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Supply for beginners once again ...

 
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Supply for beginners once again ... - 11/9/2012 9:29:06 AM   
VadeS

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 11/9/2012
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Hi everyone !

Supply and other issues for TOAW beginners one again....

Before I found TOAW I played only printed strategic games where all rules are pointed out in manual, so I am used to carry out movements and battles with fully understanding of it's possible outcome. Computer simulation provide extended complexity and explaining its mechanics would cover hundreds of pages, but reading manual of TOAW it's almost impossible to understand how exacly supply works !. I read many posts and articles on matrixgames and other sites but they don't explain everything.

1. Let's check in the manual what influence has "force supply stockpile level" :

we can learn that it may varry from 0 to 100 ; "It represents supplies available for distribution to units through Formation Supply systems" ; "This represents Supply

stockpiles available to the entire Force" ... and that's it !

Simple question - in Balkans 12 this factor is set to 20 , what does it mean to particular units per turn ?

2. "supply enhancement due to force transport asset" - no detail match found in the "manual"

In Balkans 12 it is set to 9 , what does it mean to particular units per turn ?

3. "effective supply capability" same as above, no useful information

What effect it has on particular unit in the game ?


4. How to extract information about reinforcements to useful output for example csv,xls ? in larger scenarions scrolling down "expected reinforcements" is a never ending story (TOAWIIIViewer is the only option ?). Same question with units aviable at the start of the game ?



TOAW is a great strategy game at operational level, it stretches from napoleon to modern conflicts but how one may fully enjoy this system without even basic explanation in the manual of the most important aspect which is supply ?
Post #: 1
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 11/9/2012 5:12:31 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7176
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VadeS

Hi everyone !

Supply and other issues for TOAW beginners one again....

Before I found TOAW I played only printed strategic games where all rules are pointed out in manual, so I am used to carry out movements and battles with fully understanding of it's possible outcome. Computer simulation provide extended complexity and explaining its mechanics would cover hundreds of pages, but reading manual of TOAW it's almost impossible to understand how exacly supply works !. I read many posts and articles on matrixgames and other sites but they don't explain everything.

1. Let's check in the manual what influence has "force supply stockpile level" :

we can learn that it may varry from 0 to 100 ; "It represents supplies available for distribution to units through Formation Supply systems" ; "This represents Supply

stockpiles available to the entire Force" ... and that's it !

Simple question - in Balkans 12 this factor is set to 20 , what does it mean to particular units per turn ?

2. "supply enhancement due to force transport asset" - no detail match found in the "manual"

In Balkans 12 it is set to 9 , what does it mean to particular units per turn ?

3. "effective supply capability" same as above, no useful information

What effect it has on particular unit in the game ?


Section 9.1.7 of the manual does describe the supply system. You just have to fully grasp what it's saying - which is admittedly difficult.

The Force Supply Stockpile Level is the supply level that's available right at a supply point, or on any unbroken rail line linked to a supply point. However, this value can be increased by transport asset sharing, and reduced by enemy interdiction. The combination of all of that determines the net effective supply level at the supply point. From there, the supply must be traced to the units, and the further away they are the less they get. Players can increase their transport asset sharing by not using their lift capacities and not moving heavily motorized units. Players can reduce the enemy's interdiction level via combat success in air operations.

The manual is describing the Old Supply trace system. The New Supply trace system is described in the What's New document. But, for Old Supply, the manual describes four levels: Full Supply (100% of the effective level), Normal Supply (75% of the effective level), Limited Supply (50% of the effective level), and Minimal Supply (25% of the effective level). Which one a location receives depends upon how far, in hexes, from the supply point (or rail head) the location is, and what the scenario's supply radius is set to. Within one radius = Full; Within two = Normal; Within three = Limited; And beyond three = Minimal. There are also deductions for being in certain terrains. Finally, there is a unit icon that specifies the unit to be a Supply Unit. Locations within a supply radius of such a unit increase their supply by 25% of the effective level - but not above 100% of that level.

Note: Under New Supply trace, the supply decays exponentially with Movement Points from the supply point. Also, the supply units reduce the distance to the supply point by one supply radius instead of a fixed increase to the supply level. Finally, New Supply adds Variable Values to supply points. The point can have from 1%-250% of the effective level instead of always 100% of it (set by the designer).

Note that the supply trace cannot pass through enemy units or next to them if not occuppied by friendly units, and through any terrain that can't be entered by motorized units.

This supply trace process results in each hex on the map being assigned a supply value. You can see this via toggling the supply display button.

From that point, the amount of supply a unit receives is that value for the hex the unit is located in (x 1.5 if High Supply is in effect) x Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency x 2/3 (x 2/3 if moved) (x 2/3 if night) (x 1.5 if next to/stacked with a cooperative HQ) (x 1.5 if next to/stacked with a cooperative SU).

Note that High Supply is a game option (as is New Supply). Also, Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency can be reduced by the loss of supply teams in the formation's HQ or the loss of that HQ.

That sounds pretty complex, but you don't really need to keep track of all that. Just remember that the further you get from a supply point, the less you recover. If you don't move or fight and stay next to a cooperative HQ and a cooperative SU, you will recover the fastest. Try not to get your HQs damaged or destroyed. Repair your rail lines toward your front lines. Keep your lines of communication with supply points open.

quote:

4. How to extract information about reinforcements to useful output for example csv,xls ? in larger scenarions scrolling down "expected reinforcements" is a never ending story (TOAWIIIViewer is the only option ?). Same question with units aviable at the start of the game ?


I'm not aware of any way to do that.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 11/10/2012 2:49:17 PM >

(in reply to VadeS)
Post #: 2
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 11/9/2012 5:58:07 PM   
tcarusil

 

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Joined: 5/1/2011
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"This supply trace process results in each hex on the map being assigned a supply value. You can see this via toggling the supply display button."

This has always baffled me. For example, I have a unit that moves from the supply point to the front and as it moves the supply assigned to each hex is shown. The next turn however there is no supply shown over the hexes that the unit just traversed. Does this mean that there is no supply or that units need to be shuttling back and forth from the supply point to the front?

TomC

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 3
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 11/9/2012 8:41:32 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7176
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tcarusil

"This supply trace process results in each hex on the map being assigned a supply value. You can see this via toggling the supply display button."

This has always baffled me. For example, I have a unit that moves from the supply point to the front and as it moves the supply assigned to each hex is shown. The next turn however there is no supply shown over the hexes that the unit just traversed. Does this mean that there is no supply or that units need to be shuttling back and forth from the supply point to the front?


You'll have to illustrate what you mean with a screenshot.

(in reply to tcarusil)
Post #: 4
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 11/9/2012 9:08:17 PM   
LLv34_Snefens


Posts: 227
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Aarhus, Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tcarusil

"This supply trace process results in each hex on the map being assigned a supply value. You can see this via toggling the supply display button."

This has always baffled me. For example, I have a unit that moves from the supply point to the front and as it moves the supply assigned to each hex is shown. The next turn however there is no supply shown over the hexes that the unit just traversed. Does this mean that there is no supply or that units need to be shuttling back and forth from the supply point to the front?

TomC



It sounds like a case of Fog of War.

You can't see the exact supply value at hexes that haven't been adjacent to any of your unit this turn, as that indircetly would give you information where unobserved enemy units were.

So, no. You don't need to be able to see an unbroken row of hexes with supply value to get supply at the front.

You can try to start a game with "No borders" set to OFF. That allows you to know the ownership of each hex and thus also the supply value. When "No borders" is set to ON, there is no change in supply, you just don't get the full picture.

< Message edited by LLv34_Snefens -- 11/9/2012 9:14:12 PM >

(in reply to tcarusil)
Post #: 5
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 11/9/2012 9:54:43 PM   
VadeS

 

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Thank you Curtis ! you gave very useful information

(in reply to LLv34_Snefens)
Post #: 6
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 11/9/2012 11:21:33 PM   
tcarusil

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 5/1/2011
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No borders "on" was the issue. Setting it to "off" did show the supply trace. Now that I know that it is there, but just can't be seen, I can switch back to no borders "on" ( no desire to avoid the fog of war) and rest easy. Thanks for the information.

TomC

(in reply to LLv34_Snefens)
Post #: 7
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 11/10/2012 5:33:04 PM   
VadeS

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 11/9/2012
Status: offline
To sum up my post with "Balkans 12" example.

From situation briefing :

("force supply stockpile level"+"supply enhancement due to force transport assets sharing")*(1-"enemy interdiction reduces our supply capability")="effective supply capability"

so :

"effective supply capability"=(20+9)*(1-0)=29


Each hex which supply value, in example city Larissa, provides supply given by slightly modified "effective supply capability". Hexes adjacent to Larissa have supply level decreased due to distance modifiers.








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< Message edited by VadeS -- 11/10/2012 6:42:15 PM >

(in reply to tcarusil)
Post #: 8
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 11/10/2012 10:40:48 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7176
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VadeS

To sum up my post with "Balkans 12" example.

From situation briefing :

("force supply stockpile level"+"supply enhancement due to force transport assets sharing")*(1-"enemy interdiction reduces our supply capability")="effective supply capability"

so :

"effective supply capability"=(20+9)*(1-0)=29


It's simpiler than that: 20 + 9 - 0 = 29

(in reply to VadeS)
Post #: 9
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 12/5/2012 11:02:15 AM   
demjansk

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 2/20/2008
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I understand the supply system for the most part, however, my problem is making sure that units in the same Army stay together. What is the best way to do that?

Plus, the reserve counters are the same as the HQ units for the axis side?

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 10
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 12/5/2012 3:12:24 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7176
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: demjansk

I understand the supply system for the most part, however, my problem is making sure that units in the same Army stay together. What is the best way to do that?


Section 7.5 in the manual, see "Formation Highlight: Visible".

But, also, ask whether there is a benefit to keeping them together - it depends upon their cooperation settings.

quote:

Plus, the reserve counters are the same as the HQ units for the axis side?


Not sure what you're asking, but it sounds scenario-specific.

(in reply to demjansk)
Post #: 11
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 12/5/2012 9:18:46 PM   
demjansk

 

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Hi Curtis,

I guess what I mean is when I click on a unit the units with the same organization have a highlighted circle on them. However, is there other marking available to highlight the units?

Secondly, I am playing a large scenario and the soviets have reserve units but no HQ units, I think its fire in the east

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 12
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 12/5/2012 9:51:38 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 7176
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: demjansk

Hi Curtis,

I guess what I mean is when I click on a unit the units with the same organization have a highlighted circle on them. However, is there other marking available to highlight the units?


No. If the highlight available is inadequate for you, then try using the "next unit" button on the control panel. That will make each unit in a formation active in sequence.

quote:

Secondly, I am playing a large scenario and the soviets have reserve units but no HQ units, I think its fire in the east


If you mean reserve icons vs. HQ icons, they do not have the same function. I'm not aware of any reserve icons in FITE, though, and the Soviet forces definitely have HQs in it as well. If you can find out for sure what scenario you're playing, someone may be able to help.

(in reply to demjansk)
Post #: 13
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 12/5/2012 11:40:00 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 2793
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From: east coast, usa
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You can also hit 'F' on the keyboard and that will bring up the Formation Report for any selected unit. This allows you to see what other units are in the same formation (some may not be on the map at the time). Clicking on the top unit will bring you to where it is, then you can hit 'N' on the keyboard to phase thru all units in a formation to see where they are. In Fite and similar size scenarios, units are often scattered all over so this is what works for me.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to demjansk)
Post #: 14
RE: Supply for beginners once again ... - 12/6/2012 11:07:05 AM   
demjansk

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 2/20/2008
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Thanks guys for that info, I never use the formation button, oh I am playing Europe Aflame, you know how some games have different colors for each different unit, sometimes that makes it easier. thanks for the help

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 15
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