only landed one of them on the first day (to absorb the big first-day hit).

Edit to Add: That Tank Bn should really help. Tanks are great at attacking fortifications in AE.



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Post #: 38
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 5:05:02 PM   
Crackaces


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One other thing .. I am finding that disrupton is a huge die roll with lots of variation. Great General, 100% prep yadda yadda yadda .. and my landing on Wake turned into a disaster with the 7th Inf division taking 100% disuption after the landing and shock attack -- never recovering enough to take the Atoll and the USMC had to save the day ..

But as many have stated here .. the backup troops did not take such a severe die roll either because of some intial shock algorithum or I was more lucky on the second landing .. either way I got the Atoll ..

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Post #: 39
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 6:48:22 PM   
jmalter

 

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quote:


Whats the benefit of setting an amphib TF to full speed?

often, my AmphTF is set to arrive 1 hex away, so i use fullspeed for the final approach.
quote:


also there will only be two unloading phases, not four. Each navel movement phase allows unloading, which can be partial if the TF is interrupted by, say, approaching enemy warships.

AmphTFs unload 4 times a turn, before the naval movement & after the air operations, in both the night & day sections.



< Message edited by jmalter -- 12/8/2012 6:51:28 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 8:15:00 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter
then switch to full speed / unload / do not retire for the next turn.


Whats the benefit of setting an amphib TF to full speed? Except maybe posing a less juicy target for subs and eating
up fuel at quadruple rate?

Unloading has nothing to do with TF speed, and the TF is already in the hex, correct?

Correct - also there will only be two unloading phases, not four. Each navel movement phase allows unloading, which can be partial if the TF is interrupted by, say, approaching enemy warships.

One old practice is to stop 1 hex away in a hex with no land whatsoever. Then move that last hex (at normal speed, not full speed) with Unload settings on the invasion turn. This was because of bugs where some troops would begin unloading in spite of the Do Not Unload setting if they were in a hex with land (your intended target or not). Of course those few troops always got trashed in the shock attack. I have not heard of that happening in a long time so Michael might have found it and fixed it quite some time ago.


Thanks! Thought so.

I remember that bug, but I think it was in WitP, have not heard of it in AE...

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Post #: 41
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/8/2012 8:47:11 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:


Whats the benefit of setting an amphib TF to full speed?

often, my AmphTF is set to arrive 1 hex away, so i use fullspeed for the final approach.
quote:


also there will only be two unloading phases, not four. Each navel movement phase allows unloading, which can be partial if the TF is interrupted by, say, approaching enemy warships.

AmphTFs unload 4 times a turn, before the naval movement & after the air operations, in both the night & day sections.

Thanks for the correction.

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Post #: 42
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/9/2012 9:21:11 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Thank you all for the advice!

I will land 2 Tank BTL 1 USMC RGT and 2 engineer RGTs in the first wave. The second USMC will be in reserve! I really, really hope it will be enough. As I said this time I will spend a lot more time working over the island with naval and air bombardment!

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Post #: 43
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 12/9/2012 9:51:31 AM   
jmalter

 

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hope you have good results w/ your atoll assault, JocMeister.

hope you have more than a few 'supply only' ships in your 2nd-wave AmphTF. if the defenses are tough, you need to go in initially w/ enough troops & supply to 'gain a lodgement'.

but IMO the overstack penalty (which destroys your supplies) is applied during the 'Calculating Spoilage' section of the game-turn, after land-combat is finished. so if you can start the next day w/ add'l supply unloading into the target hex, you won't be caught short during the 2nd-day land-combat phase. nor should you send all your 2nd-wave supply in to unload on day 2, but meter it out so that you can unload supply each subsequent day.

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Post #: 44
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 1/25/2013 6:50:19 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Woops! Had forgotten this thread I started but was reminded when a similar thread was posted.

I did learn from all the advice I got here and have now made two successful atoll invasions. Canton island was inconclusive as my opponent withdrew in the last minute but using the same recipe I just secure Baker Island.

I though I bump this thread as this thread is kind of a 101 on atoll invasions!

My own advice for Atolls: Bombard, bombard, and bombard for two weeks. Then land!

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Post #: 45
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 1/25/2013 9:59:02 PM   
goran007

 

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I always thought that only penalty for overstacking atol is penalty in supplies consumption?

If i am correct, go against atols with 2-3 times of what is stacking limit and take the base on first shock attack. That is what i do against AI at least.

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Post #: 46
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 1/25/2013 10:47:30 PM   
Crackaces


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quote:

ORIGINAL: goran007

I always thought that only penalty for overstacking atol is penalty in supplies consumption?

If i am correct, go against atols with 2-3 times of what is stacking limit and take the base on first shock attack. That is what i do against AI at least.



That is a limitation of defending an Atoll .. however, a defender can overstack at the last second and meet your now comitted forces[AI does not do that] on the first wave and we stalemate with two depleted forces .. if you do not have reserves I accomplish my mission because you will not take the atoll with the depleted troops .. so .. the thought is first wave takes all the penalities and checks out force comittment .. second and subquent preppred waves take the Atoll ...

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Post #: 47
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 1/26/2013 3:12:40 AM   
JeffK


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All of this fiddling around with settings and bombarding for a couple of weeks only sets you up for a beating.

Your opponent will be getting Air Land & Sea elements into the area by every possible means.

Plus its going to take a long time to conquer the Pacific at those speeds.

IMVHO, if you are attacking a Bn sized force, take a Division plus support, 1-2 days air and sea bombardment and heavy units in the amphib TF. Upsize this formula as the defender number increase. Be 75%+ prepped and have competent commanders.
Dont fear overstacking, as long as you win the day it works, losing a few disrupted squads is acceptable.

As mentioned, bring extra supply while you reload the attackers and leave a garrison. Losing a few disrupted squads is acceptable.

Atoll invasions need to smash your opponent, not pry him out using minimal force and Clauswickinan tactics.

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Post #: 48
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 1/26/2013 3:20:20 AM   
bigred


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

All of this fiddling around with settings and bombarding for a couple of weeks only sets you up for a beating.

Your opponent will be getting Air Land & Sea elements into the area by every possible means.

Plus its going to take a long time to conquer the Pacific at those speeds.

IMVHO, if you are attacking a Bn sized force, take a Division plus support, 1-2 days air and sea bombardment and heavy units in the amphib TF. Upsize this formula as the defender number increase. Be 75%+ prepped and have competent commanders.
Dont fear overstacking, as long as you win the day it works, losing a few disrupted squads is acceptable.

As mentioned, bring extra supply while you reload the attackers and leave a garrison. Losing a few disrupted squads is acceptable.

Atoll invasions need to smash your opponent, not pry him out using minimal force and Clauswickinan tactics.

well, you can use a division on an atoll if u want to beat a
BN . I prefer one marine defense battalion, one combat engineer, one naval support section, and one tank unit. I find this gets the job done.

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Post #: 49
RE: Atoll invasion - No obvert for now. - 1/28/2013 4:03:28 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Bring a hammer to smash a walnut when you invade a defended atoll. A BIG hammer. I use fully prepped Marine divisions, plus tank and combat engineer units, only after repeated naval and air bombardment in the weeks before the Big Day. I also use the AKA/APA/Landing Craft units so they unload everything immediately rather than dribbling them out over several days.

If you've got air cover, the garrison was isolated so they couldn't resupply, and you've been pounding them by air and sea for a while, the assault will be bloody but quick. The longer you are just on the island without taking it, the worse it will be for your troops.

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