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Marathon scenario - 11/12/2012 12:39:36 PM   
Rodia


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Hello.

I'm looking for the author of Marathon scenario.

Does Mr. A. Rinkleff use this board?

I know his email is in Rugged defense but the scenario is a bit old and well, I'd prefer to send him a PM.

(I need permission to use the eqp file) <- here it goes, no more need of PM.
Post #: 1
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/13/2012 10:21:32 PM   
Rodia


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Sorry to answer myself but..., I got the permission, yay! (Thanks a lot).

Any advice for TOAPW - the Peloponnesian War in TOAW?

I have Thucydides!


Edit:




< Message edited by Rodia -- 1/18/2013 6:49:49 PM >

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 2
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/22/2012 9:11:00 PM   
Telumar


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I like the look of the Icons. So this is not Marathon/Persian Wars, but Athen vs Sparta.

Now, what about the technical details? How have you modded the equipment to model Hoplites/the Phalanx, Cavalry, Archers etc pp. Shipping? Turn lengths?

_____________________________


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Post #: 3
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/23/2012 3:14:52 PM   
Rodia


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Thanks for your kind words, Telumar.

Indeed, the counters right now are the best thing.

1) In order to cover 431 BC - 404 BC i'm going for 1 Toaw week = 1 month.

Unfortunately is this or stopping at 410 BC because the 1000 turn limit.

2) I'm using a 15 Km/hex map, converted from the "Epic of the Peloponnesian War" boardgame. In the editor is declared as a 50 Km/hex map to stress supply lines and make all troops slower... Maybe too slow - I'm still experimenting with that.

3) About Equipment: There are hoplites, triremes, peltasts, archers, cavalry, swordmen & spearmen for the persian, generals and kings.

Hoplites are 9 Attack, 18 Defense ATM, with everything having less punch and way less defence (but more movement). IE: Peltasts are 4 - 4.

Strategoi and kings have supply, mp and engineer properties and they are attached to normal hoplite units, but as equipment they do not reinforce - I have yet to beta test that in the long run.

4) Ships! Right now the more daunting task is the sea.

If it was for Peloponnesian Elmer I would release the map in one week (he plays great) but Elmer Pericles is not working at all.

About the ships, I want to make them deadly to other ships but inmune to land troops and inofensive for them (besides their antishipping properties). They also do supply.

5) There are some cool events already. The Olympic truces, Alcibiades defection, Argos neutrality, Mytilene revolt...

I'm using nuclear attacks (!) for the plague in Athens of 430 - 429 and 427. I'd much prefer to use pestilence or chemicals instead, but I don't see how to do that for a single hex.

6) New sounds!

7) And a total lack of Sicily (for now).


I'm going for historicity all the way, but not forcing it (ie, there's no event to kill Pericles at 429 and plague events are somewhat random).

If you guys have any advice or any "don't do that, fool!" I'm all eyes and ears.


Sorry for the wall of text, I've been working alone on this for to much time :)

(in reply to Telumar)
Post #: 4
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/26/2012 5:04:22 PM   
Rodia


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Added Sicily and Magna Graecia to the map:



Some questions if you don't mind:

- Reentry points are at Sparta and Athens, but that makes ship reinforcements to appear on the map corners. Besides moving the reentry points to a port is there anyway around this?

EDIT: Found this.

- I've made groups of ships only, but PO for these groups doesn't follow orders (at all). Do ships have to be attached to land units for PO to move them?

- I've read there's no Theatre Options in PBEM. Is that still true?


< Message edited by Rodia -- 11/27/2012 12:34:45 AM >

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 5
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/27/2012 2:48:10 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rodia

- I've made groups of ships only, but PO for these groups doesn't follow orders (at all). Do ships have to be attached to land units for PO to move them?

- I've read there's no Theatre Options in PBEM. Is that still true?


Great job on the counters, by the way.

The formation's PO objectives need to be enemy owned in order to get it to take action. So, if you've put them in deep water hexes, and those hexes are friendly owned (hard to tell for deep water) then the PO won't do much. Better to put them on land - even for naval formations. See if that's the issue.

No truth to the TO thing. Where did that come from?

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 6
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/27/2012 3:14:09 AM   
Rodia


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Thanks, Mr. Cross.

About TO in PBEM, my fault: i'ts the Programmed Opponent the one who does not use it. I got this mixed after reading 10+ years of TOAW info in one month.

And thanks for naval PO advice, that makes a lot of sense.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 7
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/27/2012 3:39:15 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rodia

About TO in PBEM, my fault: i'ts the Programmed Opponent the one who does not use it. I got this mixed after reading 10+ years of TOAW info in one month.


Ah, yes. That is true that it does not do so on its own initiative. However, you can program the PO to use them, if you wish. You use the PO1 Activate or PO2 Activate effects.

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 8
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/27/2012 11:55:21 AM   
Rodia


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That's perfect, thanks again.

The TO could be used to simulate the ancient Athens assembly - just fantasizing ATM, there's a lot of scenario basics still to be done.

BTW, I should state that I worked in the counters but of course the art is not mine (I wish).

The graphics are from a dingbat Truetype Font. In the scenario doc there will be full credits.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 9
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/27/2012 6:56:46 PM   
Sekadegas

 

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Please note that while trying ancient wars you're on the very (very) limit of TOAW engine.

Use it at your own risk but please to not complain if some details don't match.




(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 10
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/27/2012 8:33:07 PM   
Rodia


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Yeah, I noted that. I'm nuking Pericles, after all.

But TOAW has been used for ancient battles scenarios before, and what I want to do is an ancient war at operational level.

So hopefully I'm not deviating that much and this thing will work.

(in reply to Sekadegas)
Post #: 11
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/29/2012 4:06:24 AM   
Creeper

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rodia

1) In order to cover 431 BC - 404 BC i'm going for 1 Toaw week = 1 month.

Unfortunately is this or stopping at 410 BC because the 1000 turn limit.



Hi Rodia,

if you are familiar with a hexeditor, I can tell you how to increase the 1000 turn limit.
Give me a PM.

btw, really good looking counters; i love it!


(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 12
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/29/2012 9:48:04 AM   
Rodia


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Thanks Creeper, and thank you for your offer.

I'm gonna keep 1 week = 1 month, at least for first version. That means 333 turns.

But I have a question about that:

I made a "6 turns warm front / 6 turns cold front" cycle to represent summer - winter. In the map there's two weather zones (warm & hot).

Are warm - cold fronts enough to simulate summer - winter? Or should I add negative shock for both forces in winter and/or random storms?

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Post #: 13
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/30/2012 9:55:34 AM   
SMK-at-work

 

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There were a lot of "random events" in the PW - especially cities of the Delian league revolting against Athenian "rule". As a result there were a lot of armies raised in response to events - they might be 1000 hoplites, 100 cavalry, some light troops, and then maybe 2-3 times that of allies.

Not sure how you will cope with that.

Also the raising of troops was strictly for cash - so tribute coming in from the Delian League and taxation and the silver mines in various places financed Athenian efforts. And eventually of course Persian Gold financed Spartan victory.

Supply outside of winter was mainly by local purchase - although forces with limited local resources - such as on small islands or in a siege situation would sometimes need resupply.

Athens itself of course was fed by gain from the Black Sea - and it was the cutting of this route that secured its defeat.

The Greek campaigning year was normally 10 months.

A great book for how Greek armies operated is "Campaigns of Alexander the Great" by Phil Barker - it is old (1979) so may be hard to get - but contains a lot of summarised info as to the wealth and strength of various cities 100 years after the start of the PW - which isn't really that long :)

Good luck! :)

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 14
RE: Marathon scenario - 11/30/2012 2:06:39 PM   
Rodia


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Hello, SMK-at-work!

Indeed, I've been thinking a lot about the way to do revolts: Mytilene (428), Corcyra (427), Chios, Miletus (412).

Against the PO they work atm, but a PBEM player could easily block them and that's a big no.

I have to rethink my approach and convert the fixed events into something more flexible (anyways, keep in mind that without Peloponnesian support, all these revolts where doomed to fail - but yeah, I have a problem here).

About the 10 month campaigning: besides 6 turns warm front / 6 turns cool front, after some weather tests I have to do a winter mini cycle (dec, jan. and feb.) with negative shock.

Are "front effects" cumulative?

I wonder if something like this will work:

October - Cool Front
December - Cool Front
May - Warm Front
June - Warm Front

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work
Good luck! :)


Thanks! :)

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Post #: 15
RE: Marathon scenario - 12/10/2012 8:12:47 PM   
Rodia


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Weather loops, why they do not work for me?

For example this one:

Event 38: Turn 7, Cool Front, "FALL"
Event 39: Ev. activated 38, Enable event 38, Delay 12

(Range 1 in both).

Event 38 fires again in turn 19 (good) and then in turn 32 - instead of turn 31.

Is there a limit to the number of event loops the engine can handle?

I'm using 36 of them to simulate the seasons (cool/warm fronts, shock, pestilence, and supply+/supply-).

Without loops that would mean 972 events.

What I'm doing wrong?

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 16
RE: Marathon scenario - 12/12/2012 3:26:42 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rodia

Weather loops, why they do not work for me?

For example this one:

Event 38: Turn 7, Cool Front, "FALL"
Event 39: Ev. activated 38, Enable event 38, Delay 12

(Range 1 in both).

Event 38 fires again in turn 19 (good) and then in turn 32 - instead of turn 31.

Is there a limit to the number of event loops the engine can handle?

I'm using 36 of them to simulate the seasons (cool/warm fronts, shock, pestilence, and supply+/supply-).

Without loops that would mean 972 events.

What I'm doing wrong?


Events are tricky, so you never really know if something really involved will work till you try it. But I would suggest trying this change:

Event 38: Turn 7, Cool Front, "FALL"
Event 39: Turn 7, Enable event 38, Delay 12

Be aware that each front only shifts the temperature by one level, and there are eight levels. So a full cycle through all would require 7 cold and 7 warm fronts.

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 17
RE: Marathon scenario - 12/12/2012 4:34:14 PM   
Rodia


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But in your example, correct me if I'm wrong, event 39 will not get fired again, and there would be only "FALL" in turn 7 and 19.

Or maybe in each turn after that?

Yes, you're right: this thing is tricky and I have to try. I just wanted to know if I was doing something obviously wrong.

I will do more tests and check your suggestion.

Yup, fronts: Besides other effects I'm going for Warm in summer to I think is Frozen1 in winter and back, for a very nice effect of snow in mountains, but after the first looped year this whole thing collapses and it goes a mess.

Oh, and the problem it's not the jump from Warm to Frozen3, I'm aware of that. It's just looped events firing late.

Tests, here I come.

Thanks again for answering, Curtis.

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 18
RE: Marathon scenario - 12/12/2012 8:06:41 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rodia

But in your example, correct me if I'm wrong, event 39 will not get fired again, and there would be only "FALL" in turn 7 and 19.

Or maybe in each turn after that?


More likely the latter, but I'm not sure. I know that if you omit the Delay 12, it would fire every turn after turn 7. Turn-triggered Enable events don't have to be re-enabled themselves. But I don't know how the Delay 12 will affect it. You'll just have to test.

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Post #: 19
RE: Marathon scenario - 12/12/2012 8:55:20 PM   
Rodia


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Hmmm, with turn as trigger there's no delay.

The magic is this "Delayed repeating loop" as it's shown here:

http://thetoawbeachhead.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/evil-ed-toaw-3-4.pdf

I've had good consistent results with loops with only two of them, so now I'm thinking the problem is the 36 I'm using.

I'm gonna try a more economic approach, with EDIT: only 4 loops no loops at all.


After some tests I can't trust Evil Ed, I'm gonna go event by event.

4 seasons in a year, 26 and 3/4 years to cover, thats 107 seasons. With only cool/warm fronts and shock effects, for a total of 4 events by season = 428 events.

Adding pestilence and supply +/- between winter and spring = 590 events.

Does TOAW 3.5 expand over the 999 events limit?


< Message edited by Rodia -- 12/12/2012 11:08:13 PM >

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 20
RE: Marathon scenario - 12/13/2012 1:16:07 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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I've got a loop working that might do what you want.

The event sequence I used was:

Event 1 Turn 1 News Only “Warm”
Event 2 Turn 2 Cold Front “Temperate”
Event 3 Event Activated 2 Activate Event 4 Delay 1
Event 4 Turn 999 Cold Front “Cool”
Event 5 Event Activated 4 Activate Event 6 Delay 1
Event 6 Turn 999 Cold Front “Cold”
Event 7 Event Activated 6 Activate Event 8 Delay 1
Event 8 Turn 999 Cold Front “Frozen 1”
Event 9 Event Activated 8 Activate Event 10 Delay 1
Event 10 Turn 999 Cold Front “Frozen 2”
Event 11 Event Activated 10 Activate Event 12 Delay 1
Event 12 Turn 999 Cold Front “Frozen 3”
Event 13 Event Activated 12 Activate Event 14 Delay 1
Event 14 Turn 999 Warm Front “Frozen 2”
Event 15 Event Activated 14 Activate Event 16 Delay 1
Event 16 Turn 999 Warm Front “Frozen 1”
Event 17 Event Activated 16 Activate Event 18 Delay 1
Event 18 Turn 999 Warm Front “Cold”
Event 19 Event Activated 18 Activate Event 20 Delay 1
Event 20 Turn 999 Warm Front “Cool”
Event 21 Event Activated 20 Activate Event 22 Delay 1
Event 22 Turn 999 Warm Front “Temperate”
Event 23 Event Activated 22 Activate Event 24 Delay 1
Event 24 Turn 999 Warm Front “Warm”
Event 25 Event Activated 24 Activate Event 2 Delay 1
Event 26 Turn 1 Enable Event 3
Event 27 Turn 1 Enable Event 5
Event 28 Turn 1 Enable Event 7
Event 29 Turn 1 Enable Event 9
Event 30 Turn 1 Enable Event 11
Event 31 Turn 1 Enable Event 13
Event 32 Turn 1 Enable Event 15
Event 33 Turn 1 Enable Event 17
Event 34 Turn 1 Enable Event 19
Event 35 Turn 1 Enable Event 21
Event 36 Turn 1 Enable Event 23
Event 37 Turn 1 Enable Event 25

I've attached the test scenario, with a turn 40 save. The 12 turn loop worked for more than 3 trips through. You can see this in the News briefing of the save turn.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 12/13/2012 1:17:58 AM >

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RE: Marathon scenario - 12/13/2012 8:32:06 AM   
Rodia


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Most generous, Curtis, thank you.

Without Evil Ed blue marble in the background I fail to see the logic - I'm amazed at turn 999 and the enabled enabling events - but after work I'm gonna try your solution ASAP.

You're in scenario credits, along Thucydides and Xenophon

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Post #: 22
RE: Marathon scenario - 12/13/2012 2:40:17 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rodia

Without Evil Ed blue marble in the background I fail to see the logic - I'm amazed at turn 999 and the enabled enabling events


Turn 999 is not necessary - I could have used the initial turn sequence, but doing it this way enabled me to see that that part of the logic worked right from the start, without needing to do a second pass through just to see if it would.

The "event activated" triggered events have to be re-enabled if they are to work more than once - thus the enable events. Fortunately, the "activate event" effect overrides any need to re-enable its target, so the front effect events didn't need re-enabling (otherwise, there would have been 12 more "enable" events in the sequence).

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 23
RE: Marathon scenario - 12/13/2012 8:28:18 PM   
Rodia


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Your example scenario is working great.

I tried it from the beginning until turn 55, and weather worked like a charm.

The scenario is also a very quick way to see "fronts" and TOAW weather effects.

Anyways..., thanks again. :)

I will update about progress when I finish weather.

EDIT:

Totally working, yesssssssss.

I have to add now side effects to weather, hope to not screw that, but the technic is genius: clever and simple.

Zeus in his sacred hex of Mt. Olympus is very, very pleased.




< Message edited by Rodia -- 12/14/2012 10:46:16 AM >

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Post #: 24
RE: Marathon scenario - 1/5/2013 4:06:24 AM   
Rodia


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You're not gonna believe it but... I need help.

I'm looking for a way to make ships unable to fire land troops.

I've tried setting "hex distance" in land hexes to double of ship arty range, but that did not work, ships can still fire there.

Tried also with "Naval Task Force" counter. Manual (p. 81-82) states there's no bombard capability for that counter, but I did not see any difference at all with the "light ships" counter.

Any trick in a land/sea scenario to have ships without artillery but with combat abilities, so they can still damage each other?

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 25
RE: Marathon scenario - 1/5/2013 4:21:39 AM   
sPzAbt653


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What's the ships range ? If you don't need the ships getting close to the land, you can put some 'shallow water' hexes next to the coast. That keeps them from getting close.

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Post #: 26
RE: Marathon scenario - 1/5/2013 4:41:41 AM   
Rodia


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Oh, yes, I forgot to tell this, I can't use shallow water with my actual map, I thought about it, but the map is too small for that, there are some narrow places only 1 hex wide.

It could be weird, and besides, ships could still fire at anchorage hexes, I have a lot of them.

I also looked into other scenario equipments, specially pre XIX but most of them avoid the use of ships, I understand why.


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Post #: 27
RE: Marathon scenario - 1/5/2013 4:45:30 AM   
sPzAbt653


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Yeah, take out the ships !!

(in reply to Rodia)
Post #: 28
RE: Marathon scenario - 1/5/2013 4:55:37 AM   
Rodia


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Hmmm, yep, that's an idea.

I could use events - specially sea transport difference between both sides.

I have to check if without ships, Elmer is more prone to do sea invasions.

Too bad embarked troops can't fight each other in sea, if not problem solved already.

Thanks, sPzAbt653!


EDIT:

Hmph. Back at having ships.

I'm using railroads as sea supply, and now sea posession is very important, Athenian player could do great things with this.

Preview of railroads as sea lanes:




< Message edited by Rodia -- 1/7/2013 1:00:16 AM >

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Post #: 29
RE: Marathon scenario - 7/12/2013 6:37:58 AM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rodia

Hmmm, yep, that's an idea.

I could use events - specially sea transport difference between both sides.

I have to check if without ships, Elmer is more prone to do sea invasions.

Too bad embarked troops can't fight each other in sea, if not problem solved already.

Thanks, sPzAbt653!


EDIT:

Hmph. Back at having ships.

I'm using railroads as sea supply, and now sea posession is very important, Athenian player could do great things with this.

Preview of railroads as sea lanes:




Ingenious! For that alone you should receive a TOAW work-around design prize... RR used as sea-/shipping lanes, brilliant!

Klink, Oberst

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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Visit the Gefechtsstand!

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