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RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming

 
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RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/9/2012 11:43:25 AM   
Sardaukar


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I used to be a professional soldier.

We "wargamed" different situations all the time, to make us better soldiers..or..better killers even.

I have no moral qualms about it. War is hell and people die. Deal with it. (so to speak)

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Post #: 31
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/9/2012 11:56:51 PM   
SqzMyLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcharton

As a young european interested in wargames, at a time when lots of survivors of both world wars were still around, I remember having a lot of explaining to do (which, I must say, was often complicated by the poor art taste of some game publishers: you have more trouble explaining to your grandmother that it is just a game, about history, when the cover of the said game features a grinning SS officer in a field of ruins).

Francois


This comment reminds me of my Grandmother questioning my model hobby when I was younger. She noticed I was always buying models of German aircraft and vehicles and asked why I was interested in kits that represented, to her, a totalitarian and evil regime. Trying to explain to her that the vehicles were more interesting and provided greater appeal in terms of variety and painting just never sat well with her. I limited her exposure to my hobby out of respect for her feelings, she after all lived through the war and lost family and friends. I think for some who lived during those times it's just not something to get enjoyment from considering the sacrifice so many had to make, in whatever way.

Personally, I learn more about the individuals who participated and understand the historical events they participated in far more from my hobby interests including this game, which then serves as a catalyst to learn more about the people and the events that shaped their lives. Lest we forget is not just lip service to many who play these types of games, if anything we contribute to keeping their memories alive in discussions and sharing personal stories on forums such as this.

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Post #: 32
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 3:11:34 AM   
geofflambert


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I have a friend who was in Vienna when the Soviet cavalry came in. She described it as Genghis Khan's hordes coming in. She was a young woman, but not a teen, and she doesn't talk about what happened to her afterward, but it is clear that something did happen. She is of Ukrainian extraction, if it matters. There, everyone was all mixed up with Poles, Ungarn, Belorus and etc., and she has great knowledge of all of them. She was from Lemburg, or Lvov if you prefer. All I personally know of Ukraine is Gewumpke, which is similar to the Greek Dolmades, but with beef or pork (instead of lamb) wrapped in cabbage leaves (instead of grape leaves). Now I'm not sure Gewumpke isn't the Polish name (all the eastern european cultures have a version of it, including the Hungarians. Their version has lots of paprika (of course) but I can't recall the name of it just now) so I'm probably forgetting the Ukrainian name.

Oh, the American name is "pigs in a blanket".

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 11/10/2012 3:17:40 AM >

(in reply to SqzMyLemon)
Post #: 33
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 9:37:23 AM   
LoBaron


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dr.hal, thanks for this interesting topic! Such threads are always a great read.

For me the answer whether a wargame (and for this purpose I would include every related game from 3d shooter to highly abstracted strategy games)
is morally questionable simply lies within the game itself, and how it treats ethical and moral aspects of war and society.

WitP is IMHO one of the easiest to rule out as morally questionable. It does not judge. It it is too abstracted to be able to show atrocities of war besides raw
numbers, and so is never in danger to judge morally. It is not political, it does not deal with complete social entities, and the impact war has on those.
It simply creates a logistical and strategic challenge by setting up hexfields on a historical frame.

Games like HOIII, which are still highly abstracted, but which force the player to sociopolitical decisions based on historical alternatives are already
slightly more in danger of being morally questionable. (does not happen in HOI and I know the example is rather extreme, but just to show what I am referring to:
"should I build concentration camps, and if yes, what are the benefits?")

Similar rules apply to games which are not abstracted high level wargames but close combat simulations, where the brutality shown in my opinion is no problem,
but at the moment the brutality shown is related to a a positive context it gets morally questionable.

So to sum it up, in my opinion the answer depends on how the game itself treats historical events in a moral context.
Is it biased? Does it raise moral questions by itself and provides subjective answers? If it does, I would say it is morally questionable, independent of where the bias
lies.

WitP is fare away from danger to fall within that category...

< Message edited by LoBaron -- 11/10/2012 9:38:38 AM >


_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 34
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 2:27:59 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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I agree with LoBaron and much of what others have said. Participating in a conflict simulation (for those who disklike the term "playing wargames") does not dishonor the dead per se. On the contrary, it can be a way to commemorate events and participants and to learn more about. It becomes an issue if the game shows the wrong things in the wrong light.
I just want to add that even in WitP, modders can create moral issues as well. I remember a thread a while ago about secret weapons where a forumite posted screenshots of his mod with (among other non-issue units) a POW Camp unit, Unit 516 Chemical Warfare Brigade and a "Human Experiments Brigade" - see http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3076708 Now, if this was done to remind the player about the atrocities committed by Japan it might still be acceptable - but if intended as "secret weapons" combat units?

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 11/11/2012 1:28:14 AM >


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Post #: 35
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 6:04:22 PM   
Joe D.


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

I fully understand Yoshio-san's point of view ...


... but I find it ironic as the Imperial Japanese had wargamed Midway and other operations.

However, I wonder if Yoshio-san was secretly more disturbed at the pospect of winning the contest.

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Post #: 36
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/10/2012 6:07:25 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
I just want to add that even in WitP, modders can create moral issues as well. I remember a thread a while ago about secret weapons were a forumite posted screenshots of his mod with (among other non-issue units) a POW Camp unit, Unit 516 Chemical Warfare Brigade and a "Human Experiments Brigade" - see http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3076708 Now, if this was done to remind the player about the atrocities committed by Japan it might still be acceptable - but if intended as "secret weapons" combat units?


You hit the nail LST. One can use a small modification to suddently deliver an ethical message and this has the potential to change a whole game from neutral to morally questionable.
The content of your link is a good example, although I never regarded 5th tanks as more than a below average troll...

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 37
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 12:49:48 AM   
jetjockey


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+1

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Post #: 38
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 10:24:35 AM   
Cannonfodder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget
I just want to add that even in WitP, modders can create moral issues as well. I remember a thread a while ago about secret weapons were a forumite posted screenshots of his mod with (among other non-issue units) a POW Camp unit, Unit 516 Chemical Warfare Brigade and a "Human Experiments Brigade" - see http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3076708 Now, if this was done to remind the player about the atrocities committed by Japan it might still be acceptable - but if intended as "secret weapons" combat units?


You hit the nail LST. One can use a small modification to suddently deliver an ethical message and this has the potential to change a whole game from neutral to morally questionable.
The content of your link is a good example, although I never regarded 5th tanks as more than a below average troll...


You don't even need a game to deliver an ethical message.. You only need a server and a message board. Not everything the internet brings is good...

_____________________________


"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor


(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 39
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 2:41:04 PM   
LoBaron


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No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 40
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 3:08:23 PM   
Empire101


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...


+1


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Our lives may be more boring than those who lived in apocalyptic times,
but being bored is greatly preferable to being prematurely dead because of some ideological fantasy.
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(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 41
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 6:13:10 PM   
dr.hal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

dr.hal, thanks for this interesting topic! Such threads are always a great read.


You are most welcome LoBaron. I too enjoy a good debate. Thus this thread.

However I would ask readers to refrain from speculation as to Yoshio san's motives. I'm the only person on this site that knows the man. The purpose of this thread is not to speculate as to why Yoshio san feels the way he does, but to look at the target of that thought, the concept of wargaming. I too see many values in doing this (as well as reading history books, etc.). One quick example; in playing the game Manassas (an old board game that I've never seen anywhere else but in my house!) and then walking the battlefield I realized that Evans (and his Demi-Brigade) had little choice other than to do what he did, the delaying action before the federal hook on the confederates left, and the game, well researched, showed me that it was something that could be accomplished with reasonable skill and a bit of luck. It was the first time I gained insight into a actual situation through gaming. It was a "moment" if you will. I've had many since and have enjoyed them all.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 11/12/2012 12:27:45 PM >

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 42
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/11/2012 11:51:53 PM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...

R0flc0pt3r...u n00b ?

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Post #: 43
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/12/2012 3:43:27 PM   
Yaab


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I understand Yoshio-san. There is a scenario in TOAW III dealing with Polish September Campaign in 1939. I opened it but I couldn't get myself to play it. When I play Japan/Allies in WITP:AE or Axis/Soviets in HPS games I am emotionally detached in a world of hexes, strategy and simulation. I couldn't achieve the same detachment with Polish units in front of me and my family's war stories in the back of my head...

(in reply to Gräfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 44
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/12/2012 8:06:03 PM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...

R0flc0pt3r...u n00b ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXdYylKnv9A

Sorry, but I was unable to find a btter reason to post that link.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Gräfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 45
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/12/2012 8:15:47 PM   
dr.hal


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So much for the "rare exceptions..."!!!!!!!

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 46
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/13/2012 1:07:03 AM   
Gräfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

No wonder. Every brainwashed, semiconcious idiot is suddently able to communicate. Matrixgames forums is a rare exception to general internet chaos, stupidity and loss of manners...

R0flc0pt3r...u n00b ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXdYylKnv9A

Sorry, but I was unable to find a btter reason to post that link.



_____________________________



(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 47
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/13/2012 4:45:06 AM   
crsutton


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Frankly, I just have never given it much thought.

I will say that I have never played modern war simulations. WWII is as far as I have gone. No Vietnam, Korea, Grenada, Iraq, No cold war what ifs. Maybe they were just too close. Maybe they just never appealed to me. But as boomer, the specter of nukes in my life might have been a factor too. I just have never been interested in any simulation that had nuclear weapons.

Of course, 1945 is coming up in my campaign with Viberpol and I am seriously planning on dropping one or two fat ones on his ass...So I guess there is a first time for everything.

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RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/13/2012 5:28:41 AM   
John 3rd


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Go get him CR!


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Post #: 49
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 9:44:29 AM   
Hjarloprillar

 

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Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[the lament of the armchair Admiral]

< Message edited by Hjarloprillar -- 11/14/2013 10:46:20 AM >

(in reply to tocaff)
Post #: 50
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 11:06:35 AM   
LoBaron


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hjarloprillar

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.


Iain Banks, one of my all time favourite authors. R.I.P.

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Hjarloprillar)
Post #: 51
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 11:18:52 AM   
mind_messing

 

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The simple truth is that humans love to play at war. We've just moved from jousting and fencing to computer games and paintballing.

The sooner everyone comes to accept that, the sooner we'd have one less moral dilemma to deal with.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 52
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 11:39:08 AM   
catwhoorg


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It is impossible for me to play this game without some personalization.

My wife's paternal grandfather was captured at Singapore. In addition her stepfather's father, was also captured. It is an amazing chance that both survived the subsequent years in POW camps. Neither was every truly fully whole again.

Her maternal grandfather was a mechanic at RAF Ranchi. I do tend to use this base rather than others round it as a small personal tribute to the man.


My father and I both had short terms in the Territorial Army. My mothers cousin skippered a Royal Navy Sub, another was a Para officer. My nephew (through my 2nd wife) is a serving US marine.

All of us know the power that 'wargaming' can have on a real life outcome for the military.

I do it as a challenge, and to remember and honour those who have gone before me. Maybe to impart some of the lessons on the younger generation at times (when playing with them).

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 53
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 11:39:45 AM   
Xargun

 

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I think the issue your friend had was when he was growing up he was told all the horror stories of living in japan during the war - all the shortages and as it came closer to the end, the bombings. I would expect no difference from children of those who lived in Germany or London (or everywhere else this happened). To him it wasn't a game, it struck directly home in his personal history and that is sometimes hard for people to portray - especially given different cultures and how they look upon things. I bet if you found a new young student from Japan who was into war games, he wouldn't have a problem play WitP as its more distant from him and his family.

For myself, I've been a WW 2 buff since grade school. Very interested in the subject for a long time. WitP (WitPAE) and such have been an awesome experience for me. I play the game and it makes me realize the struggles and difficulties these brave men and women went through to put up a fight for their side (doesn't matter which) and the horrible conditions they did it in. To me when I read about WW II and play the game in a small way I am honoring the sacrifices they all made - by becoming more informed. Being more informed will enable me to teach my son about the sacrifices made in WW II and educate him to make him a better person (very little about WW II is taught in schools anymore). Perhaps down the road I can even bring another wargamer into the fold but that will be his decision.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 54
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 12:03:25 PM   
Sieppo


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Humans and especially men are warlike by nature. It is good that they can play it out in a game as opposed to real war. Think of aggressive people being able use their aggression up in practicing martial arts etc and not fighting people on the street. In my opinion playing a warGAME does not disrespect the dead but then again it WOULD be different if the game was about concentration camps/prisons (I'm sure there was terrible suffering and death in the armies also) - I think it's a point of _personal_ values and how much weight one wants to put on them. In the end I don't think a wargame really glorifies war that much that it would end up producing MORE suffering than enjoyment into this world.

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Post #: 55
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 12:07:23 PM   
Sieppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hjarloprillar

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.


Iain Banks, one of my all time favourite authors. R.I.P.


Me too! R.I.P.


_____________________________

- Playing Japan is hell. Sweet sweet hell.
- Failing CAPs and escorts since 12/2012.

(in reply to LoBaron)
Post #: 56
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 12:14:37 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Humans and especially men are warlike by nature. It is good that they can play it out in a game as opposed to real war. Think of aggressive people being able use their aggression up in practicing martial arts etc and not fighting people on the street.



That's a nice theory, pity there's utterly no evidence to support it, and everything to suggest the opposite happening.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 57
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 12:28:51 PM   
Sieppo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Humans and especially men are warlike by nature. It is good that they can play it out in a game as opposed to real war. Think of aggressive people being able use their aggression up in practicing martial arts etc and not fighting people on the street.



That's a nice theory, pity there's utterly no evidence to support it, and everything to suggest the opposite happening.


You trolling :D? Or sarcastic? Look at the history of men with all the wars and "continuations of politics" and the need for violent sports and other rites to simulate it. Even chimps do killing raids to their neighboring packs etcetc.

EDIT: as for martial arts for a good way to vent aggressive energy, I have a lifelong experience as a practitioner and a teacher (there always are a few bad apples).

< Message edited by Sieppo -- 11/14/2013 1:32:12 PM >


_____________________________

- Playing Japan is hell. Sweet sweet hell.
- Failing CAPs and escorts since 12/2012.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 58
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 2:09:11 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Humans and especially men are warlike by nature. It is good that they can play it out in a game as opposed to real war. Think of aggressive people being able use their aggression up in practicing martial arts etc and not fighting people on the street.



That's a nice theory, pity there's utterly no evidence to support it, and everything to suggest the opposite happening.


You trolling :D? Or sarcastic? Look at the history of men with all the wars and "continuations of politics" and the need for violent sports and other rites to simulate it. Even chimps do killing raids to their neighboring packs etcetc.

EDIT: as for martial arts for a good way to vent aggressive energy, I have a lifelong experience as a practitioner and a teacher (there always are a few bad apples).


Would a troll back up his point with evidence?

http://illinois.edu/lb/files/2009/03/26/9293.pdf

Skip to the conclusion. I can find you other studies if that doesn't suffice.

Catharsis does nothing to reduce aggression.

(in reply to Sieppo)
Post #: 59
RE: The Philosophy of Wargaming - 11/14/2013 2:18:17 PM   
LoBaron


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I just had the weird vision of an interesting debate collapsing into a useless 'gaming and violence' dispute. Please don't!

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

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Post #: 60
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