Matrix Games

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

I can understand some of your friend's reservations from the Japanese side. There was little good that came out of that war for them and the memory of it. 'Gaming' their past feelings and national destruction must be difficult for them, particularly if they lost family members in the conflict or the bombings of the home islands. "Dishonoring the Dead" may be the closest translated approximation of his feelings on the matter.

These are not my feelings. I do struggle with keeping an eye on the historical pain and suffering of the war when I play the Allies. This impacts my gameplay in that I won't / I can't 'throw away' the lives of my digital forces. Emotionalism? Perhaps. But that's the way I play.

It is difficult for me to balance aggressive tendencies against the Allies (particularly American forces) whilest playing the Japanese (or Germans). I *must* play to cause as much damage to the Allies as I can. I can't say that I've not felt a ping of guilt (shame?) when sinking the Enterprise or butchering Allied troops on the ground.

Dishonoring the dead? Not really. So long as an eye is kept on the real-life struggles and sacrifices modelled, it's not disrespectful. The problem is when we lose sight of those sacrifices and human loss. Wargaming prevents this slide into the oblivion of the forgotten past.

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
I played the old Avalon Hill boardgame 'Midway" with my father, a World War II veteran. I can tell you that he certainly didn't think it was dishonring the dead. In fact, I think most World War II veterans would welcome the "tribute" given to the incredible struggle they participated in. Dishonor the dead? Heavens no. We are honoring them.

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ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
It is not "how" you approach this game.

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ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
The game is an abstraction of the war (the strategic and tactical situation).. You can't begin to understand the suffering of the people involved by playing any game...

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ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
That's what I am worried about because that might be the future of the world my son will grow up in if we forget..

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ORIGINAL: dr.hal
I have a philosophy question for all of the forum folks in WITP. [...] He said “I can’t play such a game as it dishonors the dead.”

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ORIGINAL: geofflambert

All the significant militaries in the world wargame past battles. Are they all "disrespecting the dead"? If so, the disrespect extends to the future dead they enlist or draft, which could very well include themselves.

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ORIGINAL: jmalter

thanks for initiating this discussion, dr. hal.

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ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I have a philosophy question for all of the forum folks in WITP. But first I need to give you some background. When I was studying back in the 80s it was at the University of Aberdeen in Scotland. While there I met a lot of other international students, one of whom is a fellow from Japan whose name is Yoshio san. Back then we were still in the board game era. As a student of wargames since the early 60s I had with me my board games, one of which was “War in the Pacific” by Victory Games. As you probably know, this was the precursor to out present computer game. So it was pretty much like what we have today although very primitive with LOTS of playing pieces. I tried to get Yoshio san to play against me as I thought it would be interesting to have a Japanese national on one side and an American on the other! He politely heard my proposal and then studied the “rules” of the game. He came back to me later and said all the rules game him a headache, as it was all so complicated. He continued to tell me that, aside from the rules being a concern, he had decided that he couldn’t play the game. His rationale was very simple and easy to comprehend. He said “I can’t play such a game as it dishonors the dead.” He further stated that it makes “a game out of the sacrifices of so many people that it is not right”. I’ve often wondered about that conversation over the years (Yoshio san is still a very good friend of mine). Yet I’ve never been able to talk about that “philosophy” of gaming to anyone since; until now. So my question to you all (ya’ll for out southern players) is simple, does what we do dishonor those that died making this “game” possible? Do we make recreational fun out of the deaths of thousand upon thousands? Before I let this go, I have a disclaimer; I too have relatives that died in Pacific, an American uncle at Okinawa and Dutch relatives in the DEI and am somewhat aware of the sacrifice that others, even those close to my family, have made. I for one don’t think I do them dishonor. I see this whole concept of gaming as a way of better understanding their sacrifice. Yet, I’m always thinking in the back of my mind, is Yoshio san right? I look forward to your views. Hal

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


I believe that a lot (maybe not all) of his reticence is that his nation was on the losing end of the game you were offering. Plus, as in real life, the japanese player will be on the end of a beating if the allied player is anywhere near competent.

His nation did not fight a good war, as with the Nazi Germany approach they alienated many of the nations they were "liberating" Their chance of having strong support from the native Javans, Burmese, New Guineans was ruined by their arrogant treatment of the locals.

What if you offered a game of the Russo-Japanese War, or got totally neutral and refought Normandy, Alamein or The Bluge??

My approach to playing wargames since the late 60's or early 70's has been using them as tools to learn history, to view with a reasonable accuracy the terrain, the men and their leaders. Why did Patton, Monty, Napoleon, Marlborough use those tactics, What made Rommel so succesful, How could little Israel smash its neighbours.

I dont belittle the sacrifice of millions, my ancestors include a KIA at Gallipoli, Gassing at Broodseinde, an Uncle who walked through Bardia, Greece & New Guinea and 2 others who fought in New Guinea. My Mothers cousin was taken POW in Java and was lost at sea when the Maru was sunk by a USN sub. I played at soldiers for a few weekends a year but was never going to join up.
Currently I have a nephew who gets around exotic places.

Far from belittling their sacrifice, I believe I far more understand and respect their efforts than those who want to conveniently forget them.

This question has to be asked from time to time as younger generations start these simulations, they aren't "Just Games" They have some meaning to them.

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ORIGINAL: JeffK
I believe that a lot (maybe not all) of his reticence is that his nation was on the losing end of the game you were offering.