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RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming

 
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RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/9/2012 11:43:25 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Malta
Status: offline 		I used to be a professional soldier.

We "wargamed" different situations all the time, to make us better soldiers..or..better killers even.

I have no moral qualms about it. War is hell and people die. Deal with it. (so to speak)

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(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 31
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/9/2012 11:56:51 PM   
SqzMyLemon


Posts: 2148
Joined: 10/30/2009
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

As a young european interested in wargames, at a time when lots of survivors of both world wars were still around, I remember having a lot of explaining to do (which, I must say, was often complicated by the poor art taste of some game publishers: you have more trouble explaining to your grandmother that it is just a game, about history, when the cover of the said game features a grinning SS officer in a field of ruins).

Francois


This comment reminds me of my Grandmother questioning my model hobby when I was younger. She noticed I was always buying models of German aircraft and vehicles and asked why I was interested in kits that represented, to her, a totalitarian and evil regime. Trying to explain to her that the vehicles were more interesting and provided greater appeal in terms of variety and painting just never sat well with her. I limited her exposure to my hobby out of respect for her feelings, she after all lived through the war and lost family and friends. I think for some who lived during those times it's just not something to get enjoyment from considering the sacrifice so many had to make, in whatever way.

Personally, I learn more about the individuals who participated and understand the historical events they participated in far more from my hobby interests including this game, which then serves as a catalyst to learn more about the people and the events that shaped their lives. Lest we forget is not just lip service to many who play these types of games, if anything we contribute to keeping their memories alive in discussions and sharing personal stories on forums such as this.

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Don't mistake lack of talent for genius - Peter Steele (Type O Negative)

(in reply to fcharton)
Post #: 32
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 3:11:34 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 2376
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I have a friend who was in Vienna when the Soviet cavalry came in. She described it as Genghis Khan's hordes coming in. She was a young woman, but not a teen, and she doesn't talk about what happened to her afterward, but it is clear that something did happen. She is of Ukrainian extraction, if it matters. There, everyone was all mixed up with Poles, Ungarn, Belorus and etc., and she has great knowledge of all of them. She was from Lemburg, or Lvov if you prefer. All I personally know of Ukraine is Gewumpke, which is similar to the Greek Dolmades, but with beef or pork (instead of lamb) wrapped in cabbage leaves (instead of grape leaves). Now I'm not sure Gewumpke isn't the Polish name (all the eastern european cultures have a version of it, including the Hungarians. Their version has lots of paprika (of course) but I can't recall the name of it just now) so I'm probably forgetting the Ukrainian name.

Oh, the American name is "pigs in a blanket".

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 11/10/2012 3:17:40 AM >

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 33
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 9:37:23 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3881
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		dr.hal, thanks for this interesting topic! Such threads are always a great read.

For me the answer whether a wargame (and for this purpose I would include every related game from 3d shooter to highly abstracted strategy games)
is morally questionable simply lies within the game itself, and how it treats ethical and moral aspects of war and society.

WitP is IMHO one of the easiest to rule out as morally questionable. It does not judge. It it is too abstracted to be able to show atrocities of war besides raw
numbers, and so is never in danger to judge morally. It is not political, it does not deal with complete social entities, and the impact war has on those.
It simply creates a logistical and strategic challenge by setting up hexfields on a historical frame.

Games like HOIII, which are still highly abstracted, but which force the player to sociopolitical decisions based on historical alternatives are already
slightly more in danger of being morally questionable. (does not happen in HOI and I know the example is rather extreme, but just to show what I am referring to:
"should I build concentration camps, and if yes, what are the benefits?")

Similar rules apply to games which are not abstracted high level wargames but close combat simulations, where the brutality shown in my opinion is no problem,
but at the moment the brutality shown is related to a a positive context it gets morally questionable.

So to sum it up, in my opinion the answer depends on how the game itself treats historical events in a moral context.
Is it biased? Does it raise moral questions by itself and provides subjective answers? If it does, I would say it is morally questionable, independent of where the bias
lies.

WitP is fare away from danger to fall within that category...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/10/2012 9:38:38 AM >

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 34
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 2:27:59 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 2536
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: The deepest, darkest pit of hell
Status: offline 		I agree with LoBaron and much of what others have said. Participating in a conflict simulation (for those who disklike the term "playing wargames") does not dishonor the dead per se. On the contrary, it can be a way to commemorate events and participants and to learn more about. It becomes an issue if the game shows the wrong things in the wrong light.
I just want to add that even in WitP, modders can create moral issues as well. I remember a thread a while ago about secret weapons where a forumite posted screenshots of his mod with (among other non-issue units) a POW Camp unit, Unit 516 Chemical Warfare Brigade and a "Human Experiments Brigade" - see http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3076708 Now, if this was done to remind the player about the atrocities committed by Japan it might still be acceptable - but if intended as "secret weapons" combat units?

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 11/11/2012 1:28:14 AM >

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WitP AAR "Six Years of War"

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 35
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 6:04:22 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3178
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

I fully understand Yoshio-san's point of view ...


... but I find it ironic as the Imperial Japanese had wargamed Midway and other operations.

However, I wonder if Yoshio-san was secretly more disturbed at the pospect of winning the contest.

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(in reply to Commander Cody)
Post #: 36
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 6:07:25 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3881
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
I just want to add that even in WitP, modders can create moral issues as well. I remember a thread a while ago about secret weapons were a forumite posted screenshots of his mod with (among other non-issue units) a POW Camp unit, Unit 516 Chemical Warfare Brigade and a "Human Experiments Brigade" - see http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3076708 Now, if this was done to remind the player about the atrocities committed by Japan it might still be acceptable - but if intended as "secret weapons" combat units?


You hit the nail LST. One can use a small modification to suddently deliver an ethical message and this has the potential to change a whole game from neutral to morally questionable.
The content of your link is a good example, although I never regarded 5th tanks as more than a below average troll...

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 37
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 12:49:48 AM   
jetjockey


Posts: 211
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline 		+1

(in reply to Empire101)
Post #: 38
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 10:24:35 AM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1326
Joined: 10/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
I just want to add that even in WitP, modders can create moral issues as well. I remember a thread a while ago about secret weapons were a forumite posted screenshots of his mod with (among other non-issue units) a POW Camp unit, Unit 516 Chemical Warfare Brigade and a "Human Experiments Brigade" - see http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3076708 Now, if this was done to remind the player about the atrocities committed by Japan it might still be acceptable - but if intended as "secret weapons" combat units?


You hit the nail LST. One can use a small modification to suddently deliver an ethical message and this has the potential to change a whole game from neutral to morally questionable.
The content of your link is a good example, although I never regarded 5th tanks as more than a below average troll...


You don't even need a game to deliver an ethical message.. You only need a server and a message board. Not everything the internet brings is good...

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(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 39
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 2:41:04 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3881
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Cannonfodder)
Post #: 40
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 3:08:23 PM   
Empire101


Posts: 1896
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Coruscant
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...


+1


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Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy. - Michael Burleigh


(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 41
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 6:13:10 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 1402
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

dr.hal, thanks for this interesting topic! Such threads are always a great read.


You are most welcome LoBaron. I too enjoy a good debate. Thus this thread.

However I would ask readers to refrain from speculation as to Yoshio san's motives. I'm the only person on this site that knows the man. The purpose of this thread is not to speculate as to why Yoshio san feels the way he does, but to look at the target of that thought, the concept of wargaming. I too see many values in doing this (as well as reading history books, etc.). One quick example; in playing the game Manassas (an old board game that I've never seen anywhere else but in my house!) and then walking the battlefield I realized that Evans (and his Demi-Brigade) had little choice other than to do what he did, the delaying action before the federal hook on the confederates left, and the game, well researched, showed me that it was something that could be accomplished with reasonable skill and a bit of luck. It was the first time I gained insight into a actual situation through gaming. It was a "moment" if you will. I've had many since and have enjoyed them all.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 11/12/2012 12:27:45 PM >

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 42
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 11:51:53 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1097
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...

R0flc0pt3r...u n00b ?

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Post #: 43
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/12/2012 3:43:27 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 345
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poznan, Poland
Status: offline 		I understand Yoshio-san. There is a scenario in TOAW III dealing with Polish September Campaign in 1939. I opened it but I couldn't get myself to play it. When I play Japan/Allies in WITP:AE or Axis/Soviets in HPS games I am emotionally detached in a world of hexes, strategy and simulation. I couldn't achieve the same detachment with Polish units in front of me and my family's war stories in the back of my head...

(in reply to Gräfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 44
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/12/2012 8:06:03 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 3881
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...

R0flc0pt3r...u n00b ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXdYylKnv9A

Sorry, but I was unable to find a btter reason to post that link.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Gräfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 45
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/12/2012 8:15:47 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 1402
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline 		So much for the "rare exceptions..."!!!!!!!

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 46
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/13/2012 1:07:03 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1097
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...

R0flc0pt3r...u n00b ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXdYylKnv9A

Sorry, but I was unable to find a btter reason to post that link.



_____________________________



(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 47
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/13/2012 4:45:06 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 6270
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Frankly, I just have never given it much thought.

I will say that I have never played modern war simulations. WWII is as far as I have gone. No Vietnam, Korea, Grenada, Iraq, No cold war what ifs. Maybe they were just too close. Maybe they just never appealed to me. But as boomer, the specter of nukes in my life might have been a factor too. I just have never been interested in any simulation that had nuclear weapons.

Of course, 1945 is coming up in my campaign with Viberpol and I am seriously planning on dropping one or two fat ones on his ass...So I guess there is a first time for everything.

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(in reply to Gräfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 48
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/13/2012 5:28:41 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 9225
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: online 		Go get him CR!


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Post #: 49
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